Warlock Balancing

[ChicagoChris]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.

^^^^^
Um, hints please :-)

[LT218]

Fair, just because I don't understand it doesn't mean you shouldn't have your fun (*though I think both luxury and HP cars are absurd too), but to say that you want them because they're overpowered, and that they shouldn't be nerfed because they're not overpowered is still a contradiction.

This is a regulated environment, not the real world. It's appropriate for devs to keep tinkering with rules to keep all the options as interesting as possible so one doesn't dominate the others. Calling it a bait and switch as I keep seeing is an over-reaction. Everyone knows that rebalancing is on the cards for all classes over time.

I never said they are overpowered. There's a difference between being stronger than some of the other classes and overpowered.

Warlocks aren't the top DPS class at this point, even if you exclude the exploit/non-WAI builds. There are builds available for most/all of the classes in DDO that can solo most EE content in the hands of a competent player so that hardly seems to be a valid bar for being "overpowered".

Given that Warlocks are a premium class you pay extra for, I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to be a bit stronger than the free classes. Otherwise, where's the incentive for people to purchase it? If they're not any stronger than a sorcerer or xbow mechanic, just run one of those and save your TP for something else.

Using the definition of "overpowered" common in this thread, there will always be overpowered classes/builds unless (until?) all the classes are nerfed to low power, copy+paste versions of the others. It's a never-ending cycle of nerfs that ends with every class being mediocre once the bar is lowered to the point that power gamers running min/maxed builds can't outperform mediocre players/builds because the skill requirement and build diversity has been dumbed down so far.

To me, keeping the options as interesting as possible absolutely requires that there is a variance in the power levels of different classes and builds. I want each class to play differently and for some to be easier or harder in others. That lets me choose a class and build that works best for the way I enjoy playing the game but doesn't lock other people into having to play the way I do.

Don't like the so called "overpowered" builds? Don't play them. Don't like grouping with others running so called overpowered warlock builds, don't group with them. Remove warlocks from your allowed class list in your LFMs and if necessary add powergames to your ignore list. It's an easy problem with an easy solution.

[SemanticMirage]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

How exactly are you guys going to go about "fixing" trees? Are you just thinking about nerfing the damage of the tree or fixing the "exploit" of using cleaves to bypass the slow attack speed

[LT218]

Other people do affect a person's enjoyment of a quest or raid.

Only if you choose to let them.

My experience indicates that most people will respect a "No zerging" or a "No power gamers" label if you post it on the LFM. For the people that don't respect it, there's the ignore list and class exclusion options in the LFM window. Last but not least, as you stated, this is not just a solo game, so get to know other players on your server and make friends or even join a guild with the like-minded ones.

It's pretty easy to tailor your DDO experience to your liking if you try, regardless of which class or build is the current flavor of the moment.

[Chilldude]

This isn't a solo-only game. Other people do affect a person's enjoyment of a quest or raid.

Yes, and the vast, vast, enormously vast majority of the times here on the forums the enjoyment is being affected by players on under powered characters. Furthermore, a dev said himself that warlocks are not the highest damage dealing class, which is obvious to anyone who plays a lot of DDO. So if you are having your enjoyment hampered by warlocks outclassing you, you're going to have your enjoyment hampered by the even more powerful classes as well. At the end of the day, the potential for enabling players who would otherwise be grossly under powered to play with average and strong players supersedes a little bit of hurt pride in my book.

[karatemack]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

This response was reasonable and is the type of communication many forumites claim to want...

Some people will complain no matter what though.

[Enoach]

Only if you choose to let them.

My experience indicates that most people will respect a "No zerging" or a "No power gamers" label if you post it on the LFM. For the people that don't respect it, there's the ignore list and class exclusion options in the LFM window. Last but not least, as you stated, this is not just a solo game, so get to know other players on your server and make friends or even join a guild with the like-minded ones.

It's pretty easy to tailor your DDO experience to your liking if you try, regardless of which class or build is the current flavor of the moment.

What I usually run into is clashing styles...

The bard that Enthralls/Fascinates whole rooms of mobs vs the Large AoE damager (which at one point use to be limited to Spell casters and is now part of weapon procs)

The Kiter vs The Mass Hold DC caster

The Melee Hulk vs The Kiter

And many other styles that don't work well together...

I do admit it is funny to watch a Cleric/FvS/Artificer cast 2 to 3 blade barriers so they can kite a room only to have the mobs frozen in place within blue rings. Or watching the melee chase and swing at mobs being kited in a large pattern so that the only way they really could catch up is if they stand still and let the kiter pass by and Trip a mob (of course I'm convinced that many melee players don't even know how to put trip on their tool bar or even know they have a defensive stance available hehehe)

The problem is very few people are willing to compromise how they play and many use tactics best used if solo and not when they group.

I have an AA that is capable of Kiting, but I also recognize when it is time to kite and when it is time to drop the agro on the melee. As a DC caster I know how to "help" someone kite better - Symbol spells, or help them by removing the agro with spells like web or holds so again the melee can apply their damage.

While I'm not a fan of the days when many wizards were seen as Haste/Rage bots, there is some truth that these two spells added a significant amount of DPS to the whole party. Personally, I find it sad that so many have put what I feel is too much focus on personal DPS and neglected what their character can do to increase the Party's DPS (which in many cases can be exponentially increased for the same investment of individual).

When I first started to play DDO in '06 there were many players that enjoyed making the party experience fun allowing each individual to shine in its moment, but not taking away from the success which was due to the party. I truly believe in DDO the Whole of a party can be more than the sum of its individual members.

[Jomee]

Relatively small, targeted balance adjustments to Warlock (especially Enlightened Spirit) are in the works for sometime after U32.



It always has.

"Relatively small" but from a two handed uber nerf bat.

[Duetotheseverity]

it's powerful, but once you hit epics, it's no more powerful than any other toon. It has it's perks, and it will shine in certain content far more than others, based on it's build.

This is true, like Steel said warlock is not the highest dps but all the advantages make it a really silly class.

[slarden]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

While warlock is the favorite punching bag because it's less complex to build and play - tree builds, wolfs and shuri builds are outperforming warlock significantly - all helped by favorable bugs (or exploits depending on perspective). I get that warlock is easier to fix, but if the others wont be fixed any time soon please don't balance LE around broken builds.

Small changes is the way to go with nerfs.

[Chilldude]

This response was reasonable and is the type of communication many forumites claim to want...

Some people will complain no matter what though.

Thank you for being up front about hocking a loogie on my burger. The open lines of communication about it not only make it acceptable, I actually enjoy the loogie since you told me about it ahead of time. Wait a minute...???

Or perhaps, what you really mean by communication is open discourse...

We've heard a lot of players voicing the opinion that warlocks are grossly overpowered. We can assure you they are not the top damage dealers in the game, yet we are interested in your feedback. If you feel warlocks are overpowered can you list specific examples of exactly where and how you feel they are not inline with other classes? Or are you just butthurt because Lockednloaded got more kills than you in your last faceroll of a quest?

[Thrudh]

Thank you for being up front about hocking a loogie on my burger. The open lines of communication about it not only make it acceptable, I actually enjoy the loogie since you told me about it ahead of time. Wait a minute...???

Or perhaps, what you really mean by communication is open discourse...

We've heard a lot of players voicing the opinion that warlocks are grossly overpowered. We can assure you they are not the top damage dealers in the game, yet we are interested in your feedback. If you feel warlocks are overpowered can you list specific examples of exactly where and how you feel they are not inline with other classes? Or are you just butthurt because Lockednloaded got more kills than you in your last faceroll of a quest?

So you hate the game because it's too easy, yet you're against nerfs?

Warlocks have too much defense. Especially in heroics. That's the problem.

[slarden]

Thank you for being up front about hocking a loogie on my burger. The open lines of communication about it not only make it acceptable, I actually enjoy the loogie since you told me about it ahead of time. Wait a minute...???

Or perhaps, what you really mean by communication is open discourse...

We've heard a lot of players voicing the opinion that warlocks are grossly overpowered. We can assure you they are not the top damage dealers in the game, yet we are interested in your feedback. If you feel warlocks are overpowered can you list specific examples of exactly where and how you feel they are not inline with other classes? Or are you just butthurt because Lockednloaded got more kills than you in your last faceroll of a quest?

Steel gave us a few hints, although I am sure nothing is final yet. He acknowledged dps is not the problem and he said the change will be small.

I always thought they should fix warlock by making more damage subject to a save so that you had to choose between offense and defense. Instead they will likely just nerf the defense. Think something like 10-15% hp bonus instead of 20% in the capstone.

[Enoach]

Steel gave us a few hints, although I am sure nothing is final yet. He acknowledged dps is not the problem and he said the change will be small.

I always thought they should fix warlock by making more damage subject to a save so that you had to choose between offense and defense. Instead they will likely just nerf the defense. Think something like 10-15% hp bonus instead of 20% in the capstone.

Yes if I hazard a guess at how they would handle the change I too would guess they would go with the defense (Meaning Hit Points)

My feeling is it is not really the strength of the Bursts/Blast that is so much the issue as its range. It has the 360 of Whirlwind but it also goes much deeper than any of the Melee Cleaves. If they made an adjustment to these abilities in ES I hope it is with range and not damage numbers. Say reducing it to the same range as a cleave.

[karatemack]

Thank you for being up front about hocking a loogie on my burger. The open lines of communication about it not only make it acceptable, I actually enjoy the loogie since you told me about it ahead of time. Wait a minute...???

Or perhaps, what you really mean by communication is open discourse...

We've heard a lot of players voicing the opinion that warlocks are grossly overpowered. We can assure you they are not the top damage dealers in the game, yet we are interested in your feedback. If you feel warlocks are overpowered can you list specific examples of exactly where and how you feel they are not inline with other classes? Or are you just butthurt because Lockednloaded got more kills than you in your last faceroll of a quest?

You want easier content, and stronger characters. Neat.

There's no need to rehash all of the other arguments to be found as to the problems with Warlocks. While I agree that there are other builds which should be addressed first, Steel provided the reasons for the timing of the changes. You raised a concern, it was addressed. That's how open discourse works.

Or perhaps, what you really mean by open discourse is shouting the same points over and over again until people cave and agree with you.

[slarden]

Yes if I hazard a guess at how they would handle the change I too would guess they would go with the defense (Meaning Hit Points)

My feeling is it is not really the strength of the Bursts/Blast that is so much the issue as its range. It has the 360 of Whirlwind but it also goes much deeper than any of the Melee Cleaves. If they made an adjustment to these abilities in ES I hope it is with range and not damage numbers. Say reducing it to the same range as a cleave.

I agree with steel that dps isn't the issue. There is no point weakening dps at this point. They've already done that twice previously.

[Vulkoorex]

If it's the issue is not DPS, then most likely it's survivability.

My guess is Shining through will get nerfed. Either cost a lot of SP, longer cool down, or less temp HP.

[acdcrocks]

comeon now..

stop nerfing things and make endgame content actually difficult. 10 mobs in perfect triangular formation doing 300 damage/hit and 20k health with no resistances/immunities is not a challenge. Challenging content for these 'op' builds is what we need.. not more nerfs.

edit: dont stop with endgame, make a new nightmare difficulty where even those stupid ES warlocks struggle XD at all levels

[ramzes7asit4]

edit: dont stop with endgame, make a new nightmare difficulty where even those stupid ES warlocks struggle XD at all levels

Yeah, I really want to read the thread like "Nerf champions in Nightmare difficult", "Reduce count of mobs in Nightmare difficult", "Why mob kills everyone by a single attack in Nightmare difficult"...
I really don't think that player with skill will struggle by playing warlock without ES at all... But most of players can't do solo any of LE quest, because of lack of skill (I really hope that is false statement).

IMHO: fix ladder (ah-ha-ha), add search to augments bag/TR cache must have highest priority that any balance issue=)

[Forzah]

Thank you for being up front about hocking a loogie on my burger. The open lines of communication about it not only make it acceptable, I actually enjoy the loogie since you told me about it ahead of time. Wait a minute...???

Or perhaps, what you really mean by communication is open discourse...

We've heard a lot of players voicing the opinion that warlocks are grossly overpowered. We can assure you they are not the top damage dealers in the game, yet we are interested in your feedback. If you feel warlocks are overpowered can you list specific examples of exactly where and how you feel they are not inline with other classes? Or are you just butthurt because Lockednloaded got more kills than you in your last faceroll of a quest?

Chill, dude.