Warlock Balancing

[Soleran100]

This is Elitism plain and simple!

Wolf/Tree Builds require major gaming skills and extreme Meta-Knowledge of DDO to play to anything like their potential!

That is a false narrative.

Anyone can make those builds work with a moderate amount of proficiency with the google search function and youtube.

If there is a nerf to warlock, oh well. It would do the DDO team justice to actually boost the other two (non played trees) when they do nerf es.

[Duetotheseverity]

I'm pretty sure they are not going to nerf warlock enough.

[Enoach]

This is Elitism plain and simple!

Wolf/Tree Builds require major gaming skills and extreme Meta-Knowledge of DDO to play to anything like their potential!

That is a false narrative.

Anyone can make those builds work with a moderate amount of proficiency with the google search function and youtube.

If there is a nerf to warlock, oh well. It would do the DDO team justice to actually boost the other two (non played trees) when they do nerf es.

Actually the Tree builds do take on a different approach to combat, one that some people find hard to do as it requires avoiding abilities that are effected by speed. It also takes knowledge of how to earn spirits and when to drop form so you can self heal as there is a limited amount of abilities that can heal you while in tree form. Is it any more skill then any other class? - No, but it is a playstyle that is different enough that people may find the learning curve too much for them.

What we know about the comment from the Devs is that the DPS does not appear to be the issue. So it is likely they are going to be touching some of the survivability options - Most likely in the HP/Temp HP area of Warlock (ES was specifically mentioned). However, at this time for use out here the changes are pure speculation and we only have steel's comments as a clue.

[Ziindarax]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

Any chance this could be discussed with the Player council before it goes live? As much as I am tempted to agree with concerns about 3k HP builds with 300 prr blowing things up (gross exaggeration - I am rolling a heavy armor bladeforged pure warlock with the 16 prr enhancement from racial, and I am no where near 130 PRR, much less 300, which is only achievable through paladin/fighter levels [and full epic past lives]), those are rare meta-builds (the Bladeforged Cetus 18 fighter/2 monk is consistently doing thousands of points of damage per hit [something even warlocks cannot do, at least, mine can't, and I have some of the best named loot in the game] with a Thunderforged Falchion). Shining Through as an ability does not really require adjustment either because *most* of us are not capable of pumping out 2k HP builds (I am a pure bladeforged epic warlock who focused into strength and constitution), and epic (especially Legendary Mobs) are more than capable of trashing that temporary hit point boon.

Furthermore, some Legendary Elite Mobs can one-shot a warlock even with over 1k hit points with 70% damage mitigation. So before we start talking nerfs, how about we make Legendary Elite Mobs survivable for melees to even encounter (while ranged mobs are able to safely kite away indefinitely with little to no risk or threat).

To be perfectly honest, it's not that warlocks are gods (they can be hard to kill, especially as Bladeforged), it's really that the loot in the game is too dam powerful with ever hiking power levels every update (the Slave Lords Trinket alone adds +8 insightful con, which makes just about every other insightful con trinket at that level worthless). Meta builds take your over-powered LOOT items, and find ways to crank out every little advantage and bonus possible.

I'm pretty sure they are not going to nerf warlock enough.

Warlocks are not Gods, and frankly, I've seen melee builds crank out more damage than a warlock (they've already had their chain blast reduced to just 2 or 3 additional targets because of lag reasons, and their spell power has been watered down quite a bit). Legendary mobs can, and do, kill warlocks, sometimes in a single hit. Part of what makes Warlocks seem over-powered is the fact that people are multi-classing warlocks with other classes, and combining the bonuses.

I wonder how many people who are screaming for warlock nerfs would like it if we could go ahead and get rid of the Epic Past Life feats, and the Iconic ones as well, while we're at it (or at best, reduce their power levels tremendously to be in line with heroic passive past lives, which only offer small, trivial bonuses).

[Soleran100]

Actually the Tree builds do take on a different approach to combat, one that some people find hard to do as it requires avoiding abilities that are effected by speed. It also takes knowledge of how to earn spirits and when to drop form so you can self heal as there is a limited amount of abilities that can heal you while in tree form. Is it any more skill then any other class? - No, but it is a playstyle that is different enough that people may find the learning curve too much for them.

What we know about the comment from the Devs is that the DPS does not appear to be the issue. So it is likely they are going to be touching some of the survivability options - Most likely in the HP/Temp HP area of Warlock (ES was specifically mentioned). However, at this time for use out here the changes are pure speculation and we only have steel's comments as a clue.

Youtube videos explain how to do this, its not miracle art performed in ddo that only a few people know. It's just that only a few people play the builds vs warlocks.

My point about frans comment was that he was specifically being an elitist.

[Requiro]

<snip>

I find that acceptable.

That change will also balance Multiclass, where now 5 level of Warlock, give you 95% survivability of Pure.

Just have Eldritch Power give 3d6 for the Standard 2 AP.

<snip>

Maybe. Any improvement to Eldritch Power ability, should be done for balance issue.

Right now Tainted Scholar have underwhelming T5 abilities.

Soul Eater have DoT improvements and Free massive AOE damage.
Enlightened Spirit have Shining Through and AOE point-blank low cooldown massive damage ability.

While Tainted Scholar Have average AOE damage (with special cost) that need targeting and +DC that is relevant only in one build.
Boosting main source of power (Eldritch Blast) should bring TS T5 more balanced with other 2.

The problem is that Devs are not looking for balance. They call it balance, but what they really plan to do is nerf.
If they change only Shining Through in the way similar to my post, then ok. That will be reasonable.

But we know from the past, that they love static ability. So probably without any balance in the main problem (Heroic) we just get nerfed on both Heroic and Epic part.

[Ziindarax]

That change will also balance Multiclass, where now 5 level of Warlock, give you 95% survivability of Pure.



Maybe. Any improvement to Eldritch Power ability, should be done for balance issue.

Right now Tainted Scholar have underwhelming T5 abilities.

Soul Eater have DoT improvements and Free massive AOE damage.
Enlightened Spirit have Shining Through and AOE point-blank low cooldown massive damage ability.

While Tainted Scholar Have average AOE damage (with special cost) that need targeting and +DC that is relevant only in one build.
Boosting main source of power (Eldritch Blast) should bring TS T5 more balanced with other 2.

The problem is that Devs are not looking for balance. They call it balance, but what they really plan to do is nerf.
If they change only Shining Through in the way similar to my post, then ok. That will be reasonable.

But we know from the past, that they love static ability. So probably without any balance in the main problem (Heroic) we just get nerfed on both Heroic and Epic part.

This is my concern as well. Perhaps a fair change would be to have Shining through only grant roughly 6x your constitution score in heroics, and then double that bonus in epics (I have gotten kill and overwhelmed in epics despite using a high con shining through).

[Requiro]

This is my concern as well. Perhaps a fair change would be to have Shining through only grant roughly 6x your constitution score in heroics, and then double that bonus in epics (I have gotten kill and overwhelmed in epics despite using a high con shining through).

That will not solve Multiclass problem. Still 5 level Warlock give you most Pure survivbility in Epic.

Other implementation (quasi static) could be like this:

Shining through: Initial 4xCon score
Core 3 (6 level): Additional +2xCon Score (Total 6xCon Score)
Core 4 (12 level): Additional +2xCon Score (Total 8xCon Score)
Core 5 (18 level): Additional +2xCon Score (Total 10xCon Score)
Core 6 (20 level): Additional +2xCon Score (Total 12xCon Score)

[jakeelala]

Relatively small, targeted balance adjustments to Warlock (especially Enlightened Spirit) are in the works for sometime after U32.



It always has.

Please consider many other builds you are considering a nerf to can also lead kill counts over the Warlock and remember that smart building, multiclassing, and very active playstyle by enthusiastic players has always been the lifeblood of this game and it's creative character building appeal.

Warlocks are pretty much fine right now. What you need to do is buff a few remaining straggler classes (Druids, FvS, Monks, Clerics). More importnatly you don't just need to be nerfiing or buffing core classes, you need to be re-evaluating ED's

I'm sure your internal stats show that the VAST majority of level 30 characters not leveling ED's play either:
-LD
-FoTW
-Shiradi
-EA if and only if Warlock using ES
-Primal was only used for Tree Builds (which makes sense since that it's epic moment and they just are classes built to use the epic moment).

But you're nerfing Warlocks apparently, and nerfing tree builds which is sad.

You really need to work on making the other 8-9 ED's worth using, and slightly buff the weaker classes. If you made Eldritch Knight now horrible in every way, Improved FvS enhancements, and revamped Monk enhancements, you could ignore warlock entirely.

But whatever you do, please don't mess any more with Ranged combat, Manyshot, or my beloved Throwers. Just give some other people some love for their preferred classes.

[Steelstar]

What you need to do is buff a few remaining straggler classes (Druids, FvS, Monks, Clerics). More importnatly you don't just need to be nerfiing or buffing core classes, you need to be re-evaluating ED's

I'm working on improvements for all four of those classes in some capacity at the moment. Much more, much larger than anything going on with Warlocks at the moment. EDs are far from perfect, but right now we're keeping the focus on the class passes.

[jakeelala]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

Wolf and tree builds depend on broken Monk handwrap and TWF fighting skills along with some shoddy coding in Primal Avatar, so when you fix monks most of the Wolf and Tree build stuff will change (tho could be better or worse depending on the changes).

The primary problem with Warlocks is that they do as much or more damage than OTHER CASTERS without ever having to drink and SP pot. On top of that, they can both self heal easily in ES, and have a bazillion HP so they don't die too much. This is more relevant in Heroics than Epics.

I think you need to keep Sorcs and Wizards weaker physically, but they need to be doing a lot more damage than Warlocks as a result. You need to buff Wizards and Sorcs, or buff their Destinies to make their spells even better. Outside of a Shiradi Missile spamming build, there is no caster build that functions well in an all around way in endgame LE content. I like Shiradi builds, please don't nerf them. But please buff Draconic and Magister ED's so someone might want to play them instead. Up the DCs of the abilities, get rid of 5x a day on breath weapon which is stupid, and buff the epic moments a bunch. You could fix both ED's in 4 hours with your intern you just let go.

[jakeelala]

I'm working on improvements for all four of those classes in some capacity at the moment. Much more, much larger than anything going on with Warlocks at the moment. EDs are far from perfect, but right now we're keeping the focus on the class passes.

Steelstar,

As a player, not a dev, I have to implore not to ever try and fix anything in a vacuum. You cannot fix a core class without considering how it will play in epics in each ED. That's the problem we have now, is that it seems like these considerations aren't taken. I know you have limited time, but I hope you can try and be a little more Agile, and update and release things early and often. There's no reason you couldn't slip in 4 or 5 small QoL updates to 2 or 3 EDs in an update or two and make super small but impactful changes to the game.

It's almost like you need a separate players council made up of just Builders here on the forums to advise you on how builds would change given code changes you are planning. That kind of wisdom of the crowd is drowned out on the forums in public threads by people who do not understand the intricate intertwined mechanics of the game. It's also impossible for you to know and understand every single permutuation represented by all the different builds people come up with and play. Even pro builders specialize in certain areas.

[Renvar]

I'm sure your internal stats show that the VAST majority of level 30 characters not leveling ED's play either:
-LD
-FoTW
-Shiradi
-EA if and only if Warlock using ES
-Primal was only used for Tree Builds (which makes sense since that it's epic moment and they just are classes built to use the epic moment).

Divine Crusader is making a sad face right now for being left off your list. It is a very good Destiny.

Also, you are forgetting about all those Unyielding Sentinel "pikers". I think you would be surprised how many players camp in this destiny, including some auralocks.

[jakeelala]

Divine Crusader is making a sad face right now for being left off your list. It is a very good Destiny.

Also, you are forgetting about all those Unyielding Sentinel "pikers". I think you would be surprised how many players camp in this destiny, including some auralocks.

US: Let them pike I don't really care and I also don't really feel it's necessary to address it.
DC: it's an OK destiny for some builds, that typically underperform other or the same builds in LD/FoTW, in my opinion. It's trying to do a lot of things at once. So either both of those things need slight buffs, or it needs to specialize and really buff one or the other. For instance, if you are ranged, and you're running in anything other that FoTW, you are leaving A LOT of DPS on the table. Sure your healing and immunities are worse, but your DPS is quite a bit higher. If DC had a few more DPS buffs for Ranged and Melee, or maybe a good on spellcast scaling damage proc like Shiradi, I think you'd see it on my list which is really just a list if the ED's people really play consistently at end game.

I know DC might work for some Warlock builds who like AoE damage, but mostly they run in EA, it seems.

[Alistina]

I'm working on improvements for all four of those classes in some capacity at the moment. Much more, much larger than anything going on with Warlocks at the moment. EDs are far from perfect, but right now we're keeping the focus on the class passes.

Any clue when an arti pass is going to happen?

[jakeelala]

I think the really important take away here is that ALL ED's that are played at end game are played because they have powerful Tier 6 Epic moment abilities.

Fury: Adrenaline is the best epic ability for ranged combat, hands down. It's pure DPS.

LD: Masters Blitz is Master Blitz. Combined with great abilities in the tree (Action Boosts, Tactics, some Cleaves, Crit Multi's) it's a great all around melee Destiny.

Shiradi: This one is a pseudo-exception because the core abilities and Double Rainbow are so good for casters, but there was a time when Tea epic moment was a lot of the reason for this ED. It seems to have been nerfed recently though, but not enough to counteract the power of the scaling spell cast procs. Which is just as well. It's a great and fun caster destiny, please leave it alone.

EA: Ea has a good epic moment, but also a great T6 Aoe blast with Divine Wrath. Like LD, it has really nice options up and down it's trees, making it actually a decent well-rounded ED. Only change here is that it needs a scaling light proc on spell cast a la Shiradi for that little bit of extra oomph, OR if you don't want people making MM spamming builds in EA, Give it another SLA that does direct damage, maybe a DoT. It would be nice to see this be given some melee enhancements. Thematically, there are lots of warrior angel archetypes. Maybe an attack speed buff, or let Divine Wrath proc on vorpal if you have the stacks. Or something.

Primal Avatar: It's all about turning into a tree. It's a great epic moment that requires certain builds to build spirit quickly, and then maximizing strikes and [x] damage dice while in the form.

So who has crappy Epic Moments and never get played?

Shadowdancer: all of it's abilities are **** and broken, both Consume and Ranged/Melee Assasinate ability. The shadow dagger thing is horrendously bad and Shadow Charges have always been busted. Fix or replace.

GMoF: Once a great destiny, hampered by Monk being subpar, and early nerfs to its Epic Moment. Needs improvement, and less monk stance related abilities.

Fatesinger: Could be a nice destiny, but all of it's abilities are useless at endgame, and horrible design decision to make Epic Moment not work on bosses. Are you kidding?Thiss thing needs a lot of work like Shadowdancer.

US: The tank ED, I'm fine with this staying how it is. Kind of boring for me, but not really OP.

Magister: Dump the stupid sigils, no one has ever used them. Increase damage and DPS of Epic Moment/Tier 6 ability. Improve nullmagic stuff. Add Eldritch Knight like abilities for Melees or Ranged when in the Destiny for ED leveling and more creative builds.

Draconic: Improve all abilities and remove use per day restrictions on abilities. This one is almost a good all around Destiny, but not quite. Cooldowns are too long.

Divine Crusader: Needs just a little bit more of everything, and epic moments could be a lot better. Maybe you just improve the epic moments. Shorten Duration, increase buff for Zeal. LD gets full buff almost full time, Zeal falls behind for example. FoTW gets it's buff all at once. Also, can't see real spell caster DPS builds running in this. So who is it actually for?

[Thrudh]

DC: it's an OK destiny for some builds, that typically underperform other or the same builds in LD/FoTW, in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree... DC is an extremely good ED.

The constant healing every time you kill a mob, Consecrated Ground giving strong burst healing to the entire group, fire and good damage and % damage to mobs in the circle.
10% doublestrike and +1 critical threat range
Zeal of the Righteous giving you +50% doublestrike, +50 Melee Power, +50 range power, +50 spell power... which slowly decreases (but lasts long enough for a big fight)

compared to LD where you get

+1 crit multiplier on 19-20 (+2 if you are using axes)
+70 Melee Power and +70 Range Power, 30 PRR from Blitz, which you can keep going most of the quest

And if you stun, Combat Brute gives you an 50% more damage against helpless enemies while using an action boost... which is big.

My tactics guy uses LD, but keeping him alive is much harder... DC is a rock-solid ED for my ranger/bard swashbuckler who doesn't stun. He does just as much damage in the big fights (50% doublestrike is huge), while healing himself easily.

I'm not saying DC is better than LD, but DC is a very good ED.

[karatemack]

It's almost like you need a separate players council made up of just Builders here on the forums to advise you on how builds would change given code changes you are planning. That kind of wisdom of the crowd is drowned out on the forums in public threads by people who do not understand the intricate intertwined mechanics of the game. It's also impossible for you to know and understand every single permutuation represented by all the different builds people come up with and play. Even pro builders specialize in certain areas.

Problem is, who are those people and who decides?

I can think of 3 people who frequently provide articulate build advice... and quite often they disagree with one another.

[Renvar]

US: Let them pike I don't really care and I also don't really feel it's necessary to address it.
DC: it's an OK destiny for some builds, that typically underperform other or the same builds in LD/FoTW, in my opinion. It's trying to do a lot of things at once. So either both of those things need slight buffs, or it needs to specialize and really buff one or the other. For instance, if you are ranged, and you're running in anything other that FoTW, you are leaving A LOT of DPS on the table. Sure your healing and immunities are worse, but your DPS is quite a bit higher. If DC had a few more DPS buffs for Ranged and Melee, or maybe a good on spellcast scaling damage proc like Shiradi, I think you'd see it on my list which is really just a list if the ED's people really play consistently at end game.

I know DC might work for some Warlock builds who like AoE damage, but mostly they run in EA, it seems.

This and your subsequent post show that the main attribute you value in an ED is DPS. Your solution to every "underperforming" tree was to add DPS. Not everyone builds for pure DPS. I've enjoyed your build posts and your ideas on builds, especially thrower/ranged builds. Most of which have very strong DPS.

Your two posts provide a very good analysis of the ED's to use for max DPS at end game and a very good analysis of the mindset of metagaming min/max crowd's view of ED's. Keep in mind that this crowd is maybe 5-10% of the game population. It may be the majority of people in guild or channels with you. It may be the majority of the builders on this (or other) forums. But it isn't the vast majority of the game. it is really "the vast majority of players that you interact with regularly". (I know that's the case for me. Most of the people I run with on Khyber fit this description).

However, there is an equally large (or probably larger) portion of players do not select ED's for DPS primarily or min/Max DPS, specifically. For them, other destinies may have features they enjoy that don't appeal to you.

[jakeelala]

This and your subsequent post show that the main attribute you value in an ED is DPS. Your solution to every "underperforming" tree was to add DPS. Not everyone builds for pure DPS. I've enjoyed your build posts and your ideas on builds, especially thrower/ranged builds. Most of which have very strong DPS.

Your two posts provide a very good analysis of the ED's to use for max DPS at end game and a very good analysis of the mindset of metagaming min/max crowd's view of ED's. Keep in mind that this crowd is maybe 5-10% of the game population. It may be the majority of people in guild or channels with you. It may be the majority of the builders on this (or other) forums. But it isn't the vast majority of the game. it is really "the vast majority of players that you interact with regularly". (I know that's the case for me. Most of the people I run with on Khyber fit this description).

However, there is an equally large (or probably larger) portion of players do not select ED's for DPS primarily or min/Max DPS, specifically. For them, other destinies may have features they enjoy that don't appeal to you.

That is some very interesting theory and postulation you are guessing about. Can you provide any empirical evidence that only 5% of people choose an ED based on their ability to kill monsters which is the entire point of this game? How many Fatesingers do you see running around on Khyber? How about Shadowdancers? Or Primal Avatars
(tree builds don't count)? I see basically zero. And I constantly "z" people to see they're bio.

I strongly disagree with your conclusions.