Warlock Balancing

[Requiro]

(...) So the mid-levels are where I'd be trying to target warlock nerfs (...)

Shining Through: Instead of "12x your Constitution Score" just "(1/2 Warlock Levels + 2) x your Constitution Score"

[Wipey]

Warlock is the worst thing that happened in this game.
The epitome of terrible direction this game ( especially the vast and complex magic system based on the long standing tradition and lore ) has taken in last two years, utterly unimaginative skilless gameplay and complete lack of design perspective - power versus content difficulty.

Especially the same stupid ES build that every single warlock is.

Don't wanna quote people but some decent players share the sentiment.

I really dislike the class, avoid and reject when I can.
And yes I have the class and played it.

Cue the apologist litanies.

[Duetotheseverity]

sight is op, we should play blind.

[cdbd3rd]

sight is op, we should play blind.

I don't wanna play blind, so no one else should be able to either...

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, it is an aberration.

Little to no SP management, excessive amount of defenses, and in my opinion boring gameplay (part of why it's taking forever for me to finish the current life).

Between TRs and eTRs I have done 5-6 warlock lives and I can honestly say that it is simply bad for the game as it stands.

They have changed things time and again but it is obvious that the core of the class is rotten. The design concept is bad, no save no SP consumption spam attacks will never be properly balanced.

[Enoach]

And after furyshot, do the following:

-Delete cocoon and most selfhealing skills.
-Improve the AI against kiting/perching
-Reduce all melee damage (at least of the best performing builds).
-With less healing option and better AI, mob damage can be reduced (no more one-shotting).
-Change fortification so that complete immunity to crits is no longer possible. The critical multiplier of mobs should be lower to offset this (this makes incoming damage more volatile and creates more excitement from having to save yourself).

On cocoon--
You know I've often wondered if they had implemented it as a cocoon - Were for 9 seconds you became inactive with the 90/120/150 acting as the HP of the cocoon would it be the primary healing option twisted in as it is today. But then when I think about it more if it was implemented that way it could potentially be a way to grief a person by freezing them for 9 seconds.

On Improve of AI
I actually want the AI improved especially for these types of situations. As players mobs have more than just a melee option. If they can't catch it, they should pull out a bow/xbow/spear etc. and fire it at the player. The first time an arrow goes through a line of mobs it should scatter, if a mob is standing in a field of fire, fog etc it should be trying to get out.

On fortification
No ability be it us or them should ever completely ignore fortification. We should not be able to gear (outside of being undead or elemental or ooze) over 200% fortification. Personally I think it should have stopped at about 150% (Heavy Fortification plus up to 50% stacking on top of that). But at the same time no single ability should be able to bypass more than 35%. I do think that immunity to critical damage needs to exist. As this prevents the pursuit of maximum critical damage from being the ultimate goal. But I also feel that there needs to be some mob protection vs Spell Critical Hits as well maybe something worked in as a calculation off Spell Resistance and MRR added to mobs.

[Cantor]

On cocoon--
You know I've often wondered if they had implemented it as a cocoon - Were for 9 seconds you became inactive with the 90/120/150 acting as the HP of the cocoon would it be the primary healing option twisted in as it is today. But then when I think about it more if it was implemented that way it could potentially be a way to grief a person by freezing them for 9 seconds.

On Improve of AI
I actually want the AI improved especially for these types of situations. As players mobs have more than just a melee option. If they can't catch it, they should pull out a bow/xbow/spear etc. and fire it at the player. The first time an arrow goes through a line of mobs it should scatter, if a mob is standing in a field of fire, fog etc it should be trying to get out.

On fortification
No ability be it us or them should ever completely ignore fortification. We should not be able to gear (outside of being undead or elemental or ooze) over 200% fortification. Personally I think it should have stopped at about 150% (Heavy Fortification plus up to 50% stacking on top of that). But at the same time no single ability should be able to bypass more than 35%. I do think that immunity to critical damage needs to exist. As this prevents the pursuit of maximum critical damage from being the ultimate goal. But I also feel that there needs to be some mob protection vs Spell Critical Hits as well maybe something worked in as a calculation off Spell Resistance and MRR added to mobs.

I would go further on fort. If it had never gone over say 75% max stacking every source wf or undead then we wouldn't have one hit mobs. That threat would have been there all along, but not every swing. Too late now though. We've moved far away from resource management type gameplay though.

[BigErkyKid]

Go Steelstar! Nuke hard! So glad that we have woken the dragon.

But don't stop there, we need some adjustment of PRR and to rebalance ranged combat.

[LT218]

So... you claim you only play warlocks because they're overpowered, why else would anyone spend money on them...

and... warlocks aren't overpowered or everyone would play them. (I think people don't play them because they are more boring than playing any other class, from limited personal experience)

Well, if people enjoy playing them because they're overpowered and other people do not play them because they're boring as a result of being overpowered, it would make that a self-correcting problem wouldn't it? Play them if you enjoy them, don't play them if you don't. Simple enough.

Honestly I don't understand the attitude that people pay for a class because it's the best. The devs should be trying to balance all classes in a manner that makes them all equally relevant to content overall (but ideally where they are strong in different content, not just all the same everywhere!), while you should buy a class because it has a different playstyle to other classes, because you like the flavor, because it looks cool, because it gives you more different choices and builds to play around with. Those are reasons that make sense to me personally.

People play a class/build because it's the best for the same reason that people buy high HP cars when they could buy a luxury car for the same price. Because it's fun to them. Some people want luxury, some want performance, some want both. To each their own. You don't see Toyota calling for all the 400+ HP production vehicles to be nerfed just because they make a Prius look boring, do you?

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that just because they don't enjoy something or playing a particular way doesn't mean that nobody else should either.

[Chilldude]

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that just because they don't enjoy something or playing a particular way doesn't mean that nobody else should either.

This is the crux of the warlock issue and Turbine would do well to take that into serious consideration. People aren't saying, "I feel too powerful when I'm playing warlock, please nerf me!!!" People are saying, "I feel that guy over there is too powerful, please nerf him!!!"

[ramzes7asit4]

This is the crux of the warlock issue and Turbine would do well to take that into serious consideration. People aren't saying, "I feel too powerful when I'm playing warlock, please nerf me!!!" People are saying, "I feel that guy over there is too powerful, please nerf him!!!"

What healers must say in this way?
"Nerf self-healing" or "Nerf amplification"?

[Thrudh]

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that just because they don't enjoy something or playing a particular way doesn't mean that nobody else should either.

I'm sure there are people who would enjoy a class that does 1 million AOE damage per click. Should the devs implement that? Is about what people would enjoy or balancing the game?

This isn't a solo-only game. Other people do affect a person's enjoyment of a quest or raid.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm sure there are people who would enjoy a class that does 1 million AOE damage per click. Should the devs implement that? Is about what people would enjoy or balancing the game?

This isn't a solo-only game. Other people do affect a person's enjoyment of a quest or raid.

QFT

Now we are talking.

[Elfishski]

Well, if people enjoy playing them because they're overpowered and other people do not play them because they're boring as a result of being overpowered, it would make that a self-correcting problem wouldn't it? Play them if you enjoy them, don't play them if you don't. Simple enough.


People play a class/build because it's the best for the same reason that people buy high HP cars when they could buy a luxury car for the same price. Because it's fun to them. Some people want luxury, some want performance, some want both. To each their own. You don't see Toyota calling for all the 400+ HP production vehicles to be nerfed just because they make a Prius look boring, do you?

A lot of people seem to have forgotten that just because they don't enjoy something or playing a particular way doesn't mean that nobody else should either.

Fair, just because I don't understand it doesn't mean you shouldn't have your fun (*though I think both luxury and HP cars are absurd too), but to say that you want them because they're overpowered, and that they shouldn't be nerfed because they're not overpowered is still a contradiction.

This is a regulated environment, not the real world. It's appropriate for devs to keep tinkering with rules to keep all the options as interesting as possible so one doesn't dominate the others. Calling it a bait and switch as I keep seeing is an over-reaction. Everyone knows that rebalancing is on the cards for all classes over time.

[Enoach]

This is the crux of the warlock issue and Turbine would do well to take that into serious consideration. People aren't saying, "I feel too powerful when I'm playing warlock, please nerf me!!!" People are saying, "I feel that guy over there is too powerful, please nerf him!!!"

But that does ignore the posts where people claim that the ES style of play is boring with the Burst/Burst/Shining through/Burst/Burst etc. and they are having a hard time leveling because they are bored.

The balance that is missed is that the Warlocks lower saves is not utilized against them enough to balance it out. But this is an environment issue. And the reason why evasion was so popular because the large part of the damage was Reflex based saves. And many Will saves negated by protection from evil and deathward/deathblock protecting instant death. We need mobs using more Evil Damage and less negative vs players.

[Thrudh]

It's pretty simple to balance a class...

Offense, Defense, Healing, Buffing/De-buffing, Movement.

These can be broken up into sub-categories....

Single-target offense
AOE offense
Burst offense

Single-target defensive CC (like stuns)
Multiple target CC
Physical defense
Magical defense
Evasion
Will saves
Reflex saves
Fortitude saves

Self-healing
Mass healing
Aura healing
Burst healing

Mass buffs/de-buffs
Stronger single-person buffs/boss de-buffs

Now... make 15 classes...

Nobody gets to be strong at everything or even most things. They should be excellent at 1 or 2 things, just okay at others, terrible at some. In general, the best offensive classes should have defensive weaknesses or healing weaknesses. And vice-versa.

Some offensive classes are good at AOE, some at single-target. Some classes are weak against physical attacks, but great against magical attacks.

This game USED to follow these simple rules very well.

Barbarians, great offensive, poor defense, very little healing.
Rogues used to be great at single-target, especially in a group where they could play smart, let someone else get aggro, and then use sneak attack.
Rogues were good at avoiding magical damage via evasion, but weak against physical attacks.

My fighter's big weakness back in the day was will saves.. He used to get held a lot. And it wasn't for 3 seconds. He had a real chance of death every time he got held. When did they change that? I completely dump wisdom, and ignore my saves now.

Every class should have a big DEADLY weakness.

But now, every class can do everything. It's insane that warlocks have the best defense, AND good offense.

[aGarde]

People crack me up. I play a warlock, it's powerful, but once you hit epics, it's no more powerful than any other toon. It has it's perks, and it will shine in certain content far more than others, based on it's build.

Now, to how you whiners crack me up.. Running TS at level, me on a NON-warlock toon. We had a warlock in the party. All the voice chatter was about how this guy was creaming everything, and warlocks are just so over powered. None bothered checking the actual kill count tho. I had over 2x more kills than all the rest of the party combined. The warlock wasn't even in 2nd place. But to listen to the chatter in game, that warlock was soloing the raid.

And in all honestly, most of my kills were me doing the only damage. yes, I was a mechanic rogue and most of that quest was made for me. Still, the voice chatter claimed it being solo'd by a warlock.

So.. you nerfer whiners crack me up, but in a sad kind of way.

[Zebedar]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

LOL sure

How about you guys actually promise to fix all the darn known issue bugs and screw ups before blowing sunshine up our skirts about wolf/tree nonsense eh? I mean its pretty clear at this point you are never going to do either so if your going to take the time to drop in on a thread to quiet the masses with more vague "in future" silliness why not hit the classics?


Anyone remember the 'we will focus on bugs!' line they tried to sell us at the beginning of the year? ROFLBO

[Requiro]

People crack me up. I play a warlock, it's powerful, but once you hit epics, it's no more powerful than any other toon. It has it's perks, and it will shine in certain content far more than others, based on it's build.

Now, to how you whiners crack me up.. Running TS at level, me on a NON-warlock toon. We had a warlock in the party. All the voice chatter was about how this guy was creaming everything, and warlocks are just so over powered. None bothered checking the actual kill count tho. I had over 2x more kills than all the rest of the party combined. The warlock wasn't even in 2nd place. But to listen to the chatter in game, that warlock was soloing the raid.

And in all honestly, most of my kills were me doing the only damage. yes, I was a mechanic rogue and most of that quest was made for me. Still, the voice chatter claimed it being solo'd by a warlock.

So.. you nerfer whiners crack me up, but in a sad kind of way.

Oh wait for Monk pass. That will be Whine Party on forum

[Duetotheseverity]

While we are still in the nerf bat discussion, the new zombie MM spam bot is op.

They deal a lot of damage and can kite mobs, almost as op as ranged toons.

Nerf pretty pls. Thx.