How do you measure success?

[GoldyGopher]

Years ago I was at a Turbine / DDO sponsored gathering enjoying an adult beverage talking with a Senior Associate Producer about forthcoming Module 8. It was one of those conversations that sticks with you. I was assured that the updated version of crafting in Module 8 would make crafting from Module 6 obsolete and that Turbine was already looking at ways to revamp the systems in Module 6 to the new standard. The systems used in Module 8 supported Dragontouched Crafting which was supposed to replace Green Steel Crafting as the new standard. Even 8 years later I still chuckle at the notion.
The humor continued later that evening when Developer snorted his adult beverage through his nose when I started asking more detailed questions about Dragontouched Crafting. Seems he did not share his bosses believe that the simplifying the systems of green steel crafting into what was being used in Dragontouched was going to sit well with the player base.


I am very much reminded of that story as I consider the changes to Cannith Crafting.

Simplifying systems does not automatically make for a better system, and I am not sure if simplifying Cannith Crafting were worth the effort.

I have been using Cannith Crafting since it's inception in Update 9, while there are a few players that have crafted more than me since that time, I doubt the number is very large. As we get ready to move into the new system I figure I will have just under 200,000 Cannith Essences after I convert my old essences over. My gargantune Collectable bag is over flowing with common collectables and in the case of many uncommons the numbers are measured in hundreds, while rares might be closer to dozens.
The reality is in a matter of hours after launch of Update 32 I may not be capped but I will clearly be over level 320 and making Cannith Crafted gear to fill many holes in multiple characters inventory, caused by the New Random Loot.

For me that aspect will clearly be a success.

Talking to my Guildies in the three guilds I am apart of offers a very different perspective on the reworked Cannith Crafting.
Most player have enough old essences to make a hundreds or a few thousand new Cannith Essences and when it comes to collectables more than a few players were satisfied with their small or medium collectable bags worth.
When their experience rolls over levels like 50, 60 and maybe if they are lucky 100 are in their future.
These players are more likely to hand over all their essences and collectable to me and ask that I level high enough to create unbound shards for them rather than go through the work, grind, to level up their own characters.

I am not sure I would call that success.

Further as I look at the system and required levels of various of items that may be of use to players with no crafting experience or levels in the old system I am not sure they can collectively craft enough to make it worth their while. The problem isn't the crafting but collecting the essences and collectables required to craft. I figure to reach a useful level we are talking 2500 essences, when players are collecting 10 to 20 per quest we are talking 125 to 250 quests. Even running everything on Normal that's almost an entire heroic life of a character.
I find it difficult to accept that many non-crafters are suddenly going to be converted when they start realizing how much work needs to be done.

I clearly don't think that is anywhere near a success.

The use of collectables and the amount of collectables is probably the most troubling for many players.
I understand most of the reasoning including a potential byproduct of slowing the game down for players. How many power TR run players get every collectable in a quest? I know on my Triple Completionest project it is one of the few characters I play that doesn't grab all the collectables, it slows down the run too much. Now suddenly those three mobs and the pile of rubble off in the corner I always skip will become more mandatory to get. A few seconds a quest, a few minutes per level, an hour may be two per life?

I know many players are concerned about the quantity of uncommon and rare collectables in the recipes for bound and unbound shards. On the other hand if they make the recipes less expensive by even a couple of collectables the power creep will be substantial. Currently with the New Random Loot I have difficulty finding items to fit into every slot for every build. There are too many poorly matched pairs on items. My success rate I think is about 1 item in 60 or maybe 1 in 75 that I keep. Suddenly if I have the power to craft everything I need that is equal value but now slot absolutely everything precisely where I need it, imagine the power of all your characters, and the worthlessness of the New Random Loot other than a source of Cannith Essences.

I suspect however that Treasure Bags dropped by Mobs upon death will become like Mysterious Remnants and get a short three minute timer before they disappear. That being the case I hope Turbine creats a mechanism much like Fragments of Token of the twelve where any character who are within the circle map of the mob on death automatically collect the treasure bag, same for Mysterious Remenants as well.

You can make similar arguments on Flexible Shards.

I think that from a players standpoint this is not successful as we would like, but from a developer standpoint this reigning in of crafting is a good thing.


Players that were hard core into crafting purchased Gargantuan Bags (usually multiple), extra Crafting Storage and sometime even invested into second accounts, not to mention others that dropped thousands of Astral Shards on large enough guild ships to support their crafting habit. Suddenly the loss of two dozen different items required in crafting makes several of those purchase questionable.

I am sure there will be a few gripes about that, but is it a good thing.

There are a number of things that success cannot be measured yet, even though I have some suspicions.

The simplification of the crafting system from three schools to one is something I find pretty frustrating. On the surface when we were asked it seemed like a no brainer, however as I look at the new system I am not so sure. Does changing the minimum level of the basic items (usually by a factor of 3) push potential new crafters out of the system. If a strength shard was level 30 in Divine opposed to 100 in Cannith would it be easier for those players to achieve?

Will the Auction House and to some extent the Shard Exchange suddenly be emptier of items that are of questionable value? Will the lucky finds of New Random Loot become even more expensive? Will some entrepreneur start crafting tons of unbound shards at low levels?

Will players with high level crafters make the gap between the haves and have nots even greater? Will more players suddenly become have nots?


There are more questions that need answering, even though the Devs may not be in position to answer.
Will systems be put in place to help revitalize Epic Gear Crafting, Raid Loot, and Epic Raid Loot? Will I be able to raise the minimum level on that gear to 30? Imagine a Level 30 Sword of Shadow or Gyroscopic Boots or ....

How is this system going to interact with other crafting systems? Like Alchemical Crafting, Stone of Change and Incredible Potential?

Can this system be used to improve named items?

What happens to Eberron, Khyber, and Siberys Dragonshards?

Now that collectables are in use for something how about gems?


In the end I think parts of these changes are a minor step in the right direction and I think there is potential in other changes to improve the game, but I cannot say the system as a whole is a success.

[slarden]

Success Criteria for me:

- Power level is Acceptable (not too high and not too low) and items are worth making - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate random loot - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate named items - CHECKMARK
- Challenge level and grind is appropriate for the hardcore players- CHECKMARK (unbound crafting)
- Casual and new players can make adequate progress - HALF A CHECK - seems collectible cost is problematic for many. I like the proposal to lower cost on bta prefix/suffix only to address this
- Has the features of the old system - HALF A CHECK - but the reason why make total sense to me so I accept it
- The system is fun, interesting and appealing to me - CHECKMARK
- Bound to account options for gear - CHECKMARK - big improvement over old system in that regard. I love that I can covert my old btc crafted gear to bta.

Overall I consider the new system a success.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm iffy about the claims that collectible costs are insurmountable or even problematic. The items don't bind to character any more, so there's no need to make 15 different items with basically the same effects (one claim). And most of the recipes do use very common ingredients. It's not all Silver Flame Hymnals and Fragrant Drowshoods, particularly with lower level/common recipes.

And I think that the rarity of collectibles is actually vastly inflated by most people *because they are not tremendously desirable right now so people just don't pick them up*. I've been making more of an effort to actually pick up collectibles after emptying my bags into the shared bank and I've gotten a LOT of them in a VERY SHORT time. Demand creates its own supply. Collectibles nodes do not ransack. I predict that within a month we'll be SWIMMING in collectibles to the point that the bottom will have dropped out of the market. Even "rare" ones.

Heck, even with the new collectibles and using only the random boxes I was able to craft quite a number of ultra-rare items on Lammania.

People are making assumptions and panicking. For instance, I'm pretty impressed by the number of people who have apparently discovered that the existing crafting system is the be-all, end-all of their gear set and they can't live without it given that the general forum consensus for years was that crafting was basically worthless and only hardcore nutjobs would bother with it at all.

As for how do you measure success? In terms of your GOALS. You can't measure it in the absence of a goal, and "make everyone happy" is a nonsensical goal for anyone because people want contradictory things. I mean, seriously, you cannot have a crafting system that simultaneously:

Doesn't invalidate random lootgen BUT ALSO is awesome enough that EVERYONE is going to be foaming at the mouth to grind to max crafting level
Doesn't invalidate named loot BUT ALSO lets you put pretty much anything in any slot
Has costs and economic tradeoffs BUT ALSO is cheap enough for the most casual of casual players to make everything they want

The devs have to pick one (or a place on a continuum). The fact that their choice is not your choice doesn't make it unsuccessful as a whole.

The things that would make it really unsuccessful from my perspective would be:

Lack of labeling that makes it a headache to figure out what goes where
having to turn in essences in batches so small that the crafting hall is basically lagged out FOREVER
Doesn't scale into epics
doesn't work sensibly with augments
costs so much to get to max level that even uber-crafters are struggling with it months later
costs so little to get to max level that even casual players are totting around toons at 350 within a month
breaks the economy
Completely invalidates random loot again
Can't make DR-breakers so the weapons are basically pointless

And I think they've hit those goals solidly thus far.

[GoldyGopher]

Success Criteria for me:

- Power level is Acceptable (not too high and not too low) and items are worth making - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate random loot - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate named items - CHECKMARK
- Challenge level and grind is appropriate for the hardcore players- CHECKMARK (unbound crafting)
- Casual and new players can make adequate progress - HALF A CHECK - seems collectible cost is problematic for many. I like the proposal to lower cost on bta prefix/suffix only to address this
- Has the features of the old system - HALF A CHECK - but the reason why make total sense to me so I accept it
- The system is fun, interesting and appealing to me - CHECKMARK
- Bound to account options for gear - CHECKMARK - big improvement over old system in that regard. I love that I can covert my old btc crafted gear to bta.

Overall I consider the new system a success.

I don't think anyone can truly say the system is a success at the moment. You can say it has potential and could be successful, but you cannot say for certain because you don't know what the law of unintended consequences has in store.

One of the key discussions, at least from the player base, is the desire to reduce the cost of Cannith Crafting in terms of the collectables used. IF the Devs cave and reduce the cost by virtually amount they will shift the utility of Cannith Craft and greatly reduce the validity of random loot to just being source of Cannith Essences. If that happens two of your checkmarks go away.

The same can be said about the features of the old system, if the Devs add in more functionality than they invalidate random loot and over power crafted loot.

Players who do not already have a stockpile of essences to convert or crafting levels will be way behind when this goes live. The question is can they make up ground and use the system adequately to supplement their characters gear as they level. Nothing I have seen convinces me that is the case.

You and several other players list BTA as a win or even a big win, to me its a whatever. I don't have the bank space to stockpile large amounts of gear, I would rather have BTC gear with an upgrade path for shards.

[Hobgoblin]

with a ruler?

[Faltout]

Success Criteria for me:

- Power level is Acceptable (not too high and not too low) and items are worth making - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate random loot - CHECKMARK
- It doesn't invalidate named items - CHECKMARK
- Challenge level and grind is appropriate for the hardcore players- CHECKMARK (unbound crafting)
- Casual and new players can make adequate progress - HALF A CHECK - seems collectible cost is problematic for many. I like the proposal to lower cost on bta prefix/suffix only to address this
- Has the features of the old system - HALF A CHECK - but the reason why make total sense to me so I accept it
- The system is fun, interesting and appealing to me - CHECKMARK
- Bound to account options for gear - CHECKMARK - big improvement over old system in that regard. I love that I can covert my old btc crafted gear to bta.

Overall I consider the new system a success.

Perfect: A measuring system Let's see...
- Power level is too high combined with the power to circumvent the luck factor of getting all the effects you want. - FAIL
- It invalidates random loot. Only loot of level 37+ is relevant now. - FAIL
- It doesn't invalidate named items. At least not the new ones. - SUCCESS
- Challenge level and grind is inappropriate as far as I've heard. Currently I could level up to 140 to all schools with minimal amounts of essences (in the tens of thousands) and now I hear 100k essences are average... - FAIL
- Casual and new players will not make any progress and instead request shards from maxed crafters. - FAIL
- Collectable cost is high making each item more expensive. - SUCCESS
- Many effects from the old system remain. - SUCCESS
- Flexible shards are gone. - FAIL
- Bound to account shards - SUCCESS
- Challenge gear and runearms are about to either lose craftability or their own effects. - FAIL

- The system is fun, interesting and appealing to me? Based on the above, has more fails than successes and for stuff that matters like game balance and grind. Soooo... - FAIL

[slarden]

I don't think anyone can truly say the system is a success at the moment. You can say it has potential and could be successful, but you cannot say for certain because you don't know what the law of unintended consequences has in store.

Several people do based on all the comments

One of the key discussions, at least from the player base, is the desire to reduce the cost of Cannith Crafting in terms of the collectables used. IF the Devs cave and reduce the cost by virtually amount they will shift the utility of Cannith Craft and greatly reduce the validity of random loot to just being source of Cannith Essences. If that happens two of your checkmarks go away.

I don't care if they do or don't lower the costs. I will budget my collectables accordingly, but I don't think bta will have any major impact. For one thing most people I know mostly use just random loot that drops for them and things they can get very cheaply from the AH. For those premium items, random loot is still better. I will be using 4 pieces of random loot and 3 pieces of crafted gear on my main 4 characters at cap.

Also the collectible cost is really high so I will end up using more random loot than crafted gear while leveling.

The same can be said about the features of the old system, if the Devs add in more functionality than they invalidate random loot and over power crafted loot.

The old system allowed you to make better items at a relatively lower cost (compared to the new system)( and it never invalidated random loot. For example I made my silver great sword +5 holy burst of Greater Evil Outsider bane with a medium guild slot and I never saw anything like that drop. I did have a +3 silver holy evil outsider bane great axe drop for me and I posted for the max on the AH and it sold in under an hour and this was well after cannith crafting came out. Not everyone is going to craft regardless of what system the devs devise so random loot will always have a place.

Players who do not already have a stockpile of essences to convert or crafting levels will be way behind when this goes live. The question is can they make up ground and use the system adequately to supplement their characters gear as they level. Nothing I have seen convinces me that is the case.

It's like anything else in this game. People that haven't earned any LGS mats are behind people that have earned those mats. You have to run content to make progress in this game. All of us that have alot of essences started at 0 so there is no unfairness there.

Fortunately there is no real need to convince you of anything, so it's fine if you've decided you will be firm on your position no matter what.

As for making level gear, we all have to budget our collectibles. All of us are starting with 0 of the new collectibles which are used for the bonus abilities so everyone is on equal footing there.

You and several other players list BTA as a win or even a big win, to me its a whatever. I don't have the bank space to stockpile large amounts of gear, I would rather have BTC gear with an upgrade path for shards.

I do because I can store 100 BTA items in a bank character on my account and an additional 80 if I get the favor (2 hours or so max). It's going to be a long time before I can make that many crafted items and we have up to 44 character slots available I think? That is better than the old system where I made items for each of my characters so it saves mats, time and overall account storage since I can share items.

[TedSandyman]

I'm iffy about the claims that collectible costs are insurmountable or even problematic. The items don't bind to character any more, so there's no need to make 15 different items with basically the same effects (one claim). And most of the recipes do use very common ingredients. It's not all Silver Flame Hymnals and Fragrant Drowshoods, particularly with lower level/common recipes.

And I think that the rarity of collectibles is actually vastly inflated by most people *because they are not tremendously desirable right now so people just don't pick them up*. I've been making more of an effort to actually pick up collectibles after emptying my bags into the shared bank and I've gotten a LOT of them in a VERY SHORT time. Demand creates its own supply. Collectibles nodes do not ransack. I predict that within a month we'll be SWIMMING in collectibles to the point that the bottom will have dropped out of the market. Even "rare" ones.

The above is true if you don't craft very much. But there are a few of us "high volume" crafters who love the current system and use it as part of our play style and will NOT be able to continue playing this game as we have in the past. I have spent years collecting every collectible I can. And I have many of them. But if I craft as I have done for each of my past 10 lives I will run out of most ingredients in one life. And all of my lives from there on will be spent grinding or not crafting.

So, I understand that you and turbine look upon the costs as not very prohibitive. But for a few of us, this expense will ruin the game. And that is fine, I am probably in a minority because I do craft a lot, but players like me were not taken into account with this new update and are being mostly ignored or put down as "vastly inflated". Those of us who use the system the most are being ignored the most. We keep track of how many items we have. We do a happy dance when we find a drows_hood in a mushroom. And we look at 15 or 5 more rare items and think in terms of how fast those will be gone.

In general, I think those of us who do craft a lot are some of the more patient players. We have taken the time to get good at crafting and learn the intricacies of the system. We do take the time to pick up collectibles. We did take the time to level up our abilities. We do deconstruct instead of just selling to a vendor. We use the crafting system a lot. We like the game for what it is and don't spend all of our time leveling as fast as possible. We do this because we like playing the game in a slow steady manner. We are the people who tend to play dungeons without zerging and go for ransack bonuses and finish optionals. Not that that is better than people who want to zerg, it's just different. I personally view crafting like a puzzle. I run back and forth from my TR bank and the auction house and the crafting station, trying to make everything fit. Us steady, patient people who like to play the game, however, are the ones most set back by the new crafting.

The chief complaint I hear about the current system is that it takes up too much time. It takes too long to collect items. It takes too much time do deconstruct. It takes too much time to level. Those people don't care at all about the new system. And the new system isn't going to do anything to make them like it. Some people may make an item or two (or 10) through a life. Those people may like the new system. It is certainly more simple and adds effects that were not previously possible, like deadly and insightful abilities. Those are really nice and cool.

But for the people who craft a lot, the expense IS a big issue. We are not just complaining because we are cheap. I personally will have to change how I play this game. And if I am no longer enjoying the game I will quit. I will give the new crafting a chance. But what I am seeing on Lamannia isn't making me too hopeful.

So, the people who don't craft now, will continue to not craft. The people who don't craft much now will continue to not craft much. And the people who craft a lot, the people who really like crafting, will be forced to quit using the system as they have in the past. The people hurt most are the people who actually like to craft. And we are the people Turbine is ignoring the most.

I have stuck with this game through all of the changes over the years. I have heard people from time to time say this new update (whichever one was current) will make them quit the game. But I have found that if you are patient and give it a chance, the new changes were almost always for the better. The developers have done a good job over the years and I do love this game and think it has grown better. I know every change that has come along has had people who did not or would not accept the changes and throw up their hands in a rage and quit. I don't want to be one of those people and rage isn't what I am feeling, but a sense of sadness and inevitability. I will quit this game when I am no longer enjoying the game, and this update has the most potential to make that happen.

My wish for this game and the new crafting in particular, would be for Turbine to make it easy enough and inexpensive enough that everyone thought it was useful and fun and made a big deal out of it. I don't want it to be forced on people, but I would like it to be something people want to use to make their experience better if they want it.

I wish they had gone for less of a grind instead of more, but they didn't. This update will not make more people craft. It will very much, make less people craft. It may start out with a slight uptick as people give it a try, but before long the numbers will be less as people realize the expense and time are even greater burdens than before. My opinion therefore in keeping with the thread is that the new crafting will not be a success. But I guess time will tell.

[Alaryth_KD]

The above is true if you don't craft very much. But there are a few of us "high volume" crafters who love the current system and use it as part of our play style and will NOT be able to continue playing this game as we have in the past. I have spent years collecting every collectible I can. And I have many of them. But if I craft as I have done for each of my past 10 lives I will run out of most ingredients in one life. And all of my lives from there on will be spent grinding or not crafting.

...

I wish they had gone for less of a grind instead of more, but they didn't. This update will not make more people craft. It will very much, make less people craft. It may start out with a slight uptick as people give it a try, but before long the numbers will be less as people realize the expense and time are even greater burdens than before. My opinion therefore in keeping with the thread is that the new crafting will not be a success. But I guess time will tell.

As a kindred high-volume crafter, this very well put and exactly what I'm thinking and feeling about the new system. For the past 3 or 4 years, each life I craft all of what I wear up through level 9, except armor and weapons, and some of what I wear up through level 20/21. I rather enjoyed that. It's a bummer that will no longer be a part of the game. On the positive side, I have a feeling I'll be able to pull a load of shards for my collectables and essences and will have a load more time for my reading.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

For TedSandyman (and other like-minded crafters in DDO), I agree that this new CC system isn't just about what does/does not technically work and such, it's about a macro issue - will new CC fundamentally change the social aspects of Cannith Crafting? And we have been sounding off with a resounding "Yes" and what astounds me is that a game that categorizes itself as Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) would move toward a Design Change in the game to reduce the Social aspects of a core system in the game -- thus making that aspect less Multiplayer!

Hey Turbine, how's that "Massively" prefix in MMO going to look after new CC is implemented and you make the "Multiplayer" into a little m?

So, DDO is on its way to being a new form of MmO.

In fact, we may need to make a new term called "marginally multiplayer Online" - an mmO.

[Andu_Indorin]

For TedSandyman (and other like-minded crafters in DDO), I agree that this new CC system isn't just about what does/does not technically work and such, it's about a macro issue - will new CC fundamentally change the social aspects of Cannith Crafting? And we have been sounding off with a resounding "Yes" and what astounds me is that a game that categorizes itself as Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) would move toward a Design Change in the game to reduce the Social aspects of a core system in the game -- thus making that aspect less Multiplayer!

Hey Turbine, how's that "Massively" prefix in MMO going to look after new CC is implemented and you make the "Multiplayer" into a little m?

So, DDO is on its way to being a new form of MmO.

In fact, we may need to make a new term called "marginally multiplayer Online" - an mmO.

I am not following you on this. What, precisely, is the impact of the new Cannith Crafting on the social aspect of the game? A specific case in point might help me understand the issue. ...

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I am not following you on this. What, precisely, is the impact of the new Cannith Crafting on the social aspect of the game? A specific case in point might help me understand the issue. ...

Guild Crafters spend hours in game going over options and crafting items, sometimes partially finished to keep wield levels low, and to explain how to raise up the gear -- to guild members in need. This is part of the interaction in game that may not happen as often going forward in new CC. This new crafting system looks destined to pigeon-hole crafters into their own solo perch from which they'll take care of themselves more so than needs of others, for lack of resources (likely bottleneck). Crafting level requirements to produce said Unbound gear could also suffer.

As reminder, there are many of us that have been burning up our crafting components to get ZERO experience out of the deal, because we were utility crafters in Guilds with a high volume of output requirements for crafting tasks that had no experience value, no possibility of crafting progression. Crafters like me aren't sitting on a mound of essences to convert into the new system - same will be true of many guild crafters. If you happened to horde resources the last 5+ years you are in a lucky position for this new system, but that's a very select group (some of whom are overly vocal here in forums about how great this system is, since they're in a position to take advantage of it).

Do you think this system will inspire guild members to go grind for collectables for the crafting tasks? Not hardly. I don't see it happening. There's a difference between social interaction to theorize and discuss options for character builds, vs grinding in the game for components. This new system poses a grind, not more thought, not more social interaction - just more grind, more tasks. When a game becomes a task, that task makes the game look like less of a game, and frankly the game isn't a game anymore - it's work. Can you expect Guild Crafters to put their guild members to work for them? Not happening.

PnP was no different. If you called a D&D gaming night but told everyone that the first hour would be spent washing dishes and cleaning up the house, how many people would have come over for the gaming session that night? Not a perfect analogy, but I hope you start to see my point - there is a Social issue with the new CC at play that is going under radar.

[changelingamuck]

I'm iffy about the claims that collectible costs are insurmountable or even problematic. The items don't bind to character any more, so there's no need to make 15 different items with basically the same effects (one claim).

This assumes that it's not a problem for people to be passing items back-and-forth through the shared bank.

I, personally, couldn't care less that the crafted items will be bound-to-account instead of bound-to-character. I play a lot of different alts and I've always crafted new gear for each of them at each level up. I'm not at all interested in spending all my free time logging into one character, putting items into the shared bank, logging out, logging into another character, taking the items out of the bank, then realizing that I forgot to put one item from the other character into the shared bank, then logging out and back in on the first character, etc. etc. etc. Not to mention trying to remember which characters have which items at any given moment and then needing to log in and out of a dozen characters. "Do you have the item? Nope. Okay... how about you? Do YOU have the item? Nope. Okay, just 7 more characters to go..." Remember, we don't have an account-wide SEARCH feature for our banks and inventories (and really, we're absolutely not going to get one since there's absolutely no code existing in the game that's even remotely similar to that to use as a foundation).

Who wants to deal with all that? The collectable costs for bound items should be lowered. Even if they aren't, I'm not playing the pass-around game with dozens and dozens of different crafted items of all minimum levels. If it's too expensive to craft items for my own characters' individual use, then I just wouldn't craft--which would be a shame since I spent a half decade leveling up my crafting...

[icekinslayer]

Perfect: A measuring system Let's see...
- Power level is too high combined with the power to circumvent the luck factor of getting all the effects you want. - FAIL
- It invalidates random loot. Only loot of level 37+ is relevant now. - FAIL
- It doesn't invalidate named items. At least not the new ones. - SUCCESS
- Challenge level and grind is inappropriate as far as I've heard. Currently I could level up to 140 to all schools with minimal amounts of essences (in the tens of thousands) and now I hear 100k essences are average... - FAIL
- Casual and new players will not make any progress and instead request shards from maxed crafters. - FAIL
- Collectable cost is high making each item more expensive. - SUCCESS
- Many effects from the old system remain. - SUCCESS
- Flexible shards are gone. - FAIL
- Bound to account shards - SUCCESS
- Challenge gear and runearms are about to either lose craftability or their own effects. - FAIL

- The system is fun, interesting and appealing to me? Based on the above, has more fails than successes and for stuff that matters like game balance and grind. Soooo... - FAIL

So, secondhand and thirdhand information, and no personal experience with the new system...you have no interest in even trying it out? Just write it off before trying it? what a joke...

[Free2Pay]

Which design do you think will be deemed successful :
1) Doing less with more;
2) Doing more with less

My guts tell me it has to go with doing more (the ability to craft more recipes/more flexibility/stronger effects/more slots/more drop rate) with less (less complexity/less grind/less essences/less collectibles/less time to deconstruct/less time to stay in crafting halls/less RNG).

[Gremmlynn]

The above is true if you don't craft very much. But there are a few of us "high volume" crafters who love the current system and use it as part of our play style and will NOT be able to continue playing this game as we have in the past. I have spent years collecting every collectible I can. And I have many of them. But if I craft as I have done for each of my past 10 lives I will run out of most ingredients in one life. And all of my lives from there on will be spent grinding or not crafting.

So, I understand that you and turbine look upon the costs as not very prohibitive. But for a few of us, this expense will ruin the game. And that is fine, I am probably in a minority because I do craft a lot, but players like me were not taken into account with this new update and are being mostly ignored or put down as "vastly inflated". Those of us who use the system the most are being ignored the most. We keep track of how many items we have. We do a happy dance when we find a drows_hood in a mushroom. And we look at 15 or 5 more rare items and think in terms of how fast those will be gone.

In general, I think those of us who do craft a lot are some of the more patient players. We have taken the time to get good at crafting and learn the intricacies of the system. We do take the time to pick up collectibles. We did take the time to level up our abilities. We do deconstruct instead of just selling to a vendor. We use the crafting system a lot. We like the game for what it is and don't spend all of our time leveling as fast as possible. We do this because we like playing the game in a slow steady manner. We are the people who tend to play dungeons without zerging and go for ransack bonuses and finish optionals. Not that that is better than people who want to zerg, it's just different. I personally view crafting like a puzzle. I run back and forth from my TR bank and the auction house and the crafting station, trying to make everything fit. Us steady, patient people who like to play the game, however, are the ones most set back by the new crafting.

The chief complaint I hear about the current system is that it takes up too much time. It takes too long to collect items. It takes too much time do deconstruct. It takes too much time to level. Those people don't care at all about the new system. And the new system isn't going to do anything to make them like it. Some people may make an item or two (or 10) through a life. Those people may like the new system. It is certainly more simple and adds effects that were not previously possible, like deadly and insightful abilities. Those are really nice and cool.

But for the people who craft a lot, the expense IS a big issue. We are not just complaining because we are cheap. I personally will have to change how I play this game. And if I am no longer enjoying the game I will quit. I will give the new crafting a chance. But what I am seeing on Lamannia isn't making me too hopeful.

So, the people who don't craft now, will continue to not craft. The people who don't craft much now will continue to not craft much. And the people who craft a lot, the people who really like crafting, will be forced to quit using the system as they have in the past. The people hurt most are the people who actually like to craft. And we are the people Turbine is ignoring the most.

I have stuck with this game through all of the changes over the years. I have heard people from time to time say this new update (whichever one was current) will make them quit the game. But I have found that if you are patient and give it a chance, the new changes were almost always for the better. The developers have done a good job over the years and I do love this game and think it has grown better. I know every change that has come along has had people who did not or would not accept the changes and throw up their hands in a rage and quit. I don't want to be one of those people and rage isn't what I am feeling, but a sense of sadness and inevitability. I will quit this game when I am no longer enjoying the game, and this update has the most potential to make that happen.

My wish for this game and the new crafting in particular, would be for Turbine to make it easy enough and inexpensive enough that everyone thought it was useful and fun and made a big deal out of it. I don't want it to be forced on people, but I would like it to be something people want to use to make their experience better if they want it.

I wish they had gone for less of a grind instead of more, but they didn't. This update will not make more people craft. It will very much, make less people craft. It may start out with a slight uptick as people give it a try, but before long the numbers will be less as people realize the expense and time are even greater burdens than before. My opinion therefore in keeping with the thread is that the new crafting will not be a success. But I guess time will tell.

Actually, I think that the fact that it is possible to play that way with the current system is the reason some of the changes in the new system were made. It seems to me, that the devs tried to made crafted items expensive enough to make that players would have to question if it was really necessary to upgrade this or that yet, or whether the random item they found that mostly fits were sufficient. rather than recrafting every slot as soon as their level allowed an upgrade to the item as the current system is so cheap that it simply doesn't make sense to not be maxed out, at least as much as the system allows.

[Gremmlynn]

Guild Crafters spend hours in game going over options and crafting items, sometimes partially finished to keep wield levels low, and to explain how to raise up the gear -- to guild members in need. This is part of the interaction in game that may not happen as often going forward in new CC. This new crafting system looks destined to pigeon-hole crafters into their own solo perch from which they'll take care of themselves more so than needs of others, for lack of resources (likely bottleneck). Crafting level requirements to produce said Unbound gear could also suffer.

As reminder, there are many of us that have been burning up our crafting components to get ZERO experience out of the deal, because we were utility crafters in Guilds with a high volume of output requirements for crafting tasks that had no experience value, no possibility of crafting progression. Crafters like me aren't sitting on a mound of essences to convert into the new system - same will be true of many guild crafters. If you happened to horde resources the last 5+ years you are in a lucky position for this new system, but that's a very select group (some of whom are overly vocal here in forums about how great this system is, since they're in a position to take advantage of it).

Do you think this system will inspire guild members to go grind for collectables for the crafting tasks? Not hardly. I don't see it happening. There's a difference between social interaction to theorize and discuss options for character builds, vs grinding in the game for components. This new system poses a grind, not more thought, not more social interaction - just more grind, more tasks. When a game becomes a task, that task makes the game look like less of a game, and frankly the game isn't a game anymore - it's work. Can you expect Guild Crafters to put their guild members to work for them? Not happening.

PnP was no different. If you called a D&D gaming night but told everyone that the first hour would be spent washing dishes and cleaning up the house, how many people would have come over for the gaming session that night? Not a perfect analogy, but I hope you start to see my point - there is a Social issue with the new CC at play that is going under radar.

I don't see the problem. If players aren't willing to kick in some mats, they can settle for ran gen gear.

Most "guild crafters" in my experience, didn't even require players to provide the mats, but pretty much expected members to provide mats to help level them as well.

Yes this system is grindy, it's designed to be grindy. It fixes what could be perceived as a fundamental problem with the current system, the grind is limited to the leveling process. once that's done, it's pretty much all the at level gear one needs on demand. The fact that you make gear for, seemingly, anyone who asks for free sort of points that out.

[Gremmlynn]

Which design do you think will be deemed successful :
1) Doing less with more;
2) Doing more with less

My guts tell me it has to go with doing more (the ability to craft more recipes/more flexibility/stronger effects/more slots/more drop rate) with less (less complexity/less grind/less essences/less collectibles/less time to deconstruct/less time to stay in crafting halls/less RNG).

Following that line of thought. Why not just publish the admin codes for creating gear from nothing? After that we can just add the codes for auto-leveling and be able to play the whole game in minutes.

Gearing up and dealing with what gear we have available is part of playing the game.