Warlock Balancing

[draven1]

[QUOTE=Soleran100;5868214

Shiradi builds (wiz/sorc,) wolf builds, throwers dare I say even mechanic rogues do better then warlocks in top content.[/QUOTE]

THAT's IT! Good overperfoming candidate list to be adjusted. Don't forget tree exploits.

[jakeelala]

None of the builds listed, except warlock, will take a mediocre player without past lives or decent gear and allow them to trivialize LE content. That is a fact. Therefore none of them require nerfing.

It's the weak classes which require buffing. I don't think Warlock needs a nerf, just maybe perhaps a slight tone down on their ability to be basically invincible and do top notch DPS. But their single target DPS is garbage anyway, so who even really cares?

[Elfishski]

It's interesting because trees, wolfs, throwers and sorc/wizard shiradis are all higher on the pecking order at the moment and the first 3 of those make heavy heavy use of favorable bugs. There are quite a few builds that are in the same ballpark as warlock, but I knew this was coming. It will clearly make more people unhappy than happy, but that itself makes reading the forums more interesting for a bit.

The power gamers have always hated builds that are easy to understand and easy to play because too many people can run higher difficulties and they prefer it to be an elite club for people that know about secret bugs. So it's been a punching bag since before it went live.

There is a problem with Warlock and that is that there is too little dps at stake by completely dumping charisma - about 13% total. This allows people to become immune to death with super high hp and ppr and the dps loss isn't so bad considering you can't be killed.

I don't have a huge degree of confidence the nerf will be right. They should lower the dps of dc-dumping warlock because that is where all the survivability comes from - not nearly as much comes from the warlock trees. Instead they will nerf the warlock tree a bit which will hardly make a dent in dc-dumping warlocks but will make dc-based warlocks more squishy. Ironically that will just push more people to dump dc lol.

Whatever they do at least it makes for an interesting project to make the best of it. The last nerf was more annoying because they nerfed dps when dps was only an issue at heroic levels.

I would prefer the nerf to create a trade-off between dps and survivability. Instead they are looking at warlocks that dump char and max con, go into unyielding sentinel and use shields and declaring warlocks are too survivable. Nerfing a little from warlock tree won't eliminate that easy button because the problem is the split between eld blast subject to save vs not subject to save and NOT the warlock tree itself.

Making the warlock feats 3d4 pact damage instead of 2d6 base damage and making the 6d6 light damage subject to a will save solves that problem more than a straight-up nerf. It generates more of a trade-off between dps and defenses.

Yep, good suggestions. Tradeoffs are always more interesting and create more and different varieties of builds where you can't have everything. It's been a real shame how class passes have taken most of those decisions away so each class (or at least tree) has a single no-brainer max stat that everything applies to, rather than having a few different very strong DC abilities tied to different non-main DPS stat so you have options to build around.

My main character is currently a flavor build con-based dwarf sorcerer trying to get high DC for the earthgrab abilities. Is it optimal? Far from it, but it's nice having that option. If they did a pass on sorc I bet it would just become another charisma ability.

Still, shining through does need a nerf for heroic levels at least, instead of 12xcon leading to 300-500 constantly refreshable temp HP in heroic which I don't know how anyone can argue is balanced and good for the game (okay, they don't say it's balanced they say they're having fun and don't nerf them or else, which I guess is a valid opinion even if I think it's short-sighted). Even for epics if you really build around it it's super strong for LE, and immunity for lesser difficulties.

As others suggested, a more complicated formula could scale more smoothly to level. ((warlock level+1)/3 + epic level/2) * con would scale better - still the best single defensive ability in the game for 2AP! Or make the SP cost = to your con score. Probably also scale Brilliance.

More tradeoffs!

[Angelic-council]

Warlock is definitely an easy class to play. It's basically a caster that most people desire.. they don't need SP to perform damage, they uses arcane spell and charisma based which has good synergy with divine sphere.

There is a good warlock and bad warlock, good warlock can lead kill counts way beyond any classes: won't even allow you to hit enemies (if played good). In the end, warlock will have so much going on, like, wail of banshee, hurl, circle of death, hold monster mass, energy burst, divine wrath, 2 free AoE from spirit enhancement, so you can pretty much keep going none stop with this setup. That skill combination is what makes warlock powerful IMO.

[slarden]

None of the builds listed, except warlock, will take a mediocre player without past lives or decent gear and allow them to trivialize LE content. That is a fact. Therefore none of them require nerfing.

It's the weak classes which require buffing. I don't think Warlock needs a nerf, just maybe perhaps a slight tone down on their ability to be basically invincible and do top notch DPS. But their single target DPS is garbage anyway, so who even really cares?

Warlock isn't at the top of the heap, but it is a B+ to A- build and it's something a newer player can easily understand.

At heroic levels it's a joke, but the power level of warlock is great exaggerated at level 30. It will probably be workable even with the nerf, but alot of people already switched out of warlock since level cap moved to 30 and the build power structure changed quite a bit. Warlock will be like PM where people will keep calling for nerfs even when it's at the bottom of the heap. The day after the nerf many warlocks will reroll but the same forum folk will still be asking for more warlock nerfs.

Turbine's BS meter needs significant tuning. It's not that warlock doesn't need a nerf, it's that it is no more deserving of a nerf than 10 other builds if Turbine wants to go that direction, but they seem to want to only go that with direction with just warlock.

[LightBear]

None of the builds listed, except warlock, will take a mediocre player without past lives or decent gear and allow them to trivialize LE content. That is a fact. Therefore none of them require nerfing.

It's the weak classes which require buffing. I don't think Warlock needs a nerf, just maybe perhaps a slight tone down on their ability to be basically invincible and do top notch DPS. But their single target DPS is garbage anyway, so who even really cares?

Warlocks are in no way overpowered. Whenever someone calls out their dps is over 9000 they're making fun of ya.
It's just to throw sands in the eyes of those willing to look for something to call nerf about.

There are other builds out there that perform way better than just some Warlock.
Btw, Shining Through is not the best thing about Warlocks at all.

I really do wonder if these cry babies have ever tried out one of those so called OP builds.
Whenever I see threads like these pop up I'm just eager to try these out and hardly ever do they live up to the expectations.

[Requiro]

Warlocks are in no way overpowered. Whenever someone calls out their dps is over 9000 they're making fun of ya.
It's just to throw sands in the eyes of those willing to look for something to call nerf about.

There are other builds out there that perform way better than just some Warlock.
Btw, Shining Through is not the best thing about Warlocks at all.

I really do wonder if these cry babies have ever tried out one of those so called OP builds.
Whenever I see threads like these pop up I'm just eager to try these out and hardly ever do they live up to the expectations.

Exactly.
Probably most Nerf-Demand-Party are never try Warlock in Epic and TR just after Heroic.

Shining Through is not the best in Warlock, but it's very powerful in Heroic especially for Multicalss.
What Warlock need is a little adjustment like I suggest earlier and that it. No more...

Any additional nerf, that will also affect Epic levels, are just waste of Dev time. And made lot's of player frustration.
Steel should consider some buffs (if he care about balance issue) for Warlock on Epic levels. Maybe Greater Epic Eldritch Blast ? (+3d6 Eldritch Blast dice, acquirable on level 24 or 27?)

[JOTMON]

i enjoyed all my warlock lives. it is class what possible many variations and be very strong.
i do not want they make it weak, but adjustment is needed.
right now warlock power is out of any control.

i was thinking about class and what could be done.

first, add minimal sp cost to eldrich/pact blasts. so sp depletes on small scale but constantly, even 1 sp per "blast" would give some balance. other thing - double sp cost for normal spells AND double spell timeout, so warlocks are forced to deplete sp pool in any case or stop dps.
warlock is caster class, so make them use sp pool and that way balance them with other casters.

other thing. these temporary hp shields. id tied them to sp pool. if warlock wants 50% hp added, it would instantly cost same percentage of spell points. you would not see running around warlocks with insane hp all the time anymore.

now blast dps itself. it is too high. really too high. it decimates huge groups in large areas at safe distance WITHOUT using sp. there is nothing normal in that situation.

a. add sp cost to blasts;
b. double sp cost to spells and double timeout;
c. hp shields use proportional percent of sp pool instantly. want 50% hp shield? lose 50% of sp. choice is yours.
d. reduce blast damage and reduce aoe blast area;

pff, phh, pff, phh

if it used SP it wouldn't be Eldritch.
Eldritch Blast is a spell like ability not a spell.. it does not use SP its a core energy.. It would be like adding a sp cost to swinging a weapon... I don't think melee's would appreciate having every swing of their weapon cost sp.

[Ziindarax]

Warlock isn't at the top of the heap, but it is a B+ to A- build and it's something a newer player can easily understand.

At heroic levels it's a joke, but the power level of warlock is great exaggerated at level 30. It will probably be workable even with the nerf, but alot of people already switched out of warlock since level cap moved to 30 and the build power structure changed quite a bit. Warlock will be like PM where people will keep calling for nerfs even when it's at the bottom of the heap. The day after the nerf many warlocks will reroll but the same forum folk will still be asking for more warlock nerfs.

Turbine's BS meter needs significant tuning. It's not that warlock doesn't need a nerf, it's that it is no more deserving of a nerf than 10 other builds if Turbine wants to go that direction, but they seem to want to only go that with direction with just warlock.

I fully agree. Has anyone seen the Cetus build (not to be trolling the author, but I wish to make a point) - this guy is doing thousands on crits with a falchion on almost every blow - that's something even warlocks don't get. They get range and safety, but no dice on nearly every blow landing critical hits.


From where I stand, I do about mediocre damage on Epics, and so I do not feel that warlocks need to be nerfed or "adjusted" in any way, shape, or form. I would like to remind that casters are supposed to be powerful, it's the one advantage they get considering they have weak saves (even when you build 'em with high constitution and decent wisdom), poor BAB (unless you tensor, or go pure Enlightened Spirit), and worst of all, a relative lack of hit points.

[JOTMON]

I fully agree. Has anyone seen the Cetus build (not to be trolling the author, but I wish to make a point) - this guy is doing thousands on crits with a falchion on almost every blow - that's something even warlocks don't get. They get range and safety, but no dice on nearly every blow landing critical hits.


From where I stand, I do about mediocre damage on Epics, and so I do not feel that warlocks need to be nerfed or "adjusted" in any way, shape, or form. I would like to remind that casters are supposed to be powerful, it's the one advantage they get considering they have weak saves (even when you build 'em with high constitution and decent wisdom), poor BAB (unless you tensor, or go pure Enlightened Spirit), and worst of all, a relative lack of hit points.

Cetus is a stars aligned build played by a guy with skillz.. only solution there is nerf the player.. down with Cetusssssss.

[guardiankaiser]

I see a lot of mention of "hundreds of PRR" but unless I'm crazy and missing something I only see 19 PRR in the ES tree (with Full base attack you also gain 7 to 22 extra with medium armor (level 20 to 30) assuming you were not going to gain full BAB some other way (tensors and such))

Shine Through is pretty powerful in heroic content that I can agree with for sure, however in epic 300 to 600 hp every 30 seconds can melt surprisingly, this ability needs to scale for sure, it is honestly odd that the aura Temp scales, but this larger chunk of HP does not, even the same scaling coulda helped (6xx heroic, 12 epic)

Edit: (forgot to mention) I would also like to resonate what has been said here about the other trees being quiet lacking, any nerf that would also be damaging to SE/TS would be terrible. I found tainted scholar to be particularly underwhelming.

[Thrudh]

Still, shining through does need a nerf for heroic levels at least, instead of 12xcon leading to 300-500 constantly refreshable temp HP in heroic which I don't know how anyone can argue is balanced and good for the game

Exactly.

Even for epics if you really build around it it's super strong for LE, and immunity for lesser difficulties.

Yep... I have no problems with warlocks being strong offensively, but they shouldn't also be near immune defensively.

[Ziindarax]

Oo

Oo

I saw. I noticed he drank quite many pots and used a lot of moving. He must have a very good naga mouse to make that work. All those store potions, that's cheating in my book. But fighters have to be nerfed too.

It's time to implement an even newer rule - permanent banning for players that complain about nerfing.

Multi-quote (dialogue box with a + on it) is your friend. Anyways, I consider store-pots to be unsustainable, and the builds at large that scroll spam and what-not are impractical in my eyes.

Exactly.



Yep... I have no problems with warlocks being strong offensively, but they shouldn't also be near immune defensively.

I don't see how they can be near immune defensively (Legendary Normal hits almost as hard as Epic Elite), and for the record, those high numbers everyone is seeing is a DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF LOOT POWER CREEP! If Shining through had been around when the very best of the best con bonus you could get was maybe +9 or +10 (+7 con item with +1 and +2 exceptional), or 11 if you used a litany, you would not be seeing the kind of hit points we're seeing now. And many of those near-immortal warlocks are BLADEFORGED, who have a one-press instant heal in a can that's dirt cheap compared to the actual spell. It also doesn't help that over-powered Epic Past Lives are coming into play, making any character ridiculously over-powered when it should be turned off until a player reaches level 20.

[Lallajulia]

if it used SP it wouldn't be Eldritch.
Eldritch Blast is a spell like ability not a spell.. it does not use SP its a core energy.. It would be like adding a sp cost to swinging a weapon... I don't think melee's would appreciate having every swing of their weapon cost sp.

spell like abilities of other classes use sp. and warlock is caster, not melee.

[Duetotheseverity]

spell like abilities of other classes use sp. and warlock is caster, not melee.

Wait a sec don't you swing your mouse like you are atacking in game?

If you are a melee you must to swing it to hit!

You can't cast spells because it don't exist! doh!

[JOTMON]

spell like abilities of other classes use sp. and warlock is caster, not melee.

Warlock is not other classes and Eldritch doesn't use mana.
Its a raw magical force energy attack and is affected by spell power.

Eldritch is not affected by meta's
Eldritch is not affected by anti-magic fields.
Eldritch is not affected by spell resistance in DDO.. (in PnP it is subject to SR..)



http://ddowiki.com/page/Eldritch_Blast
Eldritch Blast
This is a toggle feat. When you toggle it on, your basic attack, regardless of weapons held(except for wands), becomes a ranged magical attack that hits a single enemy. It does not cost spell points or hit points; only time, much like swinging a weapon.

[Duetotheseverity]

3 days and no infractions for me!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Enoach]

...Eldritch is not affected by spell resistance in DDO.. (in PnP it is subject to SR..)



....

This comment totally reminds me of all the places that if implemented more like PnP we would maybe see very different builds

Such as: Ray/Touch spells using Touch Attack roll (so they can miss)
Spells like Magic Missile requiring a Spell Penetration Check etc. (SR was not just for non-damaging spells)

[Ziindarax]

This comment totally reminds me of all the places that if implemented more like PnP we would maybe see very different builds

Such as: Ray/Touch spells using Touch Attack roll (so they can miss)
Spells like Magic Missile requiring a Spell Penetration Check etc. (SR was not just for non-damaging spells)

Reverting to the old rules would actually fix a LOT of things (while also hampering a few as well):

SR penetration also used your caster level DC's I think, and when you multi-classed, you often wound up gimping your DC's. Then again, in P&P, you had utility spells that, if applied creatively (such as shape stone spell [which Jerry Holkins of Acquisitions uses well in the Dwarven Vault, as well as in the Season finale]) would allow you to bypass fighting altogether.

Drow being able to apply spell resistance against damaging spells would actually be a phenomenal buff for them since, in the lore for the Forgotten Realms, the Drow saw themselves as the master race thanks to their spell resistance (and with a mere potion, the Drow could cast AOE spells near each other with impunity without hurting their comrades). Beating a Drow as a spell caster often meant creative application of your spells (and using the environment against them). The only problem now is, since Spell resistance is readily available through Cannith Crafting, going back to this system means we swing the pendulum SUPER wide toward melee's being nearly unstoppable (and ranged characters would be double so, and the monks, yeah they're super again). By doing this, Bladeforged would have a meaningful competitor through the elves.

For an Iconic Drow, this would actually be a cool feature (being able to apply your racial spell resistance [so it stacks with items] against spell attack damage). The other thing that might really irritate the current meta - making spells operate on ATTACK rolls just like in the current pen and paper (magic missiles was the only spell I am aware of that's guaranteed to hit) using your 2 x your BAB if you are a pure caster, or 25% + your BAB, if you're not.

[Cetus]

I saw. I noticed he drank quite many pots and used a lot of moving. He must have a very good naga mouse to make that work. All those store potions, that's cheating in my book. But fighters have to be nerfed too.

I did?

The only store potions I drink are lasting ability potions, gathered mostly through mysterious remnants. I have a few major elixirs sitting around just in case, but ERoSS and bauble are plenty between shrines.