How is this an improvement?

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I don't know if it's so much sky high optimism as feeling it will serve the purpose we want it to. Basically, to fill the occasional holes left by the random and named item systems.

I think most of the pessimism comes from those who see it as failing as a way of always having "at level" gear in every slot they don't have something better in with no real specific effort spent beyond gaining the crafting levels.

I'm in agreement with this. Though I'm not a fan of the collectible/purified shard cost, it seems like it will be very useful to slot items with the effects I want on a piece. Even if I can't make the absolute best of the best stuff at my crafting levels, I feel like I still will be able to make some useful stuff that I need in levels 20+, which is not the case now.

Is it everything I've always wanted? No. Is it better than what we have now? Yes.

[dunklezhan]

Ok, let's try and make it clearer : I have a +6 / ml 10 and a +10/ml 20 item. What ml of the item should I choose to get a better item for in-between levels (which will be +8, because +7/+9 are odd numbers and brings nothing to the table) ? ml 11 ? ml 15 ? ml 19 ? How can I found out it in-game without crafting a bunch of similar items with the same stats but with different minimum level requirements ? (And why would anyone want to spend their crafting mats for that ?).

I understood everything except this bit - what's better than a ML10 item in the new system? Well... a ML11 item? I'm not following the problem you're trying to convey here at all (i.e. please explain some more, don't react like I'm criticising you or dismissing what you're saying, because I'm not).

The featherfalling ring example you gave - I certainly understood that (although... is FF even in CC?).

For non scaling effects (e.g. True Seeing) it does rather look like you'll just make ML1 items, which seems a bit crazy-powerful since this includes things like true seeing, persuasion and metalline.

[MasterKernel]

Within 6 months, Realism will replace Optimism and then let's see what the going opinion of CC is.

I think it'll be a lot faster. Like in a week or so. :-(

1) They will be cut of the Lamannia's unlimited materials supply.
2) (It's really looks strange to me, but) all the people are speaking about (and have done at Lama-land) is how fast (and how to make it fast) gain maximum level in CC. Why ?! It's like nobody can realise that, without proper collectables and essences (that they've spent for leveling), their max. CC level is just a useless number in their character's sheets…

[MasterKernel]

I understood everything except this bit - what's better than a ML10 item in the new system? Well... a ML11 item? I'm not following the problem you're trying to convey here at all (i.e. please explain some more, don't react like I'm criticising you or dismissing what you're saying, because I'm not)

Yes, 11>10. But it's "minimum level" of the item. The problems is in that, we don't know how the values were distributed among MLs.
I. e. it might be : ML 10 - +6 STR, ML 11 - +6 STR, ML 12 - +6 STR, ML 13 - +7 STR, ML 14 - +7 STR, ML 15 - +8 STR, and so on.
Or it might be : ML 10 - ML 15 - +6 STR, ML 16 - 20 - +10 STR.
Or it might be : ML 10 - ML 19 - +6 STR, ML 20 - +10 STR.
etc. etc. etc.
We don't know it ! The game did not show that kind of an information to players. So the players are forced to craft every item possible and see for themselves (wich is not that good design and insane from the crafted items cost's point of wiev) or rely on some other players that'll do the crafting and share the exact values with everyone.

[NoWorries]

For non scaling effects (e.g. True Seeing) it does rather look like you'll just make ML1 items, which seems a bit crazy-powerful since this includes things like true seeing, persuasion and metalline.

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

[Axeyu]

Yes, 11>10. But it's "minimum level" of the item. The problems is in that, we don't know how the values were distributed among MLs.
I. e. it might be : ML 10 - +6 STR, ML 11 - +6 STR, ML 12 - +6 STR, ML 13 - +7 STR, ML 14 - +7 STR, ML 15 - +8 STR, and so on.
Or it might be : ML 10 - ML 15 - +6 STR, ML 16 - 20 - +10 STR.
Or it might be : ML 10 - ML 19 - +6 STR, ML 20 - +10 STR.
etc. etc. etc.
We don't know it ! The game did not show that kind of an information to players. So the players are forced to craft every item possible and see for themselves (wich is not that good design and insane from the crafted items cost's point of wiev) or rely on some other players that'll do the crafting and share the exact values with everyone.

Players can look it up on the wiki or forums. Promoting engagement is better than holding hands.

[Stoner81]

We don't know it ! The game did not show that kind of an information to players. So the players are forced to craft every item possible and see for themselves (wich is not that good design and insane from the crafted items cost's point of wiev) or rely on some other players that'll do the crafting and share the exact values with everyone.

There was this little raid called Shroud where nobody knew the recipes and everything had to be worked out by the players, which some players SPECIFICALLY did to help the community. I see this as being no different, sooner or later everything will be on the wiki.

For non scaling effects (e.g. True Seeing) it does rather look like you'll just make ML1 items, which seems a bit crazy-powerful since this includes things like true seeing, persuasion and metalline.

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

To be fair True Seeing doesn't hurt all that much even at low levels, most players (myself included) have Detect Secret Door googles (or similar) and Blur/Displacement don't really show up until much later on, other effects like Persuassion and Metalline though I do agree could probably use a ML requirement, I would suggest just taking the levels from live as they are and call it a day :/

Stoner81.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

Players can look it up on the wiki or forums. Promoting engagement is better than holding hands.

This information needs to be readily available in game. There should never be a design in which players should go to non-Turbine sources for information.

[Axeyu]

This information needs to be readily available in game. There should never be a design in which players should go to non-Turbine sources for information.

I disagree. Such systems have been very successful in the past.

[Elfishski]

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

The safest thing to do would be to take the current minimum level of those effects from cannith crafting, put them all in a list, then tweak if anything looks wrong?

E.g. True Seeing = enhancement modifier +7, so level 13 item, or 11 with masterful
Underwater Action, Deathblock = enhancement modifier +3,or level 5 item, or 3 with masterful
Secret Door Detection, Feather Falling = Enhancement modifier +1 or +2, can just be ML1

etc etc.

[changelingamuck]

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

I would suggest looking up all of the non-scaling enchantments/effects through this page:

Named Items Sorted by Enchantment

Then look at the lowest minimum level named item that the relevant non-scaling enchantment/effect appears on. Then, make sure that the non-scaling enchantment/effect has a minimum level higher than that in Cannith crafting.

It's especially problematic for players to be able to craft spell cast-able effects before casters can even cast them.

EDIT:

The safest thing to do would be to take the current minimum level of those effects from cannith crafting, put them all in a list, then tweak if anything looks wrong?

This too.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

I disagree. Such systems have been very successful in the past.

So name three, and I'll give you one the Shroud.

Why did the Shroud Altars get modified so they use the barter interface that displays what the end result is?

[Axeyu]

Any successful system disproves your claim that it "needs" to be your way.

[Ziindarax]

I can easily make some of those effects need Minimum Level 10 to be applied to an item, question is, which should be restricted in that way?

I think that is not necessary. Unless we're talking about the spells (in which case, the clicky spells should not ever be usable before a caster class can start using it). As far as damage effects go, I looked at the spreadsheet someone posted and was wondering - why is there such a huge gap between 3d6 and 5d6 damage, and nothing north of that? Shouldn't we be able to craft up to 10d6?

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...other effects like Persuassion and Metalline though I do agree could probably use a ML requirement, I would suggest just taking the levels from live as they are and call it a day :/

Stoner81.

Persuasion should be no higher than Minimum Level 3 to wield by itself, as you can currently make a Ring of Persuasion in the current/legacy CC, for that exact wield level 3 ring.

[Rykka]

I think it'll be a lot faster. Like in a week or so. :-(

1) They will be cut of the Lamannia's unlimited materials supply.
2) (It's really looks strange to me, but) all the people are speaking about (and have done at Lama-land) is how fast (and how to make it fast) gain maximum level in CC. Why ?! It's like nobody can realise that, without proper collectables and essences (that they've spent for leveling), their max. CC level is just a useless number in their character's sheets…

I can only speak for myself but these are the reasons that I will boost to ~Lvl300.

The limiting factor for my crafting will be collectables not essence. I will want Epic crafted items more than Heroic ones. I won't have enough collectables to make them for TRs as well. Heroic item crafting costs that same ammount of collectables as epic ones. Essence is easy to get. I can level CC on essence alone. Therefor I will blow essence to max level. Create epic items first. Then work my way down in levels as I get more collectables. In another year or two I might even consider going back to crafting for others...

[Wizza]

Any successful system disproves your claim that it "needs" to be your way.

So which system, other than Heroic Shroud, which was changed in Legendary? Everyone hated alt-tabbing 20 times to see what you have to craft even in heroic.

Maybe it doesnt "need" to be that way but it is surely a better way than having to look up the wiki or the forums. Every single information should be available in the game itself.

[Axeyu]

So which system, other than Heroic Shroud, which was changed in Legendary? Everyone hated alt-tabbing 20 times to see what you have to craft even in heroic.

Maybe it doesnt "need" to be that way but it is surely a better way than having to look up the wiki or the forums. Every single information should be available in the game itself.

"So which system except the system that is a perfect example?"
Really?

Maybe it's better, but it is in no way needed. Its a trade-off, too much hand holding and convenience ("fairy dust" in NWO for example ) makes the system less interesting and engaging.

[Wizza]

"So which system except the system that is a perfect example?"
Really?

Maybe it's better, but it is in no way needed. Its a trade-off, too much hand holding and convenience ("fairy dust" in NWO for example ) makes the system less interesting and engaging.

Explaining in game how a system works is now considered "hand-holding" and "convenience" and makes the system "less interesting" ? Sorry but no. It's how it should be.

Bonus effects? Sure, those can be omitted and be a surprise for the players to discover but the basics? No way.


And heroic shroud is obnoxious. Best crafting, in terms of options, but awful when it comes down to the actual crafting part.

[Axeyu]

Explaining in game how a system works is now considered "hand-holding" and "convenience" and makes the system "less interesting" ? Sorry but no. It's how it should be.

Bonus effects? Sure, those can be omitted and be a surprise for the players to discover but the basics? No way.


And heroic shroud is obnoxious. Best crafting, in terms of options, but awful when it comes down to the actual crafting part.

If you don't need to figure anything out for yourself it becomes less engaging.