Cannith Crafting - Runearms and Challenge Gear

[Blastyswa]

Now that everyone has had a chance to look at the basics of the system, it is time to talk about the outliers. And to note, existing items are intended to stay how they are when these changes go live.

Challenge Gear:

The current plan is to simply have all those items be named gear that can't be crafted on. With everything we've done over the past year to bring a new consistency to Random Loot, Crafted Loot and Named Loot, having a side system that has several effects AND can have new scaling effects crafted on in addition, is simply too powerful.

This change would switch any effects that have scaling versions, into those versions, and leave any more unique effects as they are. It would also result in all tier 3 items having a colored augment slot.

I think Challenge Gear should continue to be able to be crafted onto, but have a cap on the power level you can add. At the moment challenge gear is OK, but not a massive improvement over using random gen loot to level, except in the case of builds that use all the different types of elemental spells and the like. Having Challenge Gear receive a big upgrade with the Cannith update would make running challenges for players/toons who don't already have those items relevant again; if Challenge gear were changed to just have a new augment slot, Cannith Challenges would remain as dead or become even more dead than they already are, with them probably only be run for guild renown pots.
In addition, please do not switch any effects that have scaling versions into those versions. A big advantage of Challenge gear at the moment is that the spell lore on them hasn't been ruined yet by the idea that spell lore amounts need to be single digit in low levels, and that's about the only thing keeping the gear relevant (aside from blurry on the bracers at low level). Honestly, all lore/fortification effects on random gen should be modified from the current system that makes them next to useless in low levels, because those aren't effects that NEED to be lower in low levels.

Runearms:

A similar issue exists with Runearms. Having 3 effects on an item which can then have 3 powerful crafted effects added is too much.

The most straightforward solution would appear to be that the charge tier, the spell itself, the rune arm imbue, the ML, and any very unique effects (such as Coronauch) would stay. The rest of the effects would be removed when prepping for crafting and then you could craft on 2 effects (or 3 using the Mark of House Cannith). The list of effects for Runearms is still being worked on.


Thoughts, comments? And as always, all plans are subject to change for any numerous and unforeseen reasons.

Runearms can only be used on builds with at least 2 artificer levels anyways. The type of artificers that play with runearms I would say are probably behind on power anyways (Most arti's I know dual-wield for casting or use a shield) so the cannith crafting changes could be considered part of an arti buff. If it's still a big issue for builds like 18/2 rogue/artificer to gain big buffs from cannith crafting, make the maximum ML of crafting effects for runearms equal to 4+arti levels+epic levels. This would mean that an 18/2 rogue/artificer could only craft level 6 shards on a runearm at level 20, level 16 shards at level 30; that's still under half the potential levels. This also would mean that pure arti's can craft level 34 shards, which is the max in the new cannith crafting system, so the more artificer levels the stronger effects can be added to runearms.

I'd say for runearms just copy and paste the list of effects from trinket's more or less.

[Ziindarax]

I think Challenge Gear should continue to be able to be crafted onto, but have a cap on the power level you can add. At the moment challenge gear is OK, but not a massive improvement over using random gen loot to level, except in the case of builds that use all the different types of elemental spells and the like. Having Challenge Gear receive a big upgrade with the Cannith update would make running challenges for players/toons who don't already have those items relevant again; if Challenge gear were changed to just have a new augment slot, Cannith Challenges would remain as dead or become even more dead than they already are, with them probably only be run for guild renown pots.
In addition, please do not switch any effects that have scaling versions into those versions. A big advantage of Challenge gear at the moment is that the spell lore on them hasn't been ruined yet by the idea that spell lore amounts need to be single digit in low levels, and that's about the only thing keeping the gear relevant (aside from blurry on the bracers at low level). Honestly, all lore/fortification effects on random gen should be modified from the current system that makes them next to useless in low levels, because those aren't effects that NEED to be lower in low levels.


Runearms can only be used on builds with at least 2 artificer levels anyways. The type of artificers that play with runearms I would say are probably behind on power anyways (Most arti's I know dual-wield for casting or use a shield) so the cannith crafting changes could be considered part of an arti buff. If it's still a big issue for builds like 18/2 rogue/artificer to gain big buffs from cannith crafting, make the maximum ML of crafting effects for runearms equal to 4+arti levels+epic levels. This would mean that an 18/2 rogue/artificer could only craft level 6 shards on a runearm at level 20, level 16 shards at level 30; that's still under half the potential levels. This also would mean that pure arti's can craft level 34 shards, which is the max in the new cannith crafting system, so the more artificer levels the stronger effects can be added to runearms.

I'd say for runearms just copy and paste the list of effects from trinket's more or less.

I was thinking the same for Rune arms. TBH, Artificers are still the weakest class in the game - I'd love to see them get a buff, especially through Cannith crafting.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Runearms:

A similar issue exists with Runearms. Having 3 effects on an item which can then have 3 powerful crafted effects added is too much.

"...too much" - According to who or what standard? Runearms have had a specific Craftable amount in them, and that resulted in effects in the old system capable of being crafted on, although crafting on a wield level reduction was the most typical crafting task for Rune Arms.

The better approach would be to resolve "how many effects" are maximum for Rune Arms, scalable for wield levels/Crafting points available. Perhaps the lowest level 1 Rune Arms get restricted to one effect, at some wield level 2 effects are allowed, and at another threshold a 3rd effect is allowed. Considering that Rune Arms are "Named Items" this isn't off the mark, as Named Items frequently have 4 or more effects on them.

Now, another consideration is toward the nerfing of Artificer as a Premium Class. Consider:
- The crafting level boost means less proportionally now, as the +10 levels factors less of an increase, when crafting level maximum increases as it is (the Arti crafting boost should be scaled upward, not left as-is).
- Rune Arms are essentially being nerfed, restricted from Crafting.

So, exactly how is Artificer being supported as a "Premium Class" with all these ingenious decisions?

[Ahwaric]

I strongly dislike the proposed change regarding challenge gear. I think there should be retained at least a small crafting capacity. For the following reasons:

1. Runearms are an artificer thing, and we are talking about CANNITH challenge gear. So for flavour, if not anything else
2. Cannith challenges gear is not that strong anyway compared to new named items and new random loot (compare dodge or electrical spellpower on bracers of the wind with what can drop as random loot at the same level). Being able to craft BtC version was a nice touch (flavour!), but the resulting items are still far from being overpowered.

I understand that with 3 effects and different method of setting the ML, the crafted challenge gear might be too strong (but still nowhere close to Pansophic Circlet - now, this is an overpowered item if I ever saw one). The proposal of allowing one effect, craftable only with the Mark of House Cannith, is a good one IMHO. It limits the potential power of the items, while still keeping some flexibility (which new crafting system will severely limit in general) and flavour. It would require Cannith favor to be able to craft on cannith gear - a good fit I think.
Please, do not remove something just because it would require some more work to balance (and a good resolution was already proposed).

EDIT: I have misread NoWorries proposal regarding runearrms, needed to change my opinion. The proposed change is ok, too. Might even add more flexibility - though adding one property on top of the dafault one using mark of cannith would be ok, too.

[NabeGewell]

A developer stating that artificer is 'already' too op?



But seriously, don't you dare remove 'transform kinetic energy', 'lightning strike' cannith crafting option or other somewhat unique effects that used to make that flavor playstyle interesting. Crafting recently got updated and you're saying the crafter class is getting less options in a game where the amount of options is what made the it appealing for most players? These dev troll posts aren't funny anymore.

[changelingamuck]

A developer stating that artificer is 'already' too op?



But seriously, don't you dare remove 'transform kinetic energy', 'lightning strike' cannith crafting option or other somewhat unique effects that used to make that flavor playstyle interesting. Crafting recently got updated and you're saying the crafter class is getting less options in a game where the amount of options is what made the it appealing for most players? These dev troll posts aren't funny anymore.

Did you reply to the wrong thread? Because there's only one post made by a developer in this thread and it's the first post. And that post doesn't make any claim like 'artificer is already too OP'.

And it specifically says that unique effects on rune arms will remain on rune arms AND that the proposal includes being able to do Cannith crafting on them (more effects than we can currently craft onto them). You're basically saying, "Don't you dare do the things that you specifically said that you're not going to do."

"Getting less options"? Three Cannith craftable effects being possible on all rune arms is more than the current ONE possible on rune arms with the "craftable" feature.

"Dev troll posts". You're totally lashing out at a post that didn't even happen...

[Eddexp]

Please dont forget about other itens that can have craftable...one example are all the ones given on "Storm horns" chain(quest and end reward) including the lv 6 anomalies. That itens can be descontructed and keep the named,craftable+5 and arg slot and one good ideia for that ones is give a extra slot and let then be the one to fill the place of old school 2 arg slot itens.

since yea...there are some old school itens with 2 arg slots biside a lot of nameds who can be crafted biside the canith and runearms.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Please dont forget about other itens that can have craftable...one example are all the ones given on "Storm horns" chain(quest and end reward) including the lv 6 anomalies. That itens can be descontructed and keep the named,craftable+5 and arg slot and one good ideia for that ones is give a extra slot and let then be the one to fill the place of old school 2 arg slot itens.

since yea...there are some old school itens with 2 arg slots biside a lot of nameds who can be crafted biside the canith and runearms.

Hmm....

how about replacing the BtA items in chains with 2 slot items? I like this much better. Keep them BtA if you wish....

http://ddowiki.com/page/Cannith_Crafting/BtA_base_items

Quest chain reward lists

• The Lost Seekers - anything, notably: a mithral shield (in place of Interogator's Shield) and/or rare metal weapon (in place of Pastemaker) can appear on this list
• Catacombs - anything, includes belt and helmet/hat
• The Seal of Shan-To-Kor - anything, includes belt and helmet/hat
• The Sharn Syndicate - any weapon
• Tangleroot Gorge - Belts, Helms, Gloves
• Phiarlan Carnival
• Sentinels of Stormreach - every third reward list only
• Delera's Tomb
• Ruins of Threnal
• Reign of Madness - always a ring included

Single quest/raid reward lists

• The Chronoscope - weapons, clothing and jewelry
• The Sharn Syndicate quests are the easiest place to get items, since each quest is rather short and easy to farm, and gives a choice of several BTA items, rather than having to go through a whole chain - at the end of which you'll likely want to get a named item. However, you won't get a belt or helmet/hat from this chain.
  
  • Stand Your Ground - cloaks, gloves, rings, and necklaces
  • Dirty Laundry - armor and shields
  • The Stormreaver Fresco - none (all unbound)
  • The Bookbinder Rescue - boots, bracers, and goggles
  • Repossession - armor and shields
  
  
• The Red Fens quests - any except trinket
  
  • Fathom the Depths - armor, shield, weapon, ring, boots, necklace
  • The Claw of Vulkoor - armor, shield, weapon, ring, gloves, necklace (unbound helms appear on the list as well)
  • The Last Stand - armor, shield, weapon, helm, ring, necklace, goggles
  • Into the Deep - ring, gloves, belt, helm, bracers, armor

[QuantumFX]

You know, on the challenge loot, I’m going to modify my position: I think you guys should simplify the **** things.

Give us basic create, upgrade (From a lower level version) and add a colorless augment slot recipes. (This means all the Tier 2, Tier 3 nonsense will be removed.) Scale all the scalable effects to the ML of the item, and add an effect at each new ML point.

Don’t forget to eliminate the BTC statuses and remove the divide between the epic and heroic version of the ingredients.

I'll use the Spare Hand as an example:

Level 3 Version:
- Minimum Level: 3
- Riposte
- Insightful Combat Mastery (Scaled to level 3)
- Disable Device (Scaled to level 3)
- Open Lock (Scaled to level 3)

Level 7 Version:
- Minimum Level: 7
- Riposte
- Insightful Combat Mastery (Scaled to level 7)
- Disable Device (Scaled to level 7)
- Open Lock (Scaled to level 7)
- Insightful Doublestrike (Scaled to level 7)

Level 11 Version:
- Minimum Level: 11
- Riposte
- Insightful Combat Mastery (Scaled to level 11)
- Disable Device (Scaled to level 11)
- Open Lock (Scaled to level 11)
- Insightful Doublestrike (Scaled to level 11)
- Staggering Blow

Level 15 Version:
- Minimum Level: 15
- Riposte
- Insightful Combat Mastery (Scaled to level 15)
- Disable Device (Scaled to level 15)
- Open Lock (Scaled to level 15)
- Insightful Doublestrike (Scaled to level 15)
- Staggering Blow
- Insightful Use Magic Device (Scaled to level 15)

Level 20 Version:
- Minimum Level: 20
- Riposte
- Insightful Combat Mastery (Scaled to level 20)
- Disable Device (Scaled to level 20)
- Open Lock (Scaled to level 20)
- Insightful Doublestrike (Scaled to level 20)
- Staggering Blow
- Insightful Use Magic Device (Scaled to level 20)
- Blue Augment Slot

Special Recipe:
- Adds colorless Augment Slot
- Can be added to any version

[gravisrs]

Aww, challenges are already dead in the water, now you adding concrete boots for it...

Make the effort worth it, or this will be yet another abandoned part of the game

[Andrash]

Now that everyone has had a chance to look at the basics of the system, it is time to talk about the outliers. And to note, existing items are intended to stay how they are when these changes go live.

Challenge Gear:

The current plan is to simply have all those items be named gear that can't be crafted on. With everything we've done over the past year to bring a new consistency to Random Loot, Crafted Loot and Named Loot, having a side system that has several effects AND can have new scaling effects crafted on in addition, is simply too powerful.

This change would switch any effects that have scaling versions, into those versions, and leave any more unique effects as they are. It would also result in all tier 3 items having a colored augment slot.


Runearms:

A similar issue exists with Runearms. Having 3 effects on an item which can then have 3 powerful crafted effects added is too much.

The most straightforward solution would appear to be that the charge tier, the spell itself, the rune arm imbue, the ML, and any very unique effects (such as Coronauch) would stay. The rest of the effects would be removed when prepping for crafting and then you could craft on 2 effects (or 3 using the Mark of House Cannith). The list of effects for Runearms is still being worked on.


Thoughts, comments? And as always, all plans are subject to change for any numerous and unforeseen reasons.

I WOULD prefer this (even if seems somewhat complicated):

That still sounds like decreasing the rune arms min lvl will no longer be an option. Even though with current craft UIs, it is possible to use the same materials for DIFFERENT outcome.

I would prefer a scenario like this with 2 options:

You can put a rune arm in the craft-machine with a mark of cannith and choose between:
1, Either have masterful effect on the rune arm, which would EXCLUDE further crafting unless you disjunct the rune arm
2, OR you can disjunct the rune arm and add 2 effects to it, but that means using a mark of cannith first- adding the classic mark of cannith effect, which WOULD then exclude masterul effect.

This way its a win-win: instead of 3 effects, the max would be 2, but people could also have their rune arm ml decreased, albeit at the cost of the rune arm becoming UNCRAFTABLE (unless disjuncted again).

It would be possible to swap between the 2 cases, aka you can un-masterful the rune arm later to have it crafted, or you can remove the crafted effects and have it masterfuled again.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

This whole discussion about Rune Arms isn't useful to the majority of Artificer players out there, until we get a very simple laydown of "Before and After" views of current Rune Arm, with what it looks like After.

You start to show this, in detail and in contrast, and then you'll finally get the player community to give their honest feedback about this Runearm concept you're contemplating.

[lain5246]

Now that everyone has had a chance to look at the basics of the system, it is time to talk about the outliers. And to note, existing items are intended to stay how they are when these changes go live.

Challenge Gear:

The current plan is to simply have all those items be named gear that can't be crafted on. With everything we've done over the past year to bring a new consistency to Random Loot, Crafted Loot and Named Loot, having a side system that has several effects AND can have new scaling effects crafted on in addition, is simply too powerful.

This change would switch any effects that have scaling versions, into those versions, and leave any more unique effects as they are. It would also result in all tier 3 items having a colored augment slot.


Runearms:

A similar issue exists with Runearms. Having 3 effects on an item which can then have 3 powerful crafted effects added is too much.

The most straightforward solution would appear to be that the charge tier, the spell itself, the rune arm imbue, the ML, and any very unique effects (such as Coronauch) would stay. The rest of the effects would be removed when prepping for crafting and then you could craft on 2 effects (or 3 using the Mark of House Cannith). The list of effects for Runearms is still being worked on.


Thoughts, comments? And as always, all plans are subject to change for any numerous and unforeseen reasons.

free my runearms from this dismal existence of near perma tr cashe, in fact to keep things inline with your current policies i recommend that the ability to use crossbows be a arti feat so that while using runearms as a non arti class you can only use one-handed weapons. and i have president for this being allowed. look at orbs, they can be used by any class at the cost of a feat that originally could only be taken by casters. look at mad lute and Divine Vengeance, as a half-elf i can use both, the mad lute has class absolutely required and Divine Vengeance requires paladin lvs to get its better effects.

[UurlockYgmeov]

This whole discussion about Rune Arms isn't useful to the majority of Artificer players out there, until we get a very simple laydown of "Before and After" views of current Rune Arm, with what it looks like After.

You start to show this, in detail and in contrast, and then you'll finally get the player community to give their honest feedback about this Runearm concept you're contemplating.

I was able to do SOME work with a runearm on Lamannia this last weekend. I have already posted the following on ddowiki.com .

• cleans in Cannith Decon machine
• Didn't remove the MCI??? is this WAI? but MCI not affecting ML
• Used device workstation to exchange for new runearm, then cleansed - borked
• Used device workstation to exchange for another new version, accepted in device workstation, but no recipes

As it is now on live:


As it displayed on Lamannia last weekend (preview build 2)


As you can see - prefix and suffix slot showed up - and supposedly one can add extra slot as well.

For this - I'd probably slot in Fire Lore, Insightful Combustion and Combustion.

[QuantumFX]

Did you disjunct any Epic rune arms? I have a feeling people with 2 or more levels of Artificer are going to be saddened by a lack of Cannith support for level 20+ rune arms.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Did you disjunct any Epic rune arms? I have a feeling people with 2 or more levels of Artificer are going to be saddened by a lack of Cannith support for level 20+ rune arms.

No I ran out of time, and don't think there are any 'craftable' 20+ runearms... Lucid Dreams is 19 and that I believe is the highest level craftable runearm (maybe one from a raid??)

ml:19 Toven's Hammer
ml:19 Animus
ml:19 Lucid Dreams


I just also wonder if they will fix the +6 Int bug on Titan's Fist while they are doing this.

[Andrash]

No I ran out of time, and don't think there are any 'craftable' 20+ runearms... Lucid Dreams is 19 and that I believe is the highest level craftable runearm (maybe one from a raid??)

ml:19 Toven's Hammer
ml:19 Animus
ml:19 Lucid Dreams


I just also wonder if they will fix the +6 Int bug on Titan's Fist while they are doing this.

Dream, dream, dream...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

EDIT: On a sidenote: NoWorries stated that the lvl of the rune arm will determine the effect you can put on it. So do not expect combustion 60 and insightful bomustion +40 with fire lore 15%...

I will craft the 15% lore gear(ring, armor, weapon, necklace, whatever with masterful) b4 the 'update' kicks in. As for combustion effects... look on AH for non-weapon spell power boosts.

[elvesunited]

Dream, dream, dream...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8

EDIT: On a sidenote: NoWorries stated that the lvl of the rune arm will determine the effect you can put on it. So do not expect combustion 60 and insightful bomustion +40 with fire lore 15%...

I will craft the 15% lore gear(ring, armor, weapon, necklace, whatever with masterful) b4 the 'update' kicks in. As for combustion effects... look on AH for non-weapon spell power boosts.

Well My lucid Dreams has Kinetic lore 15% crafted on it.

If minimum level indicates the crafting level of the rune arm. If I were to obtain a second Lucid Dreams and use the new crafting on it:

minimum level : 19

Impulse Lore: Max scale 23 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 15%
Spellpower(type specific): Max scale 159 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 100
Spellcraft skill : max scale 22 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 14

or are my assumptions wrong?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Well My lucid Dreams has Kinetic lore 15% crafted on it.

If minimum level indicates the crafting level of the rune arm. If I were to obtain a second Lucid Dreams and use the new crafting on it:

minimum level : 19

Impulse Lore: Max scale 23 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 15%
Spellpower(type specific): Max scale 159 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 100
Spellcraft skill : max scale 22 * 19 / 30 -> roughly 14

or are my assumptions wrong?

sounds about right. IIRC AFAIK YMMV

[Cantor]

Challenge Gear:
You really need to do a complete pass on the old named loot to make them something other than 99% useless. But, in lieu of crafting slots, I think I could live with standard augment slots.

Pretty much how I see it too. They are so far behind it doesn't really matter how the ccup affects it. Would be nice to make T3 bta though.

Challenges need a full pass with level increase (items and quests) and total item adjustment (not redesign, just adjustment of effect scaling). Not likely, but I think that's where it sits.

I think part of it is that it's not just X cannith items, it's 5timesX cannith items for the different ML versions. But the opportunity is here to just make them scale using new cc factors and cut it to X items plus scaling, also making it easy to add ML 24/28 versions.