The Mageblade

[TheBlueFox]

There are a few spellcasters that have surprisingly melee focused trees that I have noticed.

The sorcerer has the Eldritch Knight and the Warlock has the enlightened spirit.

I'm curious in trying one of these out, but I could use a little advice. I think if I was going to try them, I'd start with the Eldritch Knight first. It doesn't seem super complicated, it's mostly toggles for damage on your weapon.

It's pretty much Buff + Tensers transformation + Go ham. Which actually seems kinda silly and fun. I wonder if it's better to go pure, or splash some paladin in there since the capstone for Eldritch knight is kinda... meh. Is it better to go with robes + Enhanced mage armor or Light armor, I don't really recall much light armor that comes with anything good for this kind of character.

Speaking of, what kind of item bonuses am I even looking for? With Tensers I probably won't be casting too much offensive magic, and Robes don't often come with combat bonuses except for Monk robes. The item choices are going to be very strange.

Has anyone tried the Eldritch knight much? Or is the Enlightened spirit just a much better spellsword?

[Kriogen]

...
The sorcerer has the Eldritch Knight and the Warlock has the enlightened spirit.
...

Eldritch Knight tree, on its own, is pretty meh. Spellsword, melee caster does work, but not because of EK. EK does have some use as utility/support tree.

Easier with Wizard then Sorcerer. Reason:
- to do something in melee, you need to spend feats. To do something with magic, you need to spend feats. Thats lots of feats. Wizard gets a nice number of bonus feats. It makes things much, much easier
- there is Harper Agent tree. It alows you to use INT for to-hit, damage and even more damage. Main stat for Sorc is CHA. Main for Wizzy is INT
- theres even a feat called Insightful Reflexes (you use INT for reflex saves). A wizzy can use INT for 3 things: fuel spells, combat, reflex saves

Casting and combat:
- you can't do both at the same time. Can't cast Fireball and swing a sword at the same time. No go. Even worse, theres a nasty delay between swinging a weapon and casting a spell
- the way to bypass this are Damage Over Time spells (DOT). Cast that Ice Storm and then swing that sword while DOT is ticking.
- cool part about DOTs is that for most parts they have no save and cooldown are not that important(they have solid duration). This, in a way, solves Tenser side effects

Race (survivability): any race will do, but Warforged and Drow are a bit better. Reason:
- 'forged can repair themself, get better CON, some nice immunities
- while any race can go Pale Master, Drow get a couple of nice perks: better INT (your main stat), cheap DEX (for TWF), ASF reduction(easier to put on some armor).

Combat style:
- you want "ranged", go Artificer or Ranger. You want melee with some Crowd Control, go Bard
- melee + DOTs
- all tree melee styles will work (2-handers, 2-weapons, single/orb weapon). Annoying: 2-handers need some STR for feats, TWF some DEX, not many Orbs around (especially not at low levels)

Multiclassing: not required. But if you go lets say Wizard 20, then why not just be, you know, a Caster

Enlightened spirit? Those blasts kill stuff fast. If mobs dead, why you'd need a sword?

[unbongwah]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fferent-builds
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-Bladesingers!

[TheBlueFox]

Eldritch Knight tree, on its own, is pretty meh. Spellsword, melee caster does work, but not because of EK. EK does have some use as utility/support tree.

Easier with Wizard then Sorcerer. Reason:
- to do something in melee, you need to spend feats. To do something with magic, you need to spend feats. Thats lots of feats. Wizard gets a nice number of bonus feats. It makes things much, much easier
- there is Harper Agent tree. It alows you to use INT for to-hit, damage and even more damage. Main stat for Sorc is CHA. Main for Wizzy is INT
- theres even a feat called Insightful Reflexes (you use INT for reflex saves). A wizzy can use INT for 3 things: fuel spells, combat, reflex saves

Casting and combat:
- you can't do both at the same time. Can't cast Fireball and swing a sword at the same time. No go. Even worse, theres a nasty delay between swinging a weapon and casting a spell
- the way to bypass this are Damage Over Time spells (DOT). Cast that Ice Storm and then swing that sword while DOT is ticking.
- cool part about DOTs is that for most parts they have no save and cooldown are not that important(they have solid duration). This, in a way, solves Tenser side effects

Race (survivability): any race will do, but Warforged and Drow are a bit better. Reason:
- 'forged can repair themself, get better CON, some nice immunities
- while any race can go Pale Master, Drow get a couple of nice perks: better INT (your main stat), cheap DEX (for TWF), ASF reduction(easier to put on some armor).

Combat style:
- you want "ranged", go Artificer or Ranger. You want melee with some Crowd Control, go Bard
- melee + DOTs
- all tree melee styles will work (2-handers, 2-weapons, single/orb weapon). Annoying: 2-handers need some STR for feats, TWF some DEX, not many Orbs around (especially not at low levels)

Multiclassing: not required. But if you go lets say Wizard 20, then why not just be, you know, a Caster

Enlightened spirit? Those blasts kill stuff fast. If mobs dead, why you'd need a sword?

When I read this I couldn't help but start thinking. Something about it didn't sit right with me. Now I'm not saying anything you've come to tell me is wrong, I just don't believe we're going for the same character here.

An Eldritch Knight is not a melee caster, that's not what it's for.

The Eldritch Knight is a melee fighter that uses spellpower to enhance his attacks or defenses. They memorize spells like Blur/Displacement, Haste, Invisibility, and of course Tense'rs Transformation.

So with that in mind, maybe we can look at the wizard/sorcerer to see which would be better as a EK, I think thats where I wanna start.

I am making assumptions here based not on 3rd life + endgame characters, but rather 1st life, moderately geared individuals, for this is what I will be as I make this character anew. I think that by 3rd life+ this might be a VERY different argument and analysis

STATS

I don't think you need a very high Charisma/Intelligence score to really do well as an eldritch knight, Because spell DCs aren't your main concern, leaving more points for strength and con. The spellpower will affect your toggled elemental spellsword abilities.

So because of this, I believe we can break down this argument to "What does Charisma get me as a sorcerer vs What does Intelligence get me as a wizard" since both will likely invest in Str and Con mostly.

Intelligence gets you spellpoints, spell DCs, Skill points, and the ability to utilize Insightful Reflexes, and combat expertise

Charisma gets you Spellpoints (more of them), DCs, and the ability to utilize Force of Personality.

I want to say that the sorcerer squeaks by ahead in this department, and I'll get to why in a bit.

SAVES

These two classes have identical save progression, so the end result is (theorizing you get a decent items) a decent bonus in your Reflexes or your Will. I don't feel that an investment in INT score could pull Reflexes out of the gutter enough to be reliable, whereas raising a stat that is already high a little higher could be more beneficial. Not to say that Insightful reflexes is bad, I just don't think a wizard with only Medium intelligence will be able to utilize it to make it worth it more than a Sorcerer with Force of Personality.

I think that the damage that comes from reflex based sources can be mitigated or avoided with other means, such as elemental resistances or absorption. Will save sources can be countered with spell resistance often and failing to save usually involves loss of control over your character.

The only exception to this is traps. Traps are often reflex based, but I feel that their DCs are usually set high, meaning even with a high reflex score, you'll need a high score PLUS items to reliably get through them.

So when it comes to Will Vs Reflex, what is deadlier? Well, for every hold person spell, you're probably going to be attacked by 5-10 fireballs, so Reflex will come up more than will, but I'm inclined to believe that will is the deadlier save to fail.

This one, I can't really give to one or the other, both are rather important.

SKILLS

When it comes to Skills, there really isn't much that both classes offer. Both classes get the same Skill points for their intelligence investment, 2+intmod. Both classes have Spellcraft and Concentration, and the other class skills are rather negligible. Cross class skills aren't super useful either, because you can always use a scroll for jump, featherfall for tumble, detect secret doors, and other arcane spells. I don't know what cross class skills might be useful to use aside from Use Magic Device, which even the sorcerer probably won't have alot of points to invest into and with only a moderate charisma score can't utilize fully.

In this case, I want to say that the sorcerer only slightly comes out on top due to the ability to get a slightly higher native UMD score, which aside from Concentration and Spellcraft is likely to be the only other skill raised.

SPELLPOINTS

Sorcerers get loads more SP and more SP from items naturally, but this isn't necessarily true without the large charisma investment they SHOULD be having. Factoring in items that grant +CHA and +INT though, the sorcerer will find it much easier to widen the gap. The sorcerer will get more SP from +SP items as well, which is not negligible at the higher end of these items. So the sorcerer will find it easier to get more SP for the same investment, he can do what he does for longer.

The wizard does get some spells as Spell Like abilities, which makes them cost nearly no SP, as well as an easy to reach enhancement to get more SP, but I think the gap can still be in the Sorcerer's favor without heavy investment in things that make you less of an Eldritch Knight.

I have to give spellpoints to the sorcerer

SPELLS

The wizard however gets higher level spells a level early, which probably doesn't amount to TOO much over the course of a life, but can mean access to haste and displacement earlier, and the wizard can change up his Non-Buff spells, and has more spell slots to fill.

The sorcerer will have more spellPOWER though. Those trees have low hanging fruit to purely increase your damage, and if you want to specialize in a particular element it makes it even more potent.

So the wizard gets better spell efficiency. He can adapt easier. While the Sorcerer's spells CAN hit harder

Spell selection and spell versatility definitely go to the wizard. But spellpower (which adds damage to your Spellblade toggles) goes to the sorcerer, this one could be a tossup.

Even without the +INT/CHA investment you can make your other spells decent enough that they don't fail all the time. This isn't EPIC ELITE level 25+ quest material yet.

FEATS

Wizard wins, end of story.

The sorcerer doesn't get extra feats as they level, so the wizard can get anything the sorcerer does and more. Even though metamagic won't be super useful, It's hard to argue against having Extend spell for your buffs, or Heighten for your lower level crowd control options, or even Quicken spell to cast in melee. This does make the wizard a very powerful option.

But what will an Eldrich knight need? They already get Martial weapon proficiency through enhancements, but even though they get Shield proficiency I do not believe that grants them the ability to use the Shield Mastery line of feats, which is arguably the best line for an Eldritch knight due to the support of its enhancements. I think you still need to take the Shield Proficiency General feat.

So that's Shield proficiency+ Mastery line = 3 feats
Improved Critical
Power attack
Cleave (Eldritch Cleave is on a 15 second timer, not good enough)
Improved cleave perhaps?

That's all 7 from natural levelups there. The wizard can have all this, PLUS metamagic and the mental toughness boosts

So, what do you guys think?

I think i'm still leaning toward Sorcerer over Wizard for the EK.

[unbongwah]

S&B DPS without Vanguard or Swashbuckler to boost it is poor. EK melee DPS on pure wiz or sorc is poor. Combining the two is a recipe for bottom-of-the-DPS-ladder performance, particularly if you're deliberately eschewing any DPS spells to supplement melee.

[TheBlueFox]

I isn't as though I'm going to be entirely avoiding all damaging spells, I mean any magic caster that CAN cast firewall would be foolish not to, even if it will be resisted.

The EK trees aren't super heavy into damage, but the spellblade toggle, Eldritch cleave, Eldritch tempest, and bonuses to crit and doublestrike don't exactly make it the worst of options. It's no Kensai or swashbuckler, yeah, but it's not abhorrent.

It's certainly not meant for top tier DPS. I'm still trying to figure out a good mix of melee and spell to make it versatile, without being a jack of NO trades, master of garbage.

[unbongwah]

The EK tree was a poor PrE when it first came out with U19, IMO, and hasn't been buffed since, making it even worse by comparison to all the buffage of the last two years. Its biggest shortcomings:

• Spellsword imbues don't scale with Spellpower; only the damage from EK Cleave / Tempest does. Compare to AA imbues or ES Spiritual Retribution.
• No crit range or multiplier bonuses; no Melee / Ranged Power bonuses; max +8% doublestrike.
• No option for using INT or CHA to dmg, which limits those options to Swashbuckler, PDK, and Harper.
• The SP costs and cooldowns on EK Cleave / Tempest are too high, IMO; they need to be either more powerful or more spammable (or both).

The only things I like about EK are the defensive perks, in particular Arcane Barrier: both a handy temp buff and a visual reminder you need to heal (or repair). But if you're after viable melee DPS, you need to combine it with one of the more front-loaded melee classes / PrEs, like Kensei (see CThru's Arcane Warrior thread) or Swashbuckler. Pal 15 / wiz 5 also works fine (see my Iconic Builds thread); basically trading the extra DPS of pure pally for wiz buffs & defensive goodies from EK.

[TheBlueFox]

Darn! I missed that line where it's only your eldritch strike that gets the +damage from spellpower... Grr that annoys me.

so it does, on average, 1 point of damage per character level, boosted by spellpower. So if you were to have 100 spellpower, that's just double character level extra damage twice (once for force and once for the spellblade toggle) so quad character level. Looking at it that way, it's not a terrible attack, but you're right having it on a 15 second cooldown for 10 sp hurts...alot.

I guess a pure sorc EK isn't gonna be great...

I suppose a Bard/Sorc could work, both key off charisma, and the bard can get Charisma to damage and dex to attack if I'm not entirely mistaken. I could supplement 5 or so sorc levels to a bard to give it the elemental affinity of an eldritch knight, and some of the enhancements...but at that point why not just go full bard swashbuckler. Blarg.

The other option is to take mostly sorc levels, splash a little fighter in there for feats/hp/and kensai. I think that might fit the "Theme" a little more. The higher spell levels don't really have too many great buffs and the highest level spell that I believe I'd enjoy casting on this kind of character is 7th level Waves of Exhaustion. so maybe a 14 sorc/6 fighter for the crit damage multiplier at level 6 kensai and 1 level 7 spell (waves of exhaustion)

I think the trouble i'm having is trying to justify pure sorc, when the class isn't really meant to perform a mainly melee with Spell offhand kind of role.

[Kriogen]

...
I think the trouble i'm having is trying to justify pure sorc, when the class isn't really meant to perform a mainly melee with Spell offhand kind of role...

Nope. That would be Bard or Artificer. Or even Druid.

[TheBlueFox]

Well, I'm gonna start making the character tonight. I think I'm going to start with Sorcerer1, but then level up fighter to 6, and go back to sorcerer.

The alternative would be to go sorcerer until I get displacement, THEN start leveling up fighter, which might be a better way to go to feel more like an eldritch knight, as opposed to a knight with 1st level spells.

Come to think of it, I'm gonna go 1 sorc, 1 fighter (for proficiencies, hardiness, feats, and access to the early kensai tree) then to 6 sorc, then to 6 fighter, then rest sorc.

That way I get access to the enhancements I need early from both trees, but get to my spells quicker.

[TheBlueFox]

So I've made the character, and... wow.

I mean wow...

It is... BAD XD

Okay, it's not as bad as I thought it would be, it's actually just a really really low armored fighter, with immunity to magic missiles, blur, haste, and a wonky cleave attack.

I've got 1 fighter and 6 sorcerer, I wanted to rush and get Haste before I started getting some extra fighter things.

My problem is that the signature ability of the eldritch knight, the special cleave, is kind of lackluster. The blade imbue is pretty nice, as it lets me boost the power of ANY weapon I hold, couple that with haste, power attack, and cleave and I've got a surprising melee damage output on a sorcerer.

the REAL issue I'm having is that I'm unsure what spells to take.

I've got the staple buffs in mind, Haste, Displacement, Blur, Shield, Mage Armor, But I'm wondering what I can do offensively with my SP.

I'm probably planning on taking quicken spell, getting Hypnotic Pattern, and chaining that with something else that targets will. Or Heighten and web which is always a staple combo.

Depending on how my spell DCs match up with my melee output I might use my free heart of wood to re-allocate more into Charisma, i'm finding that I don't have much trouble HITTING things, but I don't have any offensive spells, so I don't know how much Charisma I'll need.

And honestly, I don't want to pull too much away from sorcerer, I may actually re-make the character as a pure sorc straight at level 7 to try out the capstone for EK (which is so enticingly bad as well XD)