Needs a major ingredient exchange change

[legendkilleroll]

I usually don't have 2-3 hour blocks of time to play DDO except on weekends, which is the situation of a lot of other players too, so quests like this limit how much a lot of players can play them.

The issue, I repeat, is not that the quests themselves are long, but that the ingredient drops are too low for the time it takes to get those ingredients. Long quests are fine, although they eventually go the way of slavers/ToEE/Haunted Halls and get run very infrequently, but long quests with low drop rates are exceptionally boring and time-consuming if you're just running them to get items.

What about people who do have more time? why should content be made for the one's with less time?

ToEE mushroom drop rates were fine on Elite, just that people wanted to stroll thru casual

All i can say is if the grind is too much for some people then dont run it, plenty of other quests to do and alot of previous updates gave you what you are seeking, cant have every update made for this type of player.

[dunklezhan]

What about people who do have more time? why should content be made for the one's with less time?

ToEE mushroom drop rates were fine on Elite, just that people wanted to stroll thru casual

All i can say is if the grind is too much for some people then dont run it, plenty of other quests to do and alot of previous updates gave you what you are seeking, cant have every update made for this type of player.

Yep. I simply don't *play* TOEE.

[BigErkyKid]

The reason why people use the word "grind" is because it's a BAD connotation.

A game should be fun, not grinding at a millstone.

Particularly when a game is as old as DDO, with dwindling players, limited development resources, and loot that gets outclassed every update, making something a grind is essentially the least intelligent thing to do for the game.

What's good is a balance of reward, investment, and FUN.

QFT

But clearly the game is NOT designed with you in mind, rather with the 2nd kind of player.

[RobbinB]

I am not going to run these quests 45 hours to get an item. Everyone is saying that they are basically just easy, and yet we are expected to run those quests back to back for so long to get an item.

No. If it goes as is, I won't do it, same as I didn't do the now outlived ToEE, or I am not doing LGS for more than a few items.

I just don't trust the devs with power creep, so anything that requires above the 20 runs mark with certainty is ignored.

A proposal: make it way harder, still have several quests spread out (so if you fail to complete you won't bash in the screen) and increase vastly drop rates.

Personally, I won't bother otherwise. I cannot imagine how people who got several ToEE sets are feeling right now, and I certainly don't want to join the ranks of the burnt by power creep.

Thanks for the detailed answer!!

TOEE power creep could be easily adjusted for by adding an additional tier to the weapon crafting (fully upraded TOEE weapon should be equivalent to a LGS item in the 1.5-2.5 tier range; sadly they are currently in the 0-1 tier range). They could also add some sort of extremely rare token/mushroom/crafting recipe/whatever in slavers that actually allows for additional upgrade of some TOEE items to legendary (or simply improved) versions.

[Blastyswa]

What about people who do have more time? why should content be made for the one's with less time?

ToEE mushroom drop rates were fine on Elite, just that people wanted to stroll thru casual

All i can say is if the grind is too much for some people then dont run it, plenty of other quests to do and alot of previous updates gave you what you are seeking, cant have every update made for this type of player.

Well, here's a few different situations:
1. Design quest to allow casual players to make items in time. Players with more time to put in the game (Especially the 80 hours a week people) will complete items for 1 toon within the first week of the content being released. If they don't have alts, they no longer need to run the content, and just get back to TRing. Players with more time and alts complete items for 10-20 alts within a few months, just in time for the next update. Casual players complete content for one toon within a month, and can gear out several alts over time.

2. Design quest to make 1-toon wonder's with 80 hours a week take 1.5 months to make a full set (About what current drops are at). 1-toon wonder make's their full set, and then TRs because that's how it goes. 80 hours a week players with alts complete full set for 1-2 toons unless some type of exploit happens at the start of the release; if a buggy exploit is released to live, these players get into the same boat as 1-toon wonder's, otherwise they get set's for 1-2 characters. Casual players make 1 item set in 6 months, and are basically just excluded from the content as far as crafting goes.

In situation 1, the casual players are able to play the content and have fun with it, using the new gear on capped toons; one-toon wonder's are also able to, but stop playing the content after the first week, and get back to TRing, while that gear sits in their TR cache for all levels but 28-30. Many alt players face a bit of a longer haul to gear out all their toons, but since you're getting an item every few days to a week, it doesn't feel like as bad of a grind as spending 80 hours per item.

In situation 2, the casual players are able to play the content and have fun with it, but can't use crafted gear, making their capped toons inferior to 80 hour a week people's toons; one-toon wonder's make one full set for their main character, and then stop playing the content after the first month and a half, getting back to TRing while that gear sits in TR cache for all levels but 28-30. Many alt players have no chance whatsoever of making all the gear they want, and are further discouraged because every 80 hours spent in those quests equals one new item for one character.

I personally don't have major issues with ToEE mushroom drop rates because ToEE is zergable; I can solo ToEE EE part 1 in 20 minutes, or ToEE EE part 2 all nodes in an hour, and at those rates it takes <10 hours in the quest to make a ToEE set, which I consider reasonable. The issue is that, even though I was full zerging with invis and DA (but not harried), these quests take well over 1-2 hours on any difficulty. One-toon wonder players tend to be the one's that want every possible bonus on one character (Let it be said that I have a triple triple completionist guy myself, so I get where they're coming from) so designing end-game gear for them isn't the best design anyway; they acquire the items and then go back to not using them in heroics and low epics. Releasing racial reincarnation, more mysterious remnant like tomes, or more quests with item's like PLIS/Jibbers/Clickies is the way to go with those players, not gear that they don't even use most of the time.

[Cleanincubus]

This is complete? Wiki says 5 total attributes... prefix, suffix, extra 1, extra 2 and slot. Did it get changed or am I missing something?

Looks like I am missing the Extra 2 slot.

[legendkilleroll]

Well, here's a few different situations...

Well not every player who fits into this "casual" or "80 hour week" will be same, alot of different factors, like the guy who plays one character, doesnt want to TR, in this case he gets a week of content

A casual players character should be inferior to someone who puts that amount of time in.

Just cant please everyone, i dont know what the best solution is, imo tho i wouldnt create content in a MMO with casuals being number one priority

[dunklezhan]

Well not every player who fits into this "casual" or "80 hour week" will be same, alot of different factors, like the guy who plays one character, doesnt want to TR, in this case he gets a week of content

A casual players character should be inferior to someone who puts that amount of time in.

Just cant please everyone, i dont know what the best solution is, imo tho i wouldnt create content in a MMO with casuals being number one priority

QFT - and I'm a casual player.

[Vooduspyce]

Looks like I am missing the Extra 2 slot.

ty for the response

[Blastyswa]

Well not every player who fits into this "casual" or "80 hour week" will be same, alot of different factors, like the guy who plays one character, doesnt want to TR, in this case he gets a week of content

A casual players character should be inferior to someone who puts that amount of time in.

Just cant please everyone, i dont know what the best solution is, imo tho i wouldnt create content in a MMO with casuals being number one priority

That was my point. If the drop rates are designed to be barely achievable by the 80 hours a week one character guy, then people who play like that will be able to make one set, while anyone with alts or less play time (Or, heaven forbid, both) will be excluded. If drop rates are designed to be achievable by people with less time or more alts, then those players will more realistically be able to take part in the content as well as the one character guy who doesn't TR, although he'll be finished a lot quicker. So you either exclude a lot of people, making one type of player (Mindless grinder) the only one able to use the loot, or you include everyone and the mindless grinder gets finished quickly.

Personally, I wouldn't want these quests to be designed to have to be ran as much as something like ToEE/LShroud anyway, because I find them mindless and repetitive. After running through the chain once on Lammania (Actually, 2/3rds of the chain) I was incredibly bored, and don't plan to play this quest a single time unless I need items. I'd prefer for an actual endgame for the 80 hours a week players to include more randomization/diversity, especially in progression methods and mobs, as well as the environment (This entire chain felt like "Yep, I'm running through cities and caverns, and will continue doing so for 3 hours.").

I don't think casual players should be the number one priority, but I think they shouldn't be completely excluded from the content either, and I think the content should be more interesting if it's supposed to be an endgame for the 80 hours a week crowd. At the very least, the tiers of the loot could have costs adjusted so that everyone could easily make 3-4 of the parts of the item, but the last few take more ingredients, although that's not my preferred solution.