Warlock Balancing

[Ziindarax]

Sorry for coming late to the party,

Warlock is easy button,
Good for noobs and tr trains
And ESP for soloing

I would say leave it alone.
Bring everything else up to its standard

An un nerf bat
for say divines.

This one hundred percent. Give favored souls abilities that are similar to warlocks since they're supposed to have a personal connection to their gods. And favored spells similar to pact magic that matches the diety:

Vulkoor - deception (invisibility, displacement, etc. Maybe a scorrow form).

Lord of Blades - mix bag of offense/defense (artificer barrier spell, reconstruct spells).

Silver Flame (Divine Punishment, banishment spells, Order's wrath).

Amaunator (nuke spells - sun bolt, sun beam, other laser spells)

Court of the Dead (healing spells for undead, necromancy / insta-kills).

Sovereign Host - Additional healing/support/curative spells.

[Tlorrd]

Again, I smell BS. How is it possible to have PRR that high (I assume you're going robes or MAYBE medium armor), when I have a level 20 pure warlock who is no where NEAR 1-2-3k hit points (even at level 30)? Either I am a really terrible builder, or you are lying just to communicate that warlocks need super nerfed. The average warlock (myself included) are not able to push hitpoints that high. Please provide proof (and screenshots) of your alleged build, along with a break down of hit points and gear.

T1 PRR and MRR enhancements are not working right for me with my heavy armor build, so I am only getting 10 instead of 16, but still. I am at 75prr, 54mrr. Despite having all this, I am not able to solo Legendary Elite content as the mobs are too large in numbers and hit too hard (with players, I can play just fine). Epic Elites, I can play just fine, but I am not god mode - it requires active movement on my part to stay alive, even with displacement.

Those 2.9-3k HPs I have are at cap (level 30), as are the PRR/MRR #s. I'll post a vid shortly when I get back home tonight.

[Ziindarax]

Those 2.9-3k HPs I have are at cap (level 30), as are the PRR/MRR #s. I'll post a vid shortly when I get back home tonight.

Fair enough (and good enough for me), but how exactly do you get your hit points anywhere near those levels? I am serious, I have not been able to get anywhere around 2k hit points - are you doing toughness + epic toughness?

[Tlorrd]

Fair enough (and good enough for me), but how exactly do you get your hit points anywhere near those levels? I am serious, I have not been able to get anywhere around 2k hit points - are you doing toughness + epic toughness?

ES warlock core gives 20% bonus to JP, unyielding sentinel enhancement gives 20% bonus. US also gives more bonus HP. If you go con based .... And add on shining through temp HP bonus, you can easily get to 3k ... And I'm on the lower end since I have not totally maxxed my con.

[slarden]

Having high con does not equal defenses ... Also my original builds went Int based and not con or cha. Shield feats only give PRR ... Defense in this is game is more than just HP and PRR. You still need to avoid damage while in LE quests. There are multiple ways to do this and that is the key to being survivable, not just high con and PRR.

I run without all those easy buttons so I know all about tactic-based mitigation.

The fact is you stated previously stated you maxed con and dumped charisma. You take several shield feats and go into unyielding sentinel. You even take feats like shield deflection.

If you don't think those are helping you survive why do you give up dps to take those? That makes no sense. Obviously you take those because they help.

But there is only one thing turbine needs to do to fix this - make more eld blast subject to the save so people have to choose between dps and defense. Tweaking the trees won't fix the problem - it has to be the eld blast and light/chaos procs and how much is subject to a save.

[Duetotheseverity]

Remove temporary hp completely.

Put an sp cost for bursts.

SR save for bursts and fix tentacles so it don't ignore monsters saves.

thats a good start.

[Ziindarax]

Remove temporary hp completely.

Put an sp cost for bursts.

SR save for bursts and fix tentacles so it don't ignore monsters saves.

thats a good start.

Bursts and blasts are damage spells, if you subject them to spell resistance, an unintended side effect will be that ALL damage spells will be subjected to spell resistance, and since Epic Drow, fiends, and more have REALLY good spell resist (and few players ever spec for evocation), you kill the casters off altogether. Everyone will play melee/ranged. As for tentacles, they already have a save component on there - I've seen enemies resist the effect of the hold.

ES warlock core gives 20% bonus to JP, unyielding sentinel enhancement gives 20% bonus. US also gives more bonus HP. If you go con based .... And add on shining through temp HP bonus, you can easily get to 3k ... And I'm on the lower end since I have not totally maxxed my con.

Hmm... I usually don't run tank destinies since they kinda gimp the caster (and melee) dps. Running unyielding sentinel does not mean that the class itself needs a nerf, it just means that you've found a way to stack multiple healing methods on one guy, which can be used during a rage (not an exploit, as far as I am aware). ANYONE running in this tank destiny with a heavy DPS set via heroics is going to be able to cream content / epic elite.

I thank you for your transparency, and apologize if I seem hostile and disrespectful Tlorrd. Running in Sentinel now, I can see where it's possible to push the envelope at level 22 close to 2k hitpoints, though. However, I do this at the cost of DPS.

As far as this all goes, I had a Dwarven paladin wizard cleric build that, before the devs nerfed PRR/MRR benefits (and split the nerfed amounts across several feats so fighters, at a cost, could get it back), was very hard to kill, and was mana efficient. I ran Divine Crusader, and had an awesome Legendary Warhammer that I found in the auction house (Scintillating shocking burst + Lightning strike and Brilliance and Fire Blast on a +3 warhammer), with my epic velah dragon armor I added fire burst to it... man that guy was a destroyer of foes, but his dps was like watching paint dry. He could solo EE, and I remember an encounter where he was completely mobbed in Temple of Elmental Evil's earth node - with Crusade running, I was slowly able to chip away and destroy my foes (at a cost of a lot of mana, mind you). Not a warlock, just super tank.

A Kensai Khopesh build running in power armor (heavy armor) with full epic past lives, paladin and cleric levels would not be too shabby on survivability, and running in Sentinel, could produce greater survivability than the warlock.

[Silverleafeon]

Problem is, who are those people and who decides?

I can think of 3 people who frequently provide articulate build advice... and quite often they disagree with one another.

LOL +1 well said

[niknight]

If I'm reading Steel's comment of "Endgame is not the only measure that counts" correctly, I think that they're targeting the logarithmic power curve that Warlock has in heroics in an attempt to rein in the splash and TR Enlightened Spirit builds. Making abilities like Brilliance/Shining Through and the two AoE's work off of Warlock level instead of flat effects should do that.

Also, for those people who decry all of the temporary HP that the Enlightened Spirit tree provides, please remember that Brilliance and Shining Through were added after WotC squashed Tier 4 CMW and Tier 5 1d8+1 per level positive healing.

[Ziindarax]

If I'm reading Steel's comment of "Endgame is not the only measure that counts" correctly, I think that they're targeting the logarithmic power curve that Warlock has in heroics in an attempt to rein in the splash and TR Enlightened Spirit builds. Making abilities like Brilliance/Shining Through and the two AoE's work off of Warlock level instead of flat effects should do that.

Also, for those people who decry all of the temporary HP that the Enlightened Spirit tree provides, please remember that Brilliance and Shining Through were added after WotC squashed Tier 4 CMW and Tier 5 1d8+1 per level positive healing.

That's right! Wizards didn't like the idea of a warlock being able to cast healing spells, and really, what we got was better than the healing anyways.

[PermaBanned]

Bring everything else up to its standard.

Like they did with melees & SwashBards?

[Tilomere]

Please provide proof (and screenshots) of your alleged build, along with a break down of hit points and gear.

3k total hp before primal scream, 200 prr, 150 mrr are level 30 stats for a first life human warlock, more or less, depending on how well geared they are.

[guardiankaiser]

3k total hp before primal scream, 200 prr, 150 mrr are level 30 stats for a first life human warlock, more or less, depending on how well geared they are.

unless those screen shots are faked, he isn't even using shine through... so those piles of temp are not from warlock (most likely from LGS), and I have said it a few times you only get 19 PRR from warlock (assuming using another Full Base Attack granting method) so you could get that PRR on most characters

I guess the point might be that he can make all those sacrifices and still deal damage... however hellball (still have bad DC), arcane pulse are not exactly warlock exclusive (nor made better by being a warlock except perhaps for having some good amount of SP for just them)

I would guess his damage in this build might be far below many other builds (and embarrassing on bosses w/o ruin), if your point is with bursting and threat enhancers he can pull enemies and survive... making him a tank I think that is exactly what the DEVs were intending with the enlightened spirit path... hence the threat boosting enhancement, and the whole being in the main tank destiny, not dieing is a prime requisite for said role, I would actually consider this a success rather then a "must be nerfed" situation

[Thrudh]

Sorry for coming late to the party,

Warlock is easy button,
Good for noobs and tr trains
And ESP for soloing

I would say leave it alone.
Bring everything else up to its standard

An un nerf bat
for say divines.

So your solution is to have every single class be an easy button, good for noobs?

Every single class will be immune to death, and able to clear large groups of monsters with ease?

That's your solution to make this a better game?

[Elfishski]

This sums it up. The vast majority of people crying for nerfs to Warlock are people that only play Heroic content. Heroic content should be considered the "beginners" area of DDO. Balancing classes with that in mind is asinine. The only measure that should be applied for balancing is end game performance and in that regard Warlock isn't even top three.

Listening to these people whine about how a Warlock had more kills in some level 10 quest is getting ridiculous.

No. I used to prefer epic content at cap 28 but they broke the balance of the game so badly at cap with level 30 that I consider it unplayably uninteresting.

Just because the game has moved on, and the focus (rightly) is on endgame, doesn't mean you should completely remove the old game and ignore it. Keep it fun for new players so they have a reason to get to cap, and for old players who prefer those levels. It's not hard to fix, either. Just scale a bunch of the overperforming abilities in heroic so they're just as good at level 30, but much weaker and more in line with other classes during heroic levels.

1. As slarden keeps suggesting, make it more of a tradeoff between dps and defence at all levels

2. scale some abilities based on warlock level + epic level.

Then warlock can perform just as well at cap although with more of a choice of role rather than all the things at once, and won't be as abjectly boring for everyone else in the group in heroic.

[slarden]

So your solution is to have every single class be an easy button, good for noobs?

Every single class will be immune to death, and able to clear large groups of monsters with ease?

That's your solution to make this a better game?

I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I think he is saying he would rather see focus on divine pass than warlock nerf.

[Ziindarax]

3k total hp before primal scream, 200 prr, 150 mrr are level 30 stats for a first life human warlock, more or less, depending on how well geared they are.

I've looked at your build, and it looks pretty good. Actually seeing the build helps me determine how it is possible to get all those hitpoints. My response now is this - While impressive, it can be emulated by other builds, and I have seen fighters / barbarians push a high quantity of hit points as well, and if built right, they too will have great defenses. The other thing I am noticing is the fact that people are rolling around in Unyielding sentinel when they make the claim that warlocks are OP - try rolling a shiradi, or draconic, or basically any destiny that is not a tank destiny. You will die more in those destinies (but also be a bit more effective than heroic level), but then again, Steel has already mentioned that end-game is not the only metric they go by.

So your solution is to have every single class be an easy button, good for noobs?

Every single class will be immune to death, and able to clear large groups of monsters with ease?

That's your solution to make this a better game?

Warlock is not an easy button, per-se. It is possible, even as a bladeforged warlock, to get creamed in higher (and lower) end heroics. I've been killed by traps I did not anticipate (or arrogantly considered myself immune to - I wasn't). They take skill to play effectively (especially in Epic elite), and with my pure level 20 Bladeforged Warlock, I've actually had to hit rest shrines more often than I've ever had to (my prior builds being more mana efficient). Granted, Wail of the Banshee can be a bit of a guzzler.

No. I used to prefer epic content at cap 28 but they broke the balance of the game so badly at cap with level 30 that I consider it unplayably uninteresting.

Just because the game has moved on, and the focus (rightly) is on endgame, doesn't mean you should completely remove the old game and ignore it. Keep it fun for new players so they have a reason to get to cap, and for old players who prefer those levels. It's not hard to fix, either. Just scale a bunch of the overperforming abilities in heroic so they're just as good at level 30, but much weaker and more in line with other classes during heroic levels.

1. As slarden keeps suggesting, make it more of a tradeoff between dps and defence at all levels

2. scale some abilities based on warlock level + epic level.

Then warlock can perform just as well at cap although with more of a choice of role rather than all the things at once, and won't be as abjectly boring for everyone else in the group in heroic.

I would rather see this, than to see the numbers reduced outright. As much as I like multi-classing, I think it's silly that a splash can do almost as well as a pure, dedicated warlock (and that philosophy applies to all of the remaining classes - especially monks and paladins). This particular suggestion of splitting the efficacy amongst the cores seems the most fair of all the proposals to adjust warlock as all the other classes have their greater powers locked in higher tiers.

That being said, I will admit that one of the bigger mistakes I think the devs made when building Soul Eater is the fact that you can get a 2d10 stack three times sla at level 1, and a 12d6 spell attack by level 2 or 3, it's massively over-powered for EARLY game. Toward later game, the damage averages out, and becomes in line with the other spells later on. What they should do with these two sla's is make it 1d6 per warlock level - by level 12 you max it out, and the buffs to its damage (which few can resist) could be located in the cores so that , again, pure warlocks are not punished just because the outlier builds (like the meta's I, and other creative and highly experienced players, can churn out). By level 6, you can get an additional 2d10 for consume, and 4d6 with stricken (the damage has no save even though the debuffs do). Level 12 gives more in both the core, as well as the tier 5. The Life Force power should also scale similarly off of warlock levels. By doing this, you mainly prevent the "meta-munchy" builds from being able to crank out huge defenses and larger spell damage (my 11 fighter, 6 warlock, 4 paladin was an ac tank that exploited the synergies of paladin and fighter ac, and used the sla for self-healing, of course, he kinda sucked at staying alive in later game because he lacked multiple self-healing methods, but I digress).

As far as roles go, my warlock has never really been a master of all things, and I already have to choose; I put strength onto my bladeforged warlock so he could get into melee brawls (because I find melee more entertaining than just flinging a bunch of spells, though my build can utilize chain blasts for those instances where ranged is a must). Because of my build decisions, his pact spells come off as rather weak, and certainly not viable in Epic Elite, and if I encounter a foe with spell resistance, he won't be able to penetrate their spell resistance.

[Tilomere]

try rolling a shiradi

Why would I trade 281 HP/sec from renewal, and 30 more HP/sec from US healing amplification for an insignificant 14 damage/spell of Shiradi, on attacks that are already up to 40 damage die? To try to damage 30-500k hp mobs?

That's a joke right?

There is a reason only triple exploit builds use shiradi, and if you look you won't even be able to find non-triple exploit epic sorcs or wiz in shiradi on your entire server. It's somewhere between awful and worse than awful, which is why you go US instead. It adds the same amount of dps (almost 0), but at least adds healing. The only reason you go shiradi on a warlock is if the mobs aren't threatening already, for entertainment value of nerve venom. It doesn't really even speed killing of groups up, since you still have to do non-helpless damage to the mobs in a group that randomly don't get hit by nerve venom.



With a 5000 hp mob, shiradi damage procs are good. With a 50k hp mob, shiradi damage procs are poor, but at least you have nerve venom, which is fair. With a 500k hp red named, shiradi damage procs and nerve venom are worthless.

With end game dungeon bosses consisting of 500k+ hp red names, and the end game raid consisting of a ~30 mob chain of 500k+ hp red names, Turbine deleted shiradi casters from the game. With a few years for class passes, and a few years for ED passes, you might see them back in 2020.

[slarden]

Why would I trade 281 HP/sec from renewal, and 30 more HP/sec from US healing amplification for an insignificant 14 damage/spell of Shiradi, on attacks that are already up to 40 damage die? To try to damage 30-500k hp mobs?

That's a joke right?

There is a reason only triple exploit builds use shiradi. You can't even get normal sorcs and wiz to make it work. It's somewhere between awful and worse than awful.

I am using shiradi on an accomplished alt and one with virtually no lifes at all. The pm shiradi is using LGS negative 150 which is probably not working as intended. Beyond that I am not aware of any exploits in the build at all and I am able to clear all the existing LE content.

Again your comments are proving the power itself isn't coming from warlock abilities, but rather your ability to dump dc and take all the other options available to all classes.

[RobbinB]

Something people haven't directly pointed out (I think?) is that the Warlock's trees are very additive/synergistic with each other. While ES alone would already be strong, being able to go tier 5 in ES and tier 4 in TS or SE just puts the power level over the top.

I would say go back to a system where you can only take enhancements from one tree but obviously this would limit choices and pretty much never happen.

Turbine could nerf the Warlock by basically keep the overall power of each tree the same but repositioning some of the power to tier 5/capstone or structuring some of the enhancements so that they are more powerful or only work when being used with stuff in the same tree, eg. passive confusion effect of TS applies only to base or chain blast, not aura or cone.

I also think spirit blast should be removed as a separate (2nd) blast and just act to improve the existing eldritch burst by increasing the light damage and %SP scaling (eg. back to 120 or 150%). Adding 1 or 2 secs to the countdown wouldn't hurt either. Alternatively, make the spirit blast even more powerful (added light damage and eg. 200% SP scaling) but make it have a huge cooldown, like 30-60 seconds range.