Collectables

[CrideasBane]

I think this is where you are confused...you are not wasting your time because you are going and getting something you need. There are a variety of needs in the game and if mats to craft are one for you then you have to go get them. Perhaps what you meant to say is that the process isn't as efficient as you'd like or you'd like to be able to multi-task and get mats while achieving something else. That is fine and understandable but at the end of the day your time is not wasted as you are accomplishing something. Just like on an iconic life I have to go run some coin lord and House K favor so I can empty my cache...I'm not accomplishing anything else at that time but it has to be done for me to TR.
I think you should consider "natural process" and apply it more generally. The natural process to get the desired tod ring or +4 tome you wanted back in the day was running 20 tods. The natural process to level is running bravery bonus quests. The natural process to craft will be to purchase or farm for mats when you need them; it doesn't have to be a good or bad thing, but a reality that you have to spend time and effort to acquire what you aspire in the game. I guess we could just whine and ask that all the mats just be given to us or made easy...or taken away all together but there's nothing wrong with some cost for the gear we're going to wear.

The problem is that high level crafters running that low level content does not grant definitive progress towards the goal. If RNG does not cooperate, the time is totally wasted with no benefit whatsoever. I think some if not all of the examples you used involve some guaranteed progress towards your goal, so I suspect its not quite a valid comparison.

[ice584]

There has been a lot of discussing about collectables lately with the changes to Cannith Crafting. We thought it might be useful to give more details on how collectable drops have changed and what players can expect.
... but for the most part the old collectables drop as players would expect.
... Collectables will start showing up in non-Eberron content

With no mention of changes to drop rates, crafting recipe costs, or weighting percentages...are we to assume that "Collectibles will start showing up in non-Eberron content" is the only thing being offered in response to requests for lower collectible costs?

I could certainly be wrong, but I can't imagine this alone will increase the amount of collectibles you get much at all...especially if a majority of the content you run is already Eberron; if you're on the TR train, for example.

OR, is this a separate topic being discussed internally?

[kain741]

The problem is that high level crafters running that low level content does not grant definitive progress towards the goal. If RNG does not cooperate, the time is totally wasted with no benefit whatsoever. I think some if not all of the examples you used involve some guaranteed progress towards your goal, so I suspect its not quite a valid comparison.

I disagree. I completed more than one 20th ToD waiting for my ring...as I suspect others have as well. A quest can fail. Nothing is guaranteed or given. I agree, it is a farm. There are many nodes at the start of many quests that will take 10 seconds to loot, recall and reset. I do not argue that it will be a farm...in fact it will be, just like anything else in the game you want. What you are asking for is to be able to make any CC recipe you want with no additional investment at all. For the level of gear and flexibility we are receiving on the loot the time investment is minimal. If it takes you an extra 15-20 minutes (or even more) to farm in order to perfectly craft the piece you need to complete your setup then so be it. This is not forced upon anyone IMO it is a favor to assist us in rounding things out...the least we can do is get what is needed to complete it.

[CrideasBane]

I disagree. I completed more than one 20th ToD waiting for my ring...as I suspect others have as well. A quest can fail. Nothing is guaranteed or given. I agree, it is a farm. There are many nodes at the start of many quests that will take 10 seconds to loot, recall and reset. I do not argue that it will be a farm...in fact it will be, just like anything else in the game you want. What you are asking for is to be able to make any CC recipe you want with no additional investment at all. For the level of gear and flexibility we are receiving on the loot the time investment is minimal. If it takes you an extra 15-20 minutes (or even more) to farm in order to perfectly craft the piece you need to complete your setup then so be it. This is not forced upon anyone IMO it is a favor to assist us in rounding things out...the least we can do is get what is needed to complete it.

I don't think you have fairly characterized what was been said. Disagreement is fine, if you disagree with what people have actually said. Seems more like you are disagreeing with something you imagined rather than what people have said.

I could go through it point by point in an attempt to clarify, but based on your comments so far, my confidence is rather low that you would be willing to adjust your stance. Bottom line, there is a valid concern here, and there have been some entirely reasonable suggestions for handling that concern.

[kain741]

I don't think you have fairly characterized what was been said. Disagreement is fine, if you disagree with what people have actually said. Seems more like you are disagreeing with something you imagined rather than what people have said.

I could go through it point by point in an attempt to clarify, but based on your comments so far, my confidence is rather low that you would be willing to adjust your stance. Bottom line, there is a valid concern here, and there have been some entirely reasonable suggestions for handling that concern.

I should clarify, my disagreement was directly in response to your statement that they all give guaranteed progress. They do not as I clarified. I do not think the system is perfect and clearly there are a lot of dissenters here to how it works. My goal just as yours isn't to necessarily sway me to think like you do, difference is good some time. My goal is to say I think it is ok that the crafting system requires people to go beyond dipping in there bag for mats when there ready to craft some times. Scrolling down through the post I got the impression that everyone thought the components needed should be basically automatic and no additional work should be necessary to create twink or endgame gear. IMO and maybe just mine, not every things should just be given and easy....and let's not get confused, farming these mats will not be difficult. But those that want to go do it can benefit from crafting or from utilizing the market as is intended.
If they scrapped the level system and went to something else completely I would be fine with that as well. I just don't think it has to be wrong because we have to work for it.

[CrideasBane]

I should clarify, my disagreement was directly in response to your statement that they all give guaranteed progress. They do not as I clarified. I do not think the system is perfect and clearly there are a lot of dissenters here to how it works. My goal just as yours isn't to necessarily sway me to think like you do, difference is good some time. My goal is to say I think it is ok that the crafting system requires people to go beyond dipping in there bag for mats when there ready to craft some times. Scrolling down through the post I got the impression that everyone thought the components needed should be basically automatic and no additional work should be necessary to create twink or endgame gear. IMO and maybe just mine, not every things should just be given and easy....and let's not get confused, farming these mats will not be difficult. But those that want to go do it can benefit from crafting or from utilizing the market as is intended.
If they scrapped the level system and went to something else completely I would be fine with that as well. I just don't think it has to be wrong because we have to work for it.

It is not about difficulty - nobody said it was. It is about time investment. The RNG aspect of looting collectibles is what opens the door to totally wasted time investment for higher level PCs.

The objection has not been about needing to get the collectible. In some cases the objection has been to do with the amount required, and in other cases, with the risk of *completely* wasting of one's time running low-level content for the *chance* to *possibly* get the collectible needed if the RNG does not cooperate. There is no enjoyment or value added to the game in such a situation, and it is reasonable to expect that the concern will justify reasonable measures to avoid it.

The purpose of crafting is to give players alternative to random loot. If RNG controls crafting, it is not fit for purpose.

RNG already can *influence* crafting to a significant extent, but players usually have recourse. The collectibles are the area where the new system could go from RNG *influencing* crafting to outright *controlling* players ability to craft.

The suggestion have not been aimed at being able to craft for 'free', or making it 'easy'. These are your unfair mischaracterizations.

Just leveling crafting to even attempt some of the valuable recipes is not 'free' or 'easy', and stating or implying that it is can be fairly described as intellectually dishonest and disingenuous.

Even after that point, if the collectibles are required there needs to be a reasonable way for crafters of various levels to obtain them in an *enjoyable* fashion.

My suggestion was a mechanics to exchange/convert, because this does not invalidate the need to run content to collect the items, nor does it invalidate the benefits of using the AH/ASAH or trading with other players... but it *does* provide a safety net to those with abyssmal luck who could end up repeatedly failing to obtain what they need even after running the low-level content over and over with absolutely zero benefit for their time investment.

[Qhualor]

I cant find it now, but I remember finding an older guide I think on these forums that talked about the best places to farm certain collectibles. it listed quests like Haunted Library, Haverdasher, Tangleroot, The Enemy Within and Waterworks. back then it was about Silver Flame Hymnals, Deadly Feverblanch and Sparkling Dust for crafting in the Stone of Change, but I used the guide to farm these collectibles at level 20 cap. we didn't have quest resets back then, so I came up with a route around Eberron farming for these collectibles. I certainly looted a lot of useless collectibles, but once a week I would run around town turning in collectibles to the NPCs andget around 10-20k. this was back when gold was the currency, not plat or AS and collectibles for crafting were considered very expensive to buy. maybe someone will come up with a new guide (hint, hint). I honestly don't really see a problem with time consumption for higher level players having to jump into lower level quests to get collectibles for crafting or RNG. players used to do this back in the day and they also would stop long enough to grab collectibles while leveling in quests. there was also a trade market for collectibles, one that I am slowly starting to see again.

[CrideasBane]

I cant find it now, but I remember finding an older guide I think on these forums that talked about the best places to farm certain collectibles. it listed quests like Haunted Library, Haverdasher, Tangleroot, The Enemy Within and Waterworks. back then it was about Silver Flame Hymnals, Deadly Feverblanch and Sparkling Dust for crafting in the Stone of Change, but I used the guide to farm these collectibles at level 20 cap. we didn't have quest resets back then, so I came up with a route around Eberron farming for these collectibles. I certainly looted a lot of useless collectibles, but once a week I would run around town turning in collectibles to the NPCs andget around 10-20k. this was back when gold was the currency, not plat or AS and collectibles for crafting were considered very expensive to buy. maybe someone will come up with a new guide (hint, hint). I honestly don't really see a problem with time consumption for higher level players having to jump into lower level quests to get collectibles for crafting or RNG. players used to do this back in the day and they also would stop long enough to grab collectibles while leveling in quests. there was also a trade market for collectibles, one that I am slowly starting to see again.

I agree with most of what you said, except for the conflation of Time Consumption with Time Wasting. Crafting is supposed to consume time, like anything else to do in the game. What it, or anything else in the game really, should not do is totally waste time.

[elvesunited]

The biggest problem with running low level quests to get collectables is how it's a not even enough of a challenge to keep you eyes open. At least with devil assault epic normal runs you're facing an enemy that will kill you if you fall asleep.

And yes the market may supply collectibles. But ever since the Crafting update started gaining speed, I've gone on the auction house and checked if I could grab some collectibles. I've lost every auction. Demand far exceeds supply.

[changelingamuck]

I cant find it now, but I remember finding an older guide I think on these forums that talked about the best places to farm certain collectibles. it listed quests like Haunted Library, Haverdasher, Tangleroot, The Enemy Within and Waterworks. back then it was about Silver Flame Hymnals, Deadly Feverblanch and Sparkling Dust for crafting in the Stone of Change, but I used the guide to farm these collectibles at level 20 cap. we didn't have quest resets back then, so I came up with a route around Eberron farming for these collectibles. I certainly looted a lot of useless collectibles, but once a week I would run around town turning in collectibles to the NPCs andget around 10-20k. this was back when gold was the currency, not plat or AS and collectibles for crafting were considered very expensive to buy. maybe someone will come up with a new guide (hint, hint). I honestly don't really see a problem with time consumption for higher level players having to jump into lower level quests to get collectibles for crafting or RNG. players used to do this back in the day and they also would stop long enough to grab collectibles while leveling in quests. there was also a trade market for collectibles, one that I am slowly starting to see again.

I used to run back to the airship after almost every quest in order to re-buff too. And I used to manually re-slot guild augments into items constantly because guild augments expired after a short time unlike our current augments. The old ways are not always the best ways (sometimes they're the worst).

I know that some people used to farm Fragrant Drowshoods for the Stone of Change ritual. The question is, how many of them enjoyed it. The farming that you describe in this quote sounds awful. And following a guide to boring, auto-pilot zooming from collectible node to collectible node to collectible node... sounds awful. It's like the definition of disengaged, brain-dead gameplay.

This quest level-range determined collectible dropping really needs to be eliminated.

[CrideasBane]

I used to run back to the airship after almost every quest in order to re-buff too. And I used to manually re-slot guild augments into items constantly because guild augments expired after a short time unlike our current augments. The old ways are not always the best ways (sometimes they're the worst).

I know that some people used to farm Fragrant Drowshoods for the Stone of Change ritual. The question is, how many of them enjoyed it. The farming that you describe in this quote sounds awful. And following a guide to boring, auto-pilot zooming from collectible node to collectible node to collectible node... sounds awful. It's like the definition of disengaged, brain-dead gameplay.

This quest level-range determined collectible dropping really needs to be eliminated.

I think we agree one the root problem, if I am understanding where you are coming from.

Without redesigning the recipes or how the collectible nodes work there could be another solution. If you run level-appropriate content and have access to exchange the collectibles you do get from level-appropriate content for multiple items of lower tiers, or exchange stacks to trade-up to higher tier collectibles, it won't be as efficient as actually getting the stuff you need from the node, but it will make getting *anything* from a node worth *something* for crafting.

[dunklezhan]

Um... so where do Eberron Dragonshard fragments fit into all this then? I.e. the pre-purified eberron dragonshard fragments? They aren't on the list, so are they still just a 1% chance from any node?

That is one approach. Another is to trade with other players as it gives players of all levels useful tradeable goods.

Its kinda wierd that on the one hand you want to increase opportunity for player interaction with collectibles, but then on the other hand seem to want to kill it dead by insisting on the PEBS requirement for unbound crafting. Mixed messages much?*

Also, I would predict no crafter is going to trade rare ingredients ever, given the quantities involved in recipes. On the plus side, non crafters are going to make a fortune on the AH (and that's a good thing)

I just hope they don't put things on for crazy prices like they used to with shroud ingredients. I am not paying 100K plat for a collectible - whether I can afford it or not - I'll just do without). Or that they'll try to make a packet on the shard exchange which I don't use.

Ah well. Since on both counts that's exactly what people are gonna do, and since others do use the shard exchange and will pay outrageous prices for collectibles, I guess I'll be falling behind the crafting curve then.


Also can we know what is meant by common, uncommon, rare? I mean when you say 'rare' is that a similar 1% to eberron fragments, or is it more like 5%?


*my apologies if I'm missing something obvious. Someone in another thread said that PEBS were 'easy' to get but I've looked at the wiki repeatedly and I've been to the crafting hall and looked at the turn in list and looked in my bags at how many small/medium/large fragments I've had since 2009 and... well, I just don't understand that statement. Fragments allegedly have a 1% chance of of dropping, and they don't appear in any particular tier or from any particular spot so you can't go hunting them. Tomes only seem to drop once per life if you attain the necessary favour, other than that they no longer seem to drop in game at all unless you get lucky on a daily roll. Tokens of the 12 drop in epic levels only. So... what's 'easy' about that?

[mrtreats]

As i have said for years make the bags that drop auto collected like you did with the Fragments of the Twelve also wish this was done for remnants sometimes you just cant see them in the piles of dead bodies

[dunklezhan]

My suggestion is that down the line you also provide a small chance to get a random mat from any tier when you crunch an item.

I think it should be better than that. How about when you get a critical success crunching you should get a rare collectible of a tier appropriate to the item or shard being crunched*, or possibly just give out a single PEBS on a crit-crunch? In the current system a critical success yields greater essences, and I don't think I've heard what the critical success effect is in the new system so assuming there's still time to change it, this is what I'd suggest.

*in the case of shards, the 'tier' should correspond to the tiers 1-3 of crafting effects, or simply the ML of a ML shard.

[Wizza]

That is one approach. Another is to trade with other players as it gives players of all levels useful tradeable goods.

Are you serious? You are expecting a level 30 toon to be farming lv1-10 quests?

There won't be even enough supplies when U32 drops because your collectables requirements are absurd, that means trading won't be nowhere enough to supply the demand.


Then you want people to trade goods but all your other systems in place say otherwise. LShroud, BTC/BTA Gear. Please, we both know this is just another way to make people grind for months, like Shroud was supposed to and like Cannith and Slave Lords are.

[sirgog]

Tier 1 collectibles are the clear chokepoint, as in natural gameplay players do not spend much time at all in levels 1-5.

The obvious solution from a player's point of view is to cheat by coding a bot that can farm these materials for you in safe low level quests. If the obvious solution is to cheat, the system is broken and is not ready for release.

Any content that is so easy that it can be trivially botted should have absolutely no rewards. A level 17 player doesn't get any XP at all from completing Waterworks - why are you creating a new system to push them back into Waterworks again?

The simple solution is to change the level ranges, so that items found in natural gameplay are more in tune with the demand.

I think (base quest level) 1-12 being tier 1, 13-16 tier 2, 17-20 tier 3, 21-24 tier 4, 25-28 tier 5 and 29-32 tier 6 would better reflect actual gameplay patterns. There'll be a slight excess of tier 3 and tier 6 collectables and a slight deficit of tier 1 and 5, but it should be quite manageable - and going and farming tier 5 collectables with your Legendary-ready level 30 character won't be so completely trivial that you fall asleep.

[Qhualor]

I used to run back to the airship after almost every quest in order to re-buff too. And I used to manually re-slot guild augments into items constantly because guild augments expired after a short time unlike our current augments. The old ways are not always the best ways (sometimes they're the worst).

I know that some people used to farm Fragrant Drowshoods for the Stone of Change ritual. The question is, how many of them enjoyed it. The farming that you describe in this quote sounds awful. And following a guide to boring, auto-pilot zooming from collectible node to collectible node to collectible node... sounds awful. It's like the definition of disengaged, brain-dead gameplay.

This quest level-range determined collectible dropping really needs to be eliminated.

I'm not really defending the level range restriction. just saying its not that big of a deal to me. its something that used to be done years ago and I never heard anyone complain about a level 20 jumping into Haverdasher to loot a cabinet. to give another example, I and many other players used to farm the level 5 optional in Big Top for Kronzeks Cruelty at cap as well as many other heroic items that could be made epic. today we have quest resets and you don't have to actually run quests for collectibles. just like the guide I used to use, you can figure out which quests have collectibles closest to the beginning of the entrance and repeat as often as you like. as far as I know, there is no ransack on collectible cabinets, mushrooms, etc.

[patang01]

That is one approach. Another is to trade with other players as it gives players of all levels useful tradeable goods.

This is the same silly way of doing things like the early Crystal cove with some gems only dropping at specific tiers. That was later 'fixed' by being able to downgrade higher end gems to lower. Turbine realized what the problem was then.

I really hope you will realize how backwards this system is and instead of banking on people trading, actually create a system that is natural to how people play. Please learn from your mistakes.

[patang01]

I think this is where you are confused...you are not wasting your time because you are going and getting something you need. There are a variety of needs in the game and if mats to craft are one for you then you have to go get them. Perhaps what you meant to say is that the process isn't as efficient as you'd like or you'd like to be able to multi-task and get mats while achieving something else. That is fine and understandable but at the end of the day your time is not wasted as you are accomplishing something. Just like on an iconic life I have to go run some coin lord and House K favor so I can empty my cache...I'm not accomplishing anything else at that time but it has to be done for me to TR.
I think you should consider "natural process" and apply it more generally. The natural process to get the desired tod ring or +4 tome you wanted back in the day was running 20 tods. The natural process to level is running bravery bonus quests. The natural process to craft will be to purchase or farm for mats when you need them; it doesn't have to be a good or bad thing, but a reality that you have to spend time and effort to acquire what you aspire in the game. I guess we could just whine and ask that all the mats just be given to us or made easy...or taken away all together but there's nothing wrong with some cost for the gear we're going to wear.

Yes, it's a waste. No confusion.

I don't get experience. I don't get items I care to use. I take time out of say the 2-3 hours I might have that day to run content that adds nothing to the progression or development of my character.

In the end of the day it is a complete waste of time in order to get a random chance at a material that might not be the one I care for. if I run content say in a ER I get experience. I get mats, I get a chance for loot I might need or use at that tier and a chance at named items I might not have. All part of the natural progression of that character.

The only thing I benefit from wasting time in lower end content is the random factor of mats. None of the other natural benefits of running within my tier. It is like running off destiny leveling. You might find all kind of excuses for a system that is pragmatically foreign to the basic natural play but in the end what Turbine is asking us to do is that if we want to grind out crafting we will have to do things way outside the natural cycle of our gaming. It's not organic. It's foreign. You can add quotation marks around "natural process" all day long, but there's nothing natural about a high level character between 20-30 running 1-5 level content. It's regressive to the natural cycle of gaming and strictly putting time aside from everything else just for mats.

Ontop of that I generally run with basic buffs such as experience potions. That way I can leveling up more quickly as I ER while doing everything else. That would of course be a complete waste when I'm running for low end mats. Not only am I eating up whatever little time I have to do things I haven't done for years (nor really have an interest in doing) but also wasting stuff I paid for just to get low end materials.

I guess we could just whine and ask that all the mats just be given to us or made easy

This is why I don't like to argue with people who confuse discussions with juvenile insults. There's nothing in anything I wrote earlier that suggest that I want it given to us or made easy. In fact, there's nothing hard about a level 25 character (example) running level 3 content. Nothing hard what so ever. Or are you meaning that the processing of clicking on a 'cultural dispenser' as being hard? That act? It is in fact harder to run content in my level bracket, say EH or EE at or slightly under level of quest and pick up mats.

My suggestion is that if you want to make an argument for or against something don't shoot the messenger. It's always the way of a loser.

[patang01]

Tier 1 collectibles are the clear chokepoint, as in natural gameplay players do not spend much time at all in levels 1-5.

The obvious solution from a player's point of view is to cheat by coding a bot that can farm these materials for you in safe low level quests. If the obvious solution is to cheat, the system is broken and is not ready for release.

Any content that is so easy that it can be trivially botted should have absolutely no rewards. A level 17 player doesn't get any XP at all from completing Waterworks - why are you creating a new system to push them back into Waterworks again?

The simple solution is to change the level ranges, so that items found in natural gameplay are more in tune with the demand.

I think (base quest level) 1-12 being tier 1, 13-16 tier 2, 17-20 tier 3, 21-24 tier 4, 25-28 tier 5 and 29-32 tier 6 would better reflect actual gameplay patterns. There'll be a slight excess of tier 3 and tier 6 collectables and a slight deficit of tier 1 and 5, but it should be quite manageable - and going and farming tier 5 collectables with your Legendary-ready level 30 character won't be so completely trivial that you fall asleep.

Or allow all materials to drop in all content but with a higher chance of lower end material in lower end content and a low chance of lower end material in high end content. You can still keep the dispenser concept for rare material and such, but bags no matter who it drops from should always be able to give any type of material.

Simply the law of drop over time running the stuff you feel most natural to run would give you enough without grinding specific content. And by that time there would be a natural supply of items at a fair price anyways. Picking up materials as a natural part of game play is one thing; some people don't care for it but I always did it, is so different from running low end content specifically just for picking it up.