Warlock Balancing

[Ziindarax]

Your comment communicates inexperience with Shiradi:

1) You DO get to do helpless damage against enemies struck by nerve venom. At level 20, my Epic Antique Great axe gains a significant damage boost (thanks to sense weakness) to damage on foes stunned by nerve venom (much to my surprise, making this destiny excellent for aura warlocks who can effect an AOE crowd control). Additionally, I am able to clear Epic Elite mobs using Shiradi just fine (even though I must use skill to survive the throngs).

2) Anyone running sentinel with mana will be able to enjoy those same benefits and near invulnerability; it's not that warlocks are overpowered, it's that you're making design choices that nearly get them there because that is what the tree is DESIGNED to do.

3) Care to define what a "triple exploit" build is? Because as far as I am aware, the only exploit builds that are out there now are the monk tree builds with whirlwind strike (able to strike multiple times if I recall the feat correctly), and wolf builds. To say nothing of Fury Monchers who can really crank out the damage if they wanted to.

You also only chose to address one part of my sentence rather than the whole of it (which mentioned Draconic - if you're running fiend/Great old one warlocks, who benefit from the acid/fire spell power. They do quite a lot of damage, and the wing surge is quite effective. Even more so, the destiny's extra aura and acid damage add a nice punch). Legendary Dreadnought warlocks who run in melee spec (like I do with a greataxe) enjoy quite a bit of damage reduction and significant melee DPS boost. Crusader also grants a nice mix of dps and healing (I see them as being in between Sentinel and Angel).

If I recall correctly, Quells can shut down your divine destiny abilities as well (including reconstruct, renew, and more), and they should be more common than they currently are (to make intercession ward items more useful).

Why would I trade 281 HP/sec from renewal, and 30 more HP/sec from US healing amplification for an insignificant 14 damage/spell of Shiradi, on attacks that are already up to 40 damage die? To try to damage 30-500k hp mobs?

That's a joke right?

There is a reason only triple exploit builds use shiradi, and if you look you won't even be able to find non-triple exploit epic sorcs or wiz in shiradi on your entire server. It's somewhere between awful and worse than awful, which is why you go US instead. It adds the same amount of dps (almost 0), but at least adds healing. The only reason you go shiradi on a warlock is if the mobs aren't threatening already, for entertainment value of nerve venom. It doesn't really even speed killing of groups up, since you still have to do non-helpless damage to the mobs in a group that randomly don't get hit by nerve venom.

[Tilomere]

Your comment communicates inexperience with Shiradi:

1) You DO get to do helpless damage against enemies struck by nerve venom.

I know you get helpless damage, but when you only nerve venom 3 of a group of 5 mobs, you still have to aoe for full mob hp without helpless damage to kill the group due to the 2 non-helpless targets. So Shiradi is more of an entertainment thing than anything else once mob hp begins to vastly exceed proc damage.

It's not just my experience. It is the server of Cannith.

3) Care to define what a "triple exploit" build is?

A build using 3 exploits.

These aren't the forums to talk about what exploits which builds are using. Make a post on the other forum if you want to talk about it.

[Ziindarax]

I know you get helpless damage, but when you only nerve venom 3 of a group of 5 mobs, you still have to aoe for full mob hp without helpless damage to kill the group due to the 2 non-helpless targets. So Shiradi is more of an entertainment thing than anything else.

It's not just my experience. It is the server of Cannith.



A build using 3 exploits.

These aren't the forums to talk about what exploits which builds are using. Make a post on the other forum if you want to talk about it.

The presence of so many warlocks (they're not as common here on orien) is a symptom of a greater problem - DC casting is worthless, and to put it nicely, the non-warlock casters are not fun to play unless you're a shiradi magic missile build. A very simple solution is to buff DC casting, and make it relevant again. I guarantee you, people will go back to playing the other casters over warlocks (especially once they are buffed to that point of being better than warlocks at casting actual spells [like they are in pnp].

As far as exploits go, I hope you've bug reported all of them (can PM cocomajobo if you want to expedite them getting noticed and fixed), and as far as the other forums go, I don't go there, nor intend to.

[slarden]

I know you get helpless damage, but when you only nerve venom 3 of a group of 5 mobs, you still have to aoe for full mob hp without helpless damage to kill the group due to the 2 non-helpless targets. So Shiradi is more of an entertainment thing than anything else once mob hp begins to vastly exceed proc damage.

It's not just my experience. It is the server of Cannith.

People are Sarlona are able to make shiradi work. Do you think all these people are asking for nerfs because they suck? Well they don't suck, but in my opinion they aren't OP either.

I am running a simple wizard 17 / fvs 3 shiradi build and it's clearing content well. I don't know how it stacks up against the sorc/wiz/fvs shiradi zombie but I really don't care as it's working well for me. I like having energy drain, meteor swarm, polar ray, power word stun and black dragon bolt in my arsenal.

I am also digging the 25% incorporeal in wraith form.

[Tilomere]

You also only chose to address one part of my sentence rather than the whole of it (which mentioned Draconic ... Legendary Dreadnought ... Angel).

Double your hp/sec from being in US. Stand in the middle of twice as many mobs.

If SE, also double your mana procs with feed on magic due to standing in the middle of twice as many mobs, for twice as many free spells, each of which hit twice as many mobs that you are standing in the middle of, and find yourself limited by spell cool downs.



Slarden I'm glad your shiradi build is doing fine, but we can't talk about why such builds are doing fine here, because we can't talk about exploits. Another forum.

[slarden]

Double your hp/sec from being in US. Stand in the middle of twice as many mobs.

If SE, also double your mana procs with feed on magic due to standing in the middle of twice as many mobs, for twice as many free spells, each of which hit twice as many mobs that you are standing in the middle of, limited by spell cool downs.

I definitely think Unyielding sentinel should reduce spellpower (except positive) by 25% or so. There should be more penalty for the extra survivability gained from a tanking destiny.

That might actually be a better nerf than nerfing warlock.

[Tilomere]

I definitely think Unyielding sentinel should reduce spellpower (except positive) by 25% or so. There should be more penalty for the extra survivability gained from a tanking destiny.

That might actually be a better nerf than nerfing warlock.

Thematically, doesn't make sense. EDs are abilities on top of your character, not replacing a portion of your characters power. Your character is supposed to grow 20-30, not just change and specialize for a role.

Besides, dire charge needs a nerf more than US. It can be made more effective than US at mitigating damage, and allows for more damage than US, and is only a single feat.

I would greatly prefer to have a DC 120 dire charge on my warlock than an ED. I think I'm getting pretty close to having both though. Will see what happens in U32.

[slarden]

Thematically, doesn't make sense. EDs are abilities on top of your character, not replacing a portion of your characters power. Your character is supposed to grow 20-30, not just change and specialize for a role.

Besides, dire charge needs a nerf more than US. It can be made more effective than US at mitigating damage, and allows for more damage than US, and is only a single feat.

I would greatly prefer to have a DC 120 dire charge on my warlock than an ED. I think I'm getting pretty close to having both though. Will see what happens in U32.

It makes complete sense thematically. It's a tanking destiny and there should be trade offs. I would be fine if it was confined to just using the hp booster. If you use that hp booster there is a spell power penalty for each tier. That way it's optional if you want to take the spell point penalty.

Again Dire charge is not a warlock ability. Arcane pulse is almost always a better choice for a caster. The range and duration is short enough that I don't have a problem with it. It's annoying to deal with kiters without it.

[Chai]

I definitely think Unyielding sentinel should reduce spellpower (except positive) by 25% or so. There should be more penalty for the extra survivability gained from a tanking destiny.

That might actually be a better nerf than nerfing warlock.

That's akin (and as terribly thought out) to saying LD should reduce PRR by 25%. There should be a survivability loss as a trade off for all that extra DPS. Yet it also adds PRR. No one seems to be complaining about the "lack of trade off" there.

If people are claiming theres no trade off for being in Unyielding sentinel, that feedback shouldn't be taken seriously. Theres plenty of DPS for warlocks in non US destinies so they are already trading off having to be a lower tier DPS to gain the survivability.

Destinies are in addition to the character's abilities, not a replacement for the other abilities. On a warlock its far quicker to demolish content on a shiradi for instance, and being in US trades that DPS and no fail CC for survivability. There already is a trade off.

[Chai]

So your solution is to have every single class be an easy button, good for noobs?

Every single class will be immune to death, and able to clear large groups of monsters with ease?

That's your solution to make this a better game?

Doesn't need to be every single class. DDO having an easy entry or two into tougher content helps people with far less time on their hands.

I thought we weren't against paying to circumvent time consumption. Where are my "it doesn't negatively affect me if someone else pays to get ahead" folks at nowdays? That's what people who buy and play warlock are doing. Wheres the rabid support for this which used to exist?

[Thrudh]

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I think he is saying he would rather see focus on divine pass than warlock nerf.

He said bring every other class up to warlock level.

[Ziindarax]

Double your hp/sec from being in US. Stand in the middle of twice as many mobs.

If SE, also double your mana procs with feed on magic due to standing in the middle of twice as many mobs, for twice as many free spells, each of which hit twice as many mobs that you are standing in the middle of, and find yourself limited by spell cool downs.



Slarden I'm glad your shiradi build is doing fine, but we can't talk about why such builds are doing fine here, because we can't talk about exploits. Another forum.

Again, the flaw with your argument concerning warlocks being over-powered lies in the fact that you're using a destiny that is designed to tank and heal spam; where I sit, that's not a valid argument for nerfing warlock because I can give you about a couple dozen non-warlock builds that could stand in those same number of mobs in unyielding, and kill just as many of those same mobs even faster than the said warlock. E.G. A wraith-form shiradi archmage USING (not exploiting) the favored soul just reward proc to get more temporary spell points.

I can give you my "Hammer of the Gods" build that I used a few years ago, which was more than capable of tanking epic elite Temple of Elemental Evil mobs (mobs who would kill even a warlock pretty quickly unless you're spamming every healing option, which again, doesn't mean the warlock is op). His DPS might not be the best unless you run Blitz, but he will survive it if you throw it at him (especially if he's in sentinel - builds like him are WHY the devs nerfed prr/mrr yields in the first place).

Next up, Ive got the non-warlock Fist of the Metalline Dragon - A BLADEFORGED 12 monk, 4 paladin, 4 favored soul build who benefits from reconstruct and healing ameliorating strike - with him having some spell points, riding in Sentinel for spam heals, attached handwraps (of vampirism), I can turn ANY weapon into a metal-breaker (except for mithral, but only Sor'Jek and Stormreaver use mithral DR, no one else does) with law and good thanks to blessed blades twisted in. In Unyielding, I would be more invulnerable than the warlock (unless he too splashes paladin and monk levels) because I would have superior saves, impeccable defenses, a high attack speed. And because I can chug a yugoloth potion, and maintain constant healing, I can spam max-ranked divine sacrifice with a good chance of it double striking. Add in scion of shadowfell, and I've got an end-game monk who can crank out damage, dodge a lot of it, and truly kick some butt with not a terribly lot of risk to him.

Going a step further, I've got a cleric 11, fighter 6, paladin 3 (for disease and fear immunity, as well as saves) who is able to obtain an extra +1 to his criticals on khopeshes, enjoys heavy armor and shield defenses, has decent saves, and is able to cover just about all of his needs in one package - add in the sentinel destiny, and I can spam cheap heals all day, and be very difficult to kill (especially if I decide to twist in consecration and it's activating enhancement). I can keep going, but the point I am trying to make is, by knowing and understanding the game mechanics, a person can create builds that are truly powerful, and the new level 28 crafted loot that's coming out will make a character even more powerful (litany in a docent for me, yay! )

Gear wise: Legendary Concordant Greensteel has a proc that gives you way more temporary spell points than warlock, and it's practically guaranteed but on 60 second timer), the tripe positive one gives you 1k temporary hitpoints as % chance proc, and the earth one gives guaranteed acid damage on proc for a half -second cooldown.

Oh and one other thing, you can drink the intelligence Yugoloth potions to regain spell points for it's long duration - the amount you get back is easily enough to cover the cost of a renewal, and a couple magic missile attacks. If utilizing sorcerer levels to increase casting speed, understand that sorcerers were intended to be able to cast spells faster than wizard, and it's intended to stack with quicken (which may be how they can cast missiles so quickly)- http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer That's not an exploit, that's a game mechanic, and so is the epic past life feat which grants 10% quicker spell casting with all three past lives.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Cooldown

[slarden]

That's akin (and as terribly thought out) to saying LD should reduce PRR by 25%. There should be a survivability loss as a trade off for all that extra DPS. Yet it also adds PRR. No one seems to be complaining about the "lack of trade off" there.

If people are claiming theres no trade off for being in Unyielding sentinel, that feedback shouldn't be taken seriously. Theres plenty of DPS for warlocks in non US destinies so they are already trading off having to be a lower tier DPS to gain the survivability.

Destinies are in addition to the character's abilities, not a replacement for the other abilities. On a warlock its far quicker to demolish content on a shiradi for instance, and being in US trades that DPS and no fail CC for survivability. There already is a trade off.

They are already talking about a nerf, I think nerfing all ES warlocks because a few have been trying to get warlocks nerfed for months by showing warlocks with max con, max hp gear, shield feats including shield deflection in US are hard to kill. Not to mention they have high end past lifes and gear. That crazy survivability comes more from maxing con, 45 PRR from shields and more hp and prr from US, past lifes and gears - not from the warlock tree. A paladin or fighter can do the same exact thing by going into US instead of LD and killing more slowly but without any real risk of dying.

If it's heroic they are worried about the power there comes from cone and wave not ES.

If that is bothering Turbine they need to look beyond the class and look at the overall builds.

Another option is simply not allowing US hp bonus to stack with ES hp bonus.

[Ellihor]

Besides, dire charge needs a nerf more than US. It can be made more effective than US at mitigating damage, and allows for more damage than US, and is only a single feat.

I would greatly prefer to have a DC 120 dire charge on my warlock than an ED. I think I'm getting pretty close to having both though. Will see what happens in U32.

Dire charge is an ability that improves the homogenization of the game. It is one more step in the direction of turning everyone into the "camoneer lv 30". I agree it should be nerfed (btw sorry for derailing, but I prefer to stay away from this thread)

[Vint]

If that is bothering Turbine they need to look beyond the class and look at the overall builds.

I think this is the problem though.

If WL's were totally deleted from the game right now, I'm sure you (or the other number crunchers) could construct a new build that would be just as powerful. As long as Turbine keeps introducing new trees, enhancements, classes, races and other things into the mix, players will continue ways to find the "best" build.

Turbine has wasted a lot of time and resources over the years bowing down and nerfing builds/classes/races and within weeks of the nerf, another build comes to the front and here comes the complainers again.

I have never ran a legendary quest in my life, so I am not trying to keep an easy button toon, I am just tired of the constant complaints when we have not had any real balance since the early exploiter builds.

[Ziindarax]

More powerful. I've been seriously contemplating replacing my warlock first life farmer with a bf +1 heart/alignment change monstrosity that the game was never designed around.

Do it, they're fun!

Bladeforged are pretty much great at anything, especially if it doesn't involve their penalized stats of wisdom or charisma.

My GoO pact Bladeforged is fairly decent at what he can do (DC casting isn't one of his forte's sadly), though I have found Create Thrall to be effective even against epic elite hezrou's in the Spinner of Shadows quest (despite not speccing for charisma DC casting - higher level epics is where it becomes more useless, imo).

[Thrudh]

That's akin (and as terribly thought out) to saying LD should reduce PRR by 25%. There should be a survivability loss as a trade off for all that extra DPS. Yet it also adds PRR. No one seems to be complaining about the "lack of trade off" there.

I'll complain about PRR in Blitz... It would be very well thought out for Blitz to REDUCE PRR.

Just like classic D&D barb rage gives an AC penalty.

Balance is all about offense vs defense. An ability that boosts offense AND defense is a no-brainer. Blitz absolutely should give a PRR PENALTY, not a bonus.

Blitz is a terrible epic "moment".

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't really care, because I find warlocks kind of boring to play but here are some simple "fixes":

1. Make evil mobs immune to evil damage.
2. Put a reflex saving throw on base Eldritch Blast damage.

Never have this discussion again.

[slarden]

I don't really care, because I find warlocks kind of boring to play but here are some simple "fixes":

1. Make evil mobs immune to evil damage.
2. Put a reflex saving throw on base Eldritch Blast damage.

Never have this discussion again.

Aren't a huge percentage of enemies evil? That would make utterdark pointless - they might as well remove it.

Blast should be subject to the same save as pact rather than automatically reflex. The pacts should mean something.

[PsychoBlonde]

Balance is all about offense vs defense.

This is nonsense, in fact, most of the stuff in the game ultimately boosts both of these in some way. An "offense" build does not wind up at level 30 with 5 hit points and a million damage. It is a lot more complex and nuanced than this.

It is a lot more interesting to trade different TYPES of defense for each other and different TYPES of offense for each other.

The problem with warlock (inasmuch as there is one) is that they don't have to PAY for their damage. They don't have to spend SP to make their eldritch blast work the way other casters do. They don't have to stack a ton of feats to make their combat style work the way non-caster builds do. They don't have to stack one stat to the sky to be effective the way pretty much everyone else does. They can be lazy and go full turtle because there's no opportunity cost involved.