How is this an improvement?

[Wizza]

If you don't need to figure anything out for yourself it becomes less engaging.

Again, "anything" is different from "everything". I'm fine with some secret bonus being secret but not being able to absolutely know what effects you are going to craft is awful.

And I don't see how reading the wiki is engaging.

[Axeyu]

Again, "anything" is different from "everything". I'm fine with some secret bonus being secret but not being able to absolutely know what effects you are going to craft is awful.

And I don't see how reading the wiki is engaging.

I don't disagree that its possible to come up with another alternative. But whats beeing asked for here is to have everything know so you don't have to engage your brain at all when crafting, and that is what I oppose. I prefer the current way.

Some things you will just have to learn. It's a good thing, whether you see it or not.

[Wizza]

Snip

Ill agree to disagree that reading a wiki is engaging and interesting. Have a good day

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I can only speak for myself but these are the reasons that I will boost to ~Lvl300.

The limiting factor for my crafting will be collectables not essence. I will want Epic crafted items more than Heroic ones. I won't have enough collectables to make them for TRs as well. Heroic item crafting costs that same ammount of collectables as epic ones. Essence is easy to get. I can level CC on essence alone. Therefor I will blow essence to max level. Create epic items first. Then work my way down in levels as I get more collectables. In another year or two I might even consider going back to crafting for others...

I bolded that last statement just to iterate a point, that you (and others) would probably admit, that this new CC does pose challenges (and risk) to the Social dynamics in crafting (CC specifically). This is one of many aspects of crafting that is apparently being overlooked in both the Design of new CC and the objective criticism from those testing (previewing) new CC.

[dunklezhan]

@NoWorries

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

To be fair True Seeing doesn't hurt all that much even at low levels, most players (myself included) have Detect Secret Door googles (or similar) and Blur/Displacement don't really show up until much later on, other effects like Persuassion and Metalline though I do agree could probably use a ML requirement, I would suggest just taking the levels from live as they are and call it a day :/

Stoner81.

This, especially bolded part (and TS isn't that powerful now, but CC was the only place you could still get real detect secret doors, not the lamesauce version that got nerfed a couple of years ago. TS now is what DSD pretty much used to be - I just want the effect, I don't care what you call it).

And Level 10 for persuasion is maybe taking things a bit far, lol, but then I think you knew that when you suggested it, and just wanted me to spit coffee on my keyboard!

Mission accomplished, sir.

[Rykka]

I bolded that last statement just to iterate a point, that you (and others) would probably admit, that this new CC does pose challenges (and risk) to the Social dynamics in crafting (CC specifically). This is one of many aspects of crafting that is apparently being overlooked in both the Design of new CC and the objective criticism from those testing (previewing) new CC.

I wouldn't argue with that at all. Being able to craft epic stuff, on it's own, means I'll have less resources to be generous with for a while. But it only took me a few minutes on Lamma to see that my laissez faire attitude about grabbing bags and clicking on every mushroom over that last couple of years, is going to impact things much more. Those days are over, of course.

Now, if someone proposes passing the collectables needed to make something, I'll be fine with that. But freebies are off the table.

[Memnir]

[TedSandyman]

When I was personally speaking [Advice Channel] to NoWorries on Saturday live in Lamannia, I raised the issue about the Low Level Bound items at around Level 50 were fairly costly in Collectables since there was no scaling in Collectable amounts.

He didn't seem to consider that much of an issue and basically because of so called: "More powerful items you could potentially make". I presume he didn't fully understand where I was coming from but I understand why he won't reduce Collectable numbers needed for lower Crafting Levels.

So the devs are pretty much ignoring everyone who says it is too expensive.

[Vellrad]

So the devs are pretty much ignoring everyone who says it is too expensive.

Turbine is getting lessons at GW it seems.

[TedSandyman]

The new system tends to make items that are weaker and less flexible than the old system that are much more expensive.

Turbine is betting on making money from the sell of ingredients in the DDO store but what is really going to happen is that the few people who do craft a lot are not going to be able to craft much anymore.

[Stoner81]

And Level 10 for persuasion is maybe taking things a bit far, lol, but then I think you knew that when you suggested it, and just wanted me to spit coffee on my keyboard!

Mission accomplished, sir.

In my defence I never said specifically level 10 for Persuasion, I suggested to use "the current levels from live" whatever they might be. As somebody pointed out Persuasion can be had at level 3

Stoner81.

[bsquishwizzy]

If you don't need to figure anything out for yourself it becomes less engaging.

Please, don’t take up writing software for end users, thanks.

When someone logs into DDO, what do you think they want to do: run quests or figure out the crafting system? Here’s a hint: it’s not figuring out the crafting system…

[bsquishwizzy]

The new system tends to make items that are weaker and less flexible than the old system that are much more expensive.

Gosh, really?

I think I said something similar in the past (with the exception of the essence costs), and was told I was wrong. Funny how I'm seeing this now repeated elsewhere.

[Cantor]

Gosh, really?

I think I said something similar in the past (with the exception of the essence costs), and was told I was wrong. Funny how I'm seeing this now repeated elsewhere.

Less flexible OK. But weaker? Really? Except at very low levels the increase is dramatic. Your old 6 stat compares to 8 with 3 insight at 15. With a couple of notable exceptions like alacrity.

[MasterKernel]

Players can look it up on the wiki or forums. Promoting engagement is better than holding hands.

I was answering to the "Everything's readily visible in the interface" statement, wasn't I ?

Anyway, everything should be in the game, it's a crafting system, not the gambling game !

[slarden]

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

The safest thing to do would be to take the current minimum level of those effects from cannith crafting, put them all in a list, then tweak if anything looks wrong?

E.g. True Seeing = enhancement modifier +7, so level 13 item, or 11 with masterful
Underwater Action, Deathblock = enhancement modifier +3,or level 5 item, or 3 with masterful
Secret Door Detection, Feather Falling = Enhancement modifier +1 or +2, can just be ML1

etc etc.

I agree but you should use the masterful craftmanship level since realistically that is what crafters ended up with.

[dunklezhan]

I agree but you should use the masterful craftmanship level since realistically that is what crafters ended up with.

Yes.

[Thrudh]

So the devs are pretty much ignoring everyone who says it is too expensive.

Or you could say the devs are listening to everyone who says the costs are fine! Hurray devs for listening!


(Or maybe we should wait and see how it plays out in reality, and the devs can lower costs later if needed.... Raising costs later if needed would be much much harder)

[Thrudh]

I don't see crafting as a tool to make multiple items for every single level during a character's life.

I see as a way to make 1 or 2 items at certain important break points to fill in gaps.

Random loot and named loot covers nearly everything already... I will spend the time and effort leveling my crafter just so I can make an occasional item with the 1-2 attributes I'm missing in my inventory set-up at level 15, or 20, or 28.

But I don't see any reason to set up this system so people can easily make 50 perfect items for themselves, and another 500 items for their guild mates.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

I don't see crafting as a tool to make multiple items for every single level during a character's life.

I see as a way to make 1 or 2 items at certain important break points to fill in gaps.

Random loot and named loot covers nearly everything already... I will spend the time and effort leveling my crafter just so I can make an occasional item with the 1-2 attributes I'm missing in my inventory set-up at level 15, or 20, or 28.

But I don't see any reason to set up this system so people can easily make 50 perfect items for themselves, and another 500 items for their guild mates.

Clearly, you don't work with many new-to-game players. Have you considered that the Starter weapon from the Grotto is potentially the best weapon for up to 5 levels of a character's life? We've run newly generated character experiments, and gone as long as 5 character levels before an all-melee New Random Loot weapon was pulled from a chest!

My guild has seen over 2,000 players pass through over the last 18 months, and I realize that's a high volume, but the players who are truly 'new to game' get taken care of as much as we can, providing a quick/easy prefix-only crafted weapon with a shard to throw on as suffix later (Prefix-only makes it level 1 wield, adding Suffix typically makes it level 2-4 wield), so the players could 'grow' their weapon with their gameplay.

We see it in our Guild Chat all the time, for the new-to-game players who either hit the lottery ("hey look at this" -- a level 1 Vorpal weapon pulled out like a winning lottery ticket) - or the frustration of new-to-gamers who keep asking why all the weapons in the chests only have spell-casting effects! We've been forcibly helping these new players with the existing (soon to be Legacy) Cannith Crafting system.

So, this new system will bring challenges to the game, not just in the social terms you state, but in terms that equate to Player Retention. I say to you and the DDO Dev's -- "Good Luck With That." (we will need luck to avoid an ever creeping and potentially accelerating Maintenance Mode...)