Collectables

[Maelphistez]

So you're actually suggesting...

**snip a bunch of baiting that has no bearing on anything I wrote**

So.... 1495 Turbine Points apiece.... end, over, done. Amiright?

My entire post was asking NoWorries to consider gating the ML shards through collectibles since that seems to make sense and make all of the effect shards require no collectibles. Just to be clear, I think it's obvious that at some point post adding all of these collectibles that they will add a larger collectible (red) bag. I think that's perfectly reasonable as you can either carry 5 Large red bags that are available at no real money cost in game or spend turbine points (available either for real money or for Turbine Points earned through normal game play) for a much larger single red bag. I would hope that at some point they address the weight of these bags as well since all of these collectibles can be incredibly heavy when carried en masse.

[Vellrad]

But what about all those players that want to be able to craft unlimited amounts of high level items on day 1, without farming for any of these rare collectables?

Can't detect sarcasm or serious anymore.
Too much internets.

[Splunge]

Are you serious? You are expecting a level 30 toon to be farming lv1-10 quests?

I've seen a lot of similar posts in this thread. I certainly understand why it's a problem, but it's nowhere near as bad as the level 1-10 toons that have to farm level 30 quests. Some people don't play epic levels.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I've seen a lot of similar posts in this thread. I certainly understand why it's a problem, but it's nowhere near as bad as the level 1-10 toons that have to farm level 30 quests. Some people don't play epic levels.

Find other real life Players to Trade with.

[Stoner81]

So you're actually suggesting...

• Shipwreck Salvers Crafting Crate

As you were washed up on the shore of Korthos island, things were fuzzy - until that Rogue brought you back to full consciousness. Fortunately, you had enough presence of mind to both spare his life and to grab this starter's crate of crafting ingredients - a rare and valuable collection of approximately 1000 Tier 1 and 2 ingredients from all 4 categories.

• Apprentice Crafter's Ingredient Crate

You are expanding your skills of making the finest magical equipment any heroic adventurer could need. This crate, filled with approximately 1000 Tier 3 and 4 ingredients from all 4 ingredient categories, will support your efforts to complete your crafting training.

• Epic Crafter's Ingredient Crate

The word is out: The whole of Xendrik is under threat from outside forces not foreseen. You must use all of your skills as an Epic Crafter to support adventurers in their efforts to end these threats. This crate, filled with approximately 1,000 Tier 5 and 6 ingredients from all 4 categories is what you need to assist in this fight.

So.... 1495 Turbine Points apiece.... end, over, done. Amiright?

Stoner81.

[CrideasBane]

My thought/concern/question about collectables has remained relatively the same over the past 11 years of DDO. Why is there not a way to exchange more common collectables for rarer collectables? Because what we all need is another 10,000 kobold prayer beads while trying to find the rare ones. For the extremely common I would be willing to go as high as 5 for a chance at the higher tier collectable. So common to semi-common then semi-common to rare.

Has this been talked about at all since it seem Cannith Crafting is going to be even more reliant on collectables?

Well, I made a suggestion about this (here)...

[CrideasBane]

Has anyone suggested a collectable trade-in vendor?

You change x Prayer Beads for Y Amber Vials, or X Prayer Beads for 1 Icon of Khyber? Because some quests are LOADED TO THE FRICKIN' GILLS with prayer beads and skull fragments, but no so much on the others.

That would do a lot to fix the situation.

I seem to recall that somebody might have suggested something like that...

[CrideasBane]

I am sad. Very Sad if this is the answer.

Collectible traders already exist in game: they are called Players.

What is so horrible about trading in game? Nothing - except it takes effort and you have to deal with other people... Ouch. Painful.

No I am not being sarcastic, ironic, nor sardonic - rather this cry for traders etc. instead of actually being social in a social game.

Sad day.

I don't think a vendor invalidates AH/ASAH or player trading... its just another option, its a safety net that I think needs to be there.

If you want players to trade stuff, they just need to beat the exchange rate that the vendor offers. That shouldn't be problematic.

Without the vendor, if you force players to rely on other players, what about players who play during off-peak hours? What about players who play on low-population servers with scarce markets? What about players who dont have anything to trade with others, and get bad RNG results from the nodes?

I am not saying we wouldn't want players to engage in trade, of course that is desirable. I just don't think it needs to be or should be the only way for a crafter to get what they need to enjoy crafting.

More options = better.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I don't think a vendor invalidates AH/ASAH or player trading... its just another option, its a safety net that I think needs to be there.

If you want players to trade stuff, they just need to beat the exchange rate that the vendor offers. That shouldn't be problematic.

Without the vendor, if you force players to rely on other players, what about players who play during off-peak hours? What about players who play on low-population servers with scarce markets? What about players who dont have anything to trade with others, and get bad RNG results from the nodes?

I am not saying we wouldn't want players to engage in trade, of course that is desirable. I just don't think it needs to be or should be the only way for a crafter to get what they need to enjoy crafting. More options = better.

npc traders defeat the purpose of a social game - and in fact IMHO tread on the very withered soul of DDO.

Guilds - and Offline trading happen, can trade via the forums. Heck the one real redeeming feature of the Anniversary Card event was cross-server trading !

low population servers? mean should be even easier! everybody knows everyone is related to one-another and probably in the same 3 guilds.

Don't have something to trade? well Cannith Essences are / will be always in demand! Skill tomes (unbound from chests).... and so on. There is always a way to horse trade.

And if that doesn't work - just buy what you need from the turbine store!

So IMHO that is more than enough acquisitions streams - any more and the value of the opportunity cost is so depreciated that the current state of all economies only gets worse.

[UurlockYgmeov]

So you're actually suggesting...

• Shipwreck Salvers Crafting Crate

As you were washed up on the shore of Korthos island, things were fuzzy - until that Rogue brought you back to full consciousness. Fortunately, you had enough presence of mind to both spare his life and to grab this starter's crate of crafting ingredients - a rare and valuable collection of approximately 1000 Tier 1 and 2 ingredients from all 4 categories.

• Apprentice Crafter's Ingredient Crate

You are expanding your skills of making the finest magical equipment any heroic adventurer could need. This crate, filled with approximately 1000 Tier 3 and 4 ingredients from all 4 ingredient categories, will support your efforts to complete your crafting training.

• Epic Crafter's Ingredient Crate

The word is out: The whole of Xendrik is under threat from outside forces not foreseen. You must use all of your skills as an Epic Crafter to support adventurers in their efforts to end these threats. This crate, filled with approximately 1,000 Tier 5 and 6 ingredients from all 4 categories is what you need to assist in this fight.

So.... 1495 Turbine Points apiece.... end, over, done. Amiright?

cheaper. there were two different boxes in the Lamannia store when it was last open. One for rares, and got to choose which rare collectible - and it gave you 5 of them.

[Vyrzain]

I do find it of some interest that UurlockYgmeov, of the Players Council, is informing us to find other players to Trade with or to post on the AH in regards to the collectible issue.

Does he / she not see that the servers are low in population and it is hard just to find people just to do a Raid with?
At least that is how it is on the Servers I play on the day and times I am able.

I do group with two other V.I.P. players, once a week, to play DDO and I can tell you right now that we do not have what is needed to craft anymore when this goes live. It is hard enough for our Artificer to make even personal low level items now with what he collects.

We started our newest campaign of DDO in January 2016 and as of today we are level 18 with only 590,000 plat average per Character.
I just checked my bags and I only have 814 greater Essences and this was collected from Day one about 8 months ago. I was waiting to see how the new Crafting system would turn out before crafting myself on this new Character.

As per collectibles, again saving from Day one, I have one small Eberron Dragon Shard Fragment, 7,300 Siberys, 3,417 Khyber and 92 slots of the other crafting collectibles and the largest amount of these is 145 ‘String of Prayer Beads’. So maybe on average I may have only 15 of each type of collectible.

As others have posted if something is not done before release of the next patch then the Crafting update is a possible failure.

[CrideasBane]

npc traders defeat the purpose of a social game - and in fact IMHO tread on the very withered soul of DDO.

Guilds - and Offline trading happen, can trade via the forums. Heck the one real redeeming feature of the Anniversary Card event was cross-server trading !

low population servers? mean should be even easier! everybody knows everyone is related to one-another and probably in the same 3 guilds.

Don't have something to trade? well Cannith Essences are / will be always in demand! Skill tomes (unbound from chests).... and so on. There is always a way to horse trade.

And if that doesn't work - just buy what you need from the turbine store!

So IMHO that is more than enough acquisitions streams - any more and the value of the opportunity cost is so depreciated that the current state of all economies only gets worse.

Ok, you think that is 'more than enough'... for you.

What about others who do not agree? Should they lose out because there is already enough for you?

I do not think the majority of players are active on the forums, so that would disqualify the forums as a relevant means to address the concern.

Low population servers mean there are less people running the content, which means less chances that the collectibles are looted, which means the supply will not be sufficient to allow for the assumption that there will 'always be' some available for trading. The vendor mitigates this frustration for crafters, as long as they put the time in to get their hands on *some* collectibles... even if they trade for what meager amounts are out there that are not the ones they actually need, the vendor allows them to convert to what they need.

The other items you mention for trade may not be in the crafter's posession for the purpose of trading, or more likely, the person the crafter wants to trade with does not need any of what the crafter has. Should the other person be expected to simply make a bad deal with the crafter out of a sense of charity?

And this one, I am about to point out is a major peeve of mine. I like to be social... *sometimes*, and other times I like to *solo*. It depends on my mood. I should be able to enjoy the game the way I want to regardless of whether I am in social or solo mode. I am very confident I am not alone in this. I am also a paying customer. I am sure many others are as well. If we don't feel like hitting trade channel or we don't want to scavenge the AH, we should have another reliable way to get the collectibles we need to enjoy crafting. If you *force* us to do things we don't want to do, we *stop playing* and we *stop paying*.

Running content makes perfect sense for that, but the possibility that we would completely and absolutely waste our time based on RNG from the nodes is a totally avoidable outcome, and the safety net provided by a vendor handily addresses that avoidable outcome - without requiring a full redesign of the crafting recipes or the collectible node system.

The vendor idea will not stifle trade. That premise is false. What it will do is remove a potential frustration for those who cannot or do not want to pursue the avenues you have put forth as 'more than enough'.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I do find it of some interest that UurlockYgmeov, of the Players Council, is informing us to find other players to Trade with or to post on the AH in regards to the collectible issue.

The fact that a person is on the PC or has been or will be is moot. When these people post on the public forums they are posting their own personal opinions, and these opinions do not reflect the opinion of Turbine, its employees, the Players Council, or in fact any other individual, group or organization.

The fact that you have decided to bring that topic into this thread speak very ill of your choice to bring it in.

Yes, your perception is that server populations are low. My personal perception is that a) the pollution has very little to do with the topic at hand, and b) even if it did, my opinion is that server populations are healthy and growing albeit lower than the zenith of yesterday, and that the CCUP will only help the populations.

I for one am just fed up with the public lynching the members of the PC (past and present) get, and hopefully the future will bode a better environment for PC members. IF your opinion of the PC is low, then in January ask to be a part of the 2017 PC and change things.

If you don't like the population of your server - then be part of the solution! Whining never fixed buffalo chips, but ACTIONS do - so recruit people - adopt new players and help your server. Its like if you don't vote - don't complain about who gets elected. Same thing goes for the dearth of LFM's - post one! keep posting! Recruit, adopt and support new players.

Collectibles will be healthy - the changes posted by Turbine in this thread ensure it. Will the 'artificially' rare and new collectibles suddenly become abundant the day of U32's release? No, but given a short amount of time things will vastly improve.

Is the system perfect? No, but it is IMHO vastly improved. I want more choices in ring effects, many want the costs adjusted for effect shards, I want a few missing effects and several static effects improved by making them scaling. I want more types of ammunition, higher level runestones, and so much that well - here's the thread: The tale of the three forks : the Cannith Crafting Update pass.

The vendor idea will not stifle trade. That premise is false. What it will do is remove a potential frustration for those who cannot or do not want to pursue the avenues you have put forth as 'more than enough'.

Actually historically and empirically whenever something becomes available through a NPC trader, trade on that item or items has declined to a point where it barely exists.

By its very nature - NPC traders diminish social trading. Why bother trading with real players when you can just talk to a NPC instead. I know I'd sometimes prefer it - but since it hasn't happened (and hopefully never does) - I will rail against ever becoming a reality. The social aspects of the game have so greatly diminished that LFM's are becoming scarcer and scarcer, or just private channels being used. What really sucks about that is it doesn't actually reflect the server populations and people complain about how the lack of LFM's are proof that server populations are low. Even worse it becomes a catch 22, because when people scream about server populations because of lack of LFMs (when they are not posting any themselves!) - the new players who actually read the forums see this and leave. *doh*

Trading (using /trade /say /yell etc) is a tried and true method that has been in DDO since the beginning of DDO. I am merely reminding players that it is a valuable viable choice that will help them if they choose to use it.? Social interaction builds a player base because people gain familiarity and grow attached because of other real players, not Bumblecruck Nameless Bob the NPC.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

npc traders defeat the purpose of a social game - and in fact IMHO tread on the very withered soul of DDO.

Guilds - and Offline trading happen, can trade via the forums. Heck the one real redeeming feature of the Anniversary Card event was cross-server trading !

I don't play on other servers. Guess that leaves me out. I'm the best crafter in my (small) guild... guess that leaves me out, too, since my guildies are expressing interest in crafting. They're going to want to keep their stuff for themselves now - and I'm going to want to help them out as much as I can.

low population servers? mean should be even easier! everybody knows everyone is related to one-another and probably in the same 3 guilds.

Left out of this, too.

Don't have something to trade? well Cannith Essences are / will be always in demand! Skill tomes (unbound from chests).... and so on. There is always a way to horse trade.

Hmm. Let's see. Trade something either at a ruinous rate, or that I myself need (if I have enough essences that I don't mind trading, sure as shooting so does the other person so the price will be jacked up to a price that no... and if the price is something I think reasonable, chances are pretty good I'll need the essences myself). The other option (skill tomes) I'm not gonna even comment on, considering I've gotten like 2 ever that weren't bound somehow.

And if that doesn't work - just buy what you need from the turbine store!

Oh yes. Just throw money at it. Yeah, *that's* a good strategy. In other words: No.

So IMHO that is more than enough acquisitions streams - any more and the value of the opportunity cost is so depreciated that the current state of all economies only gets worse.

That's nice. You wouldn't have to use them if you didn't want to. Others of us would rather play in other ways than spend time trying to trade stuff. I have better stuff to do with my time than hang out in the Marketplace or on the forums trying to trade stuff. I have better stuff to do with my money than buy stuff for crafting. ALL your options leave me out. An NPC trader, on the other hand? Doesn't.

Don't advocate taking away *my* options (or in this case, not giving them to me) just because *you're* not interested.

[CrideasBane]

<snip>

Actually historically and empirically whenever something becomes available through a NPC trader, trade on that item or items has declined to a point where it barely exists.

Citation needed.

By its very nature - NPC traders diminish social trading.

This premise only applies if the NPCs are offering commodities at rates that cannot be beaten by other means. If the trader gives a low exchange rate merely to provide a safety net for the unfortunate, there will be sufficient reason for players who wish to, to avail themselves of trade opportunities with fellow players. In all my comments, I have characterized the proposed exchange rate that might be used as merely 'reasonable' and 'fair', but I have never once supported it being 'attractive', especially not to the extent that everyone would rely solely on the vendor. The vendor is proposed as a fallback measure and safety net. I would respectfully ask that you stop trying to mischaracterize it.

In an ideal word the nodes would cooperate and remove any such concerns, but that cannot be the case due to RNG. The vendor concept is a reasonable compromise.

Why bother trading with real players when you can just talk to a NPC instead. I know I'd sometimes prefer it - but since it hasn't happened (and hopefully never does) - I will rail against ever becoming a reality. The social aspects of the game have so greatly diminished that LFM's are becoming scarcer and scarcer, or just private channels being used. What really sucks about that is it doesn't actually reflect the server populations and people complain about how the lack of LFM's are proof that server populations are low. Even worse it becomes a catch 22, because when people scream about server populations because of lack of LFMs (when they are not posting any themselves!) - the new players who actually read the forums see this and leave. *doh*

Trading (using /trade /say /yell etc) is a tried and true method that has been in DDO since the beginning of DDO. I am merely reminding players that it is a valuable viable choice that will help them if they choose to use it.? Social interaction builds a player base because people gain familiarity and grow attached because of other real players, not Bumblecruck Nameless Bob the NPC.

I have had good success with the LFM's I have done over the last couple weeks, even as a new player on a low-population server. Your experience does not reflect my own, and your statement, while it might be considered evidential, is not proof of your premise. When I have sought player contact, I have gotten it. I just don't always seek it, and do not support the idea that it be a requirement to enjoy activities that can otherwise be performed solo (ie. Crafting).

Thank you for the reminder that we have the *option* to trade with other players. Let's make sure it remains an *option*, so others who may not seek that experience can still enjoy the game how they wish?

Myself I do not feel that can reasonably be characterized as 'more than enough' ways to gain enjoyment from the new crafting system. Nor is it fair to characterize all NPC vendors as the Impetus for Decline of Social Gaming, which is intellectually dishonest and hyberbolic at best. The only thing that stops players from being social is *the choices of those players*. There is no call or justification to artificially incentivize (ie. manipulate) them against their choice.

Implemented properly, both concerns can be adequately addressed.

p.s. as for being part of the solution for 'Low Server populations'... I am quite happy to be part of that. The best and fastest way to do it is not through recruiting people by 'selling them' on the game as it is. The best and fastest way to improve the playerbase population (and retain those players) is through helping Turbine to make the game itself better and more fun for more people, so that the game *sells itself*.

[elvesunited]

I've seen a lot of similar posts in this thread. I certainly understand why it's a problem, but it's nowhere near as bad as the level 1-10 toons that have to farm level 30 quests. Some people don't play epic levels.

I thought about that and looked into it. Nearly all the epic level effects are insightful or non-scaling. Now if you've got a heroic level toon with insightful equipment you're more of a power gamer than me. I just don't see the need for it. Heroic content simply isn't that tough. But simple non-scaling effects like Blindness Ward, Invulnerability and Ghost Touch are requiring epic level ingredients. ( Ghost touch! ) That just makes me shake my head.


I once saw someone playing elder scrolls online and just running around a field picking up plants. Apparently he spent 3 hours a week just picking up potion ingredients. Shudder.

[Qhualor]

I do find it of some interest that UurlockYgmeov, of the Players Council, is informing us to find other players to Trade with or to post on the AH in regards to the collectible issue.

Does he / she not see that the servers are low in population and it is hard just to find people just to do a Raid with?
At least that is how it is on the Servers I play on the day and times I am able.

I do group with two other V.I.P. players, once a week, to play DDO and I can tell you right now that we do not have what is needed to craft anymore when this goes live. It is hard enough for our Artificer to make even personal low level items now with what he collects.

We started our newest campaign of DDO in January 2016 and as of today we are level 18 with only 590,000 plat average per Character.
I just checked my bags and I only have 814 greater Essences and this was collected from Day one about 8 months ago. I was waiting to see how the new Crafting system would turn out before crafting myself on this new Character.

As per collectibles, again saving from Day one, I have one small Eberron Dragon Shard Fragment, 7,300 Siberys, 3,417 Khyber and 92 slots of the other crafting collectibles and the largest amount of these is 145 ‘String of Prayer Beads’. So maybe on average I may have only 15 of each type of collectible.

As others have posted if something is not done before release of the next patch then the Crafting update is a possible failure.

one thing the community has suggested in the past is a open world Trade channel. you could be in a quest in House K trying to trade collectibles with someone in the Harbor, for example. nobody really likes to stand in the MP or Harbor trying to do trades with the dozens of players in that area when they could be running around doing other things too. this would be a great opportunity to make this happen.

the Trade channel has been dead since the introduction of the P2WAH. players have fell out of doing trades that was very prevalent in the past. in the meantime, with more named items becoming bound, plat losing lots of value and so few things of value to do trades, there has been little reason to do trades. now it seems to me that collectibles will be a good way to kick start the trading market again as they now suddenly have become very valuable. I see nothing wrong with trading with players if players, for whatever reason they give, don't want to take the time to farm easy to get cabinets, mushrooms and packs to acquire ingredients they want to craft items. at any given time there is hundreds of players logged into their server, except maybe Wayfinder, so the numbers are there but because of many reasons outside of this particular discussion, player perception believes their server is a ghost town. to be honest, I really don't understand why some people here are so against the incentive to bring back trading or use trading as something that is negative.

[CrideasBane]

one thing the community has suggested in the past is a open world Trade channel. you could be in a quest in House K trying to trade collectibles with someone in the Harbor, for example. nobody really likes to stand in the MP or Harbor trying to do trades with the dozens of players in that area when they could be running around doing other things too. this would be a great opportunity to make this happen.

the Trade channel has been dead since the introduction of the P2WAH. players have fell out of doing trades that was very prevalent in the past. in the meantime, with more named items becoming bound, plat losing lots of value and so few things of value to do trades, there has been little reason to do trades. now it seems to me that collectibles will be a good way to kick start the trading market again as they now suddenly have become very valuable. I see nothing wrong with trading with players if players, for whatever reason they give, don't want to take the time to farm easy to get cabinets, mushrooms and packs to acquire ingredients they want to craft items. at any given time there is hundreds of players logged into their server, except maybe Wayfinder, so the numbers are there but because of many reasons outside of this particular discussion, player perception believes their server is a ghost town. to be honest, I really don't understand why some people here are so against the incentive to bring back trading or use trading as something that is negative.

To reiterate and clarify in case you are including me in the "some people here are so against the incentive to bring back trading or use trading as something that is negative".

I do not have anything against trading as a concept, nor do I have any issue with players who wish to, utilizing that option. Its a good option when it applies.

My concern and frustration is with this notion that any alternative to trading suddenly devalues and invalidates trading as an option. It is simply untrue, and making this assumption is unfair to players for whom trading is not attractive or possible.

[changelingamuck]

I do find it of some interest that UurlockYgmeov, of the Players Council, is informing us to find other players to Trade with or to post on the AH in regards to the collectible issue.

And changelingamuck, of the Players Council, has a directly opposing opinion to UurlockYgmeov, of the Players Council, in that he believes that an NPC trader should be created to exchange collectibles for other collectibles in different level-range tiers.

Being a part of a focus group means that we're data points. We're not supposed to be a hive-mind of wise old expert stewards of the game who are unquestionably correct in our brilliant insights about game design.

I would think twice about taking Uurlock's suggestion to apply to the Players Council next year though. Because once you're in it, you've got a big old bull's-eye painted on your forehead for the little group of constantly posting, perma-raging forumites to hone in on because they see you as the next best thing to a dev to jump all over with their vitriol. Imagine if you were filling out a customer feedback card at a restaurant and the most perpetually hateful customers in the place started coming up to you and pouring contempt on you because you're opinions of the restaurant weren't "right" and how they're appalled that you were blessed with the privilege of giving feedback to the restaurant. It's like that, except it's on the internet--the place that makes all social interaction worse.

That being said, you're correct that Uurlock is wrong.

[slarden]

I don't have as much of a problem with the collectible cost of others.

However current crafting costs are:

Prefix: 15 commons, 5 uncommons
Suffix: 15 commons, 5 uncommons
Bonus: 15 commons, 5 uncommons, 5 PED

I think this mix would work better as it would let me people craft more items at a lower cost and they only pay the high cost when adding a bonus ability

Prefix: 6 commons, 2 uncommons
Suffix: 6 commons, 2 uncommons
Bonus: 33 commons, 11 uncommons, 5 PED

Cost is the same but if people are willing to delay or go without the bonus item it's much cheaper. The real value of the crafting system is the bonus ability - at all levels - so that is where the cost should be concentrated.