Update 32 on Lamannia: Cannith Crafting Preview

[Ellihor]

The only caveat to the above statement is that Forgotten Realms quests will have their own special collectible dispensers. The only difference between Forgotten Realms dispensers and Eberron dispensers will be the inclusion or exclusion of collectibles with lore specific to either campaign setting (Soarwood will not drop in the Forgotten Realms, for example).



We will be adding collectible dispensers to as many of the quests that don't currently have them (both Forgotten Realms and ones simply made after collectibles were no longer used) as we have time to manage before the release of U32. It is possible not every single quest will have collectible dispensers when U32 launches but many more will than currently do and the goal will be to, eventually (if we don't manage it by U32), make sure every quest has collectible dispensers.

Why don't you just make them drop in chests and also like epic token fragments: you get them automatically when monster dies. While we're at it, make remnants drop like token fragments too.

[Cocomajobo]

This is the main thing. You have to search in the item machine, not the shard machine to know where things go.

The shards themselves make no distinction between Prefix, Suffix, or Extra slots. If you want a particular effect you simply need to craft that effect shard there is no need to sort for various versions of that effect.

For example: Every recipe to apply Enhancement Dexterity to an unbound item, regardless of item type or slot, uses the same "Dexterity Shard (Unbound)" item as the ingredient.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The shards themselves make no distinction between Prefix, Suffix, or Extra slots. If you want a particular effect you simply need to craft that effect shard there is no need to sort for various versions of that effect.

For example: Every recipe to apply Enhancement Dexterity to an item, regardless of item type or slot, uses the same "Dexterity Shard (Unbound)" item as the ingredient.

the shard creation machines need a x1-x## so can easily craft multiples.
all machines need some filters... like combat, melee, caster, skill (like the cannith.cubicleninja.com crafting planner has)... would be nice if could filter by slot...

[Cocomajobo]

Why don't you just make them drop in chests and also like epic token fragments: you get them automatically when monster dies. While we're at it, make remnants drop like token fragments too.

While the second question is one I would need to ask others about, I can answer the first question!

Collectibles dropping in chests instead of separate dispensers is undesireable because there is already so much value present in chests. Players, myself included, already have so much incentive to maximize the efficiency of getting to the chests in a quest. Separate Collectible dispensers provide an incentive to explore more of a quest. Sprinkling collectible dispensers throughout dungeons makes people be able to justify, and feel rewarded for, spending a little bit of time exploring sections of quests that would otherwise be bypassed. Obviously, people will soon find optimal efficiency collectible grinding routes just as they currently do with chests and XP but adding a third (smaller but more frequently encountered) reward source into quests does a lot to enhance the flower sniffing experience.

[Elfishski]

While the second question is one I would need to ask others about, I can answer the first question!

Collectibles dropping in chests instead of separate dispensers is undesireable because there is already so much value present in chests. Players, myself included, already have so much incentive to maximize the efficiency of getting to the chests in a quest. Separate Collectible dispensers provide an incentive to explore more of a quest. Sprinkling collectible dispensers throughout dungeons makes people be able to justify, and feel rewarded for, spending a little bit of time exploring sections of quests that would otherwise be bypassed. Obviously, people will soon find optimal efficiency collectible grinding routes just as they currently do with chests and XP but adding a third (smaller but more frequently encountered) reward source into quests does a lot to enhance the flower sniffing experience.

I love the addition of collectibles to quests without them, and I love that they have a use, and I completely agree about having smaller rewards scattered around being a great improvement in the experience over Pure Zerg.

However, chest value (for players with a lot of gear and past lives) is taking a serious hit with this update which so totally kills off the value of random items which were only recently made potentially relevant, given it will be functionally impossible (probability way lower than a lottery win to get something minutely better =/= worth looking at chests) to get better items from random loot than crafted.

Please, for levels 10-29 drop it down just one notch (i.e. one +1 stat equivalent) so better random loot is still *plausible* to find. Crafted will still have higher bonuses than nearly all existing named and 99.9% of random loot, and still be very worth making. You don't need to kill random loot in the process.

[slarden]

Please, for levels 10-29 drop it down just one notch (i.e. one +1 stat equivalent) so better random loot is still *plausible* to find. Crafted will still have higher bonuses than nearly all existing named and 99.9% of random loot, and still be very worth making. You don't need to kill random loot in the process.

I've noted some random loot I have with higher stats compared to the cc google doc spreadsheet aside from just level 30. I don't think lowering stats is needed and may lower interest in crafting. Random loot will significantly outnumber my crafted loot for leveling. At cap both random and crafted gear will be a very small %.

You can't make insightful stat and some other shards with unbound crafting so non-crafters will probably still end up choosing random loot in most cases.

[Elfishski]

I've noted some random loot I have with higher stats compared to the cc google doc spreadsheet aside from just level 30. I don't think lowering stats is needed and may lower interest in crafting. Random loot will significantly outnumber my crafted loot for leveling. At cap both random and crafted gear will be a very small %.

You can't make insightful stat and some other shards with unbound crafting so non-crafters will probably still end up choosing random loot in most cases.

Yes, on very rare occasions we can find an item with one effect which is stronger than the crafted items.

Nobody will ever find an item which has 3 effects (which are all good effects, not e.g. sonic resistance), an augment slot (nobody will ever craft without one unless they really can't find any, why would you?), one of which has a higher than possible with crafted value, and the other two are still at least as strong. Even if they did find an item that absolutely, absurdly, remarkably lucky (on all the servers, someone possibly has done)... it would be such a minor and trivial upgrade from the crafted item that they wouldn't bother looking.

You say it might lower interest in crafting if the bonus was lowered, but again: even a point lower and it's still higher bonuses than any existing named items (which is what I still end up using more than random loot), and it's still a guaranteed 3 things you want. It's still absolutely worth crafting, and it's just a little bit less power creep, and a little bit less obsolescence from just two updates back. The only thing it would change is that we could imagine finding a better random item than we could craft. Quite probably with one bonus point higher if we can accept crumby secondary bonus, but if we're incredibly lucky then more than that. That's just enough to keep interest in random loot alive, while having a good alternative in crafting.

I still maintain the best system to both keep named and random loot relevant while satisfying people who want high bonuses, people who want lots of effects, and people who want flexibility would be one where we can use a variety of different 'marks' as per mark of house cannith to have either:
- 2 strong bonuses in the normal random loot slot (e.g. +8 stat at level 15, as per now),
- 3 somewhat weaker bonuses in the normal random loot slot (e.g. +7 stat at level 15 as I'm suggesting as the easiest modification to the current system), or
- 2 weaker bonuses but allow shards to be flexible in terms of loot slot (e.g. only +6 at level 15, but hey, that's still just as good as any old named items, and at least you can put it where you want which is all a lot of people are asking for... or given the cost in ingredients, could still go up to +7)

[Ballyspringer]

However, chest value (for players with a lot of gear and past lives) is taking a serious hit with this update which so totally kills off the value of random items which were only recently made potentially relevant, given it will be functionally impossible (probability way lower than a lottery win to get something minutely better =/= worth looking at chests) to get better items from random loot than crafted.

Please, for levels 10-29 drop it down just one notch (i.e. one +1 stat equivalent) so better random loot is still *plausible* to find. Crafted will still have higher bonuses than nearly all existing named and 99.9% of random loot, and still be very worth making. You don't need to kill random loot in the process.

I think this would be an issue if someone new to the game could be a top level crafter and have full access to the top items you can make in a month - as is in order to get to the levels to make said gear takes years in most cases just to get the essences required to level up in it, not to mention the collectibles needed. It would be interesting for turbine to post the % of the population that has over different level thresholds in the system - so out of all players (including those who do not choose to craft at all) what % is over lvl 50, over lvl 100, ect and then update it periodically. I think the % would be a lot lower than many on the forums would think - and hey maybe I'm wrong and it's much higher.

Personally I don't think it's a very high number, and absolutely I'd be shocked if any more than well below 50% of accounts (I'd guess 20-30% personally tops) would be able to make most anything useful past low leveled toons - so chest loot is absolutely valued and random will absolutely be valued highly still for most players.


On a side note - if you truly love the experience of random loot and finding that perfect item - crafting is and always will be completely optional and not required. So don't craft and you don't have to worry about it!

[Ebondevil]

You say it might lower interest in crafting if the bonus was lowered, but again: even a point lower and it's still higher bonuses than any existing named items (which is what I still end up using more than random loot)

Comparing to named loot is pointless since the devs have said they plan to do a Named item pass.

I still maintain the best system to both keep named and random loot relevant

I still maintain Random loot is mostly (99.999%) irrelevant without a viable crafting system and as such should not be used as a reason to nerf Crafted loot which takes time and effort to skill up and build.

Despite this, there are things you can get in Random loot that you won't get in Crafted loot

• Three Effects, none of which are insightful (I have looted these)
• Three Effects, two of which are insightful (I have looted these too)
• Various Enhancements which can't be crafted (Vorpal, Banishing etc.)
• Masterful Crafted items

So again, Random loot should not be used as reason to nerf Crafted loot.

The only issues I see at the moment are the lack of flexible shards (which I personally don't care much about), and the Collectible cost of making Crafted Items, which is admittedly hard to judge from Lammania as we'll need to see the rate of gain of the Collectibles with the changes to the Collectible drops which they plan.

[Qhualor]

Comparing to named loot is pointless since the devs have said they plan to do a Named item pass.

They did? Do you know where I can find that post?

[Cocomajobo]

Comparing to named loot is pointless since the devs have said they plan to do a Named item pass.

As far as I am aware, this has not been said by a dev.

[UurlockYgmeov]

double slotted RGL should come back - as extremely rare drop - and / or to replace BtA RGL in chains...

[zehnvhex]

While the second question is one I would need to ask others about, I can answer the first question!

Collectibles dropping in chests instead of separate dispensers is undesireable because there is already so much value present in chests. Players, myself included, already have so much incentive to maximize the efficiency of getting to the chests in a quest. Separate Collectible dispensers provide an incentive to explore more of a quest. Sprinkling collectible dispensers throughout dungeons makes people be able to justify, and feel rewarded for, spending a little bit of time exploring sections of quests that would otherwise be bypassed. Obviously, people will soon find optimal efficiency collectible grinding routes just as they currently do with chests and XP but adding a third (smaller but more frequently encountered) reward source into quests does a lot to enhance the flower sniffing experience.

What would be the feasibility of making it easier to interact with ground spawn items? It's really difficult right now, especially if you have a huge corpse pile, to interact with anything that drops on the ground. Could a "attempt to loot anything in immediate area" key be added to the keybinds list? As it stands now you pretty much need to use a programmable keyboard to get the desired effect and even that is sorely lacking/prone to bugging out.

Not as big of a deal when it comes to giant collectible objects like bookcases, but mob dropped ones and mushrooms and -especially- remnants are a major pain in the butt to deal with. It's a huge source of frustration for new and veteran players and honestly something that has turned several of my friends off the game.

[Steve_Howe]

Comparing to named loot is pointless since the devs have said they plan to do a Named item pass.

Nonsense.

[R1ncewind]

As far as I am aware, this has not been said by a dev.

In that case do you think there is a chance a pass will be made to named items? it will revitalize a lot of content, specially if you focus on the ones with the lowest sales. Just saying...

[zehnvhex]

That might actually introduce a desire to run old content and drive sales as people purchase adventure packs they passed up because the loot is now worth getting. Turbine hates money so they'd never do that. Instead we're going to get a dungeon that is 90% hallways and a crafting system that requires recall/resetting dungeons you're 15 levels over in order to farm collectibles.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

As far as I am aware, this has not been said by a dev.

In one of the live streams NoWorries strongly suggested that was the case. At least that is how I took his comment. I think it was on the DDOCast last week, but I may have them mixed up.

There was also a mention of Augments, again I talk the statement as suggesting Augments were going to get a pass at some point.

[Aelonwy]

Yes, on very rare occasions we can find an item with one effect which is stronger than the crafted items.

Nobody will ever find an item which has 3 effects (which are all good effects, not e.g. sonic resistance), an augment slot (nobody will ever craft without one unless they really can't find any, why would you?), one of which has a higher than possible with crafted value, and the other two are still at least as strong. Even if they did find an item that absolutely, absurdly, remarkably lucky (on all the servers, someone possibly has done)... it would be such a minor and trivial upgrade from the crafted item that they wouldn't bother looking.

I would like to turn this statement on its head, its also entirely possible to get random loot such that crafted loot (at the same level) is a minor/trivial upgrade and not worth bothering to use the ingredients to craft.

Example: On thelanis I have a ml 15 cloak with 8 cha/8nat Ac/+2 ins cha, it does happen to be MC (I hadn't noticed before) but doesn't have a slot.

According to the charts with the revamped Cannith Crafting I could make this marginally better with +3 ins cha and a slot or two. But it isn't worth it to me to spend the ingredients to do so and I maintain that random loot will retain much of its value because of these situations. Is this a stars aligned perfect item for its level? No, but its more than good enough that spending the resources to re-craft it are unnecessary and probably unwise all things considered.

With the system as it currently appears I will be on the lookout for random loot with slots, with bonus effects, with MC and random loot with effects not available in CC AT ALL LEVELS and to me at least random loot with good enough effects at level will still be important because I am unlikely to ever stockpile the resources necessary to craft whatever/whenever willy-nilly.

[Ebondevil]

As far as I am aware, this has not been said by a dev.

Could have sworn it was mentioned, can't find an exact reference so I'll assume it was this I was thinking of and I read too much into it then:

You are correct, I was focusing on the lag part of it. It's absolutely valid feedback to recommend that we go through the named loot tables and make some adjustments. (Also, yeah - good thread!)

Sorry

[maddong]

I don't think lowering stats is needed and may lower interest in crafting. Random loot will significantly outnumber my crafted loot for leveling. At cap both random and crafted gear will be a very small %.

You can't make insightful stat and some other shards with unbound crafting so non-crafters will probably still end up choosing random loot in most cases.

You are worried about lowering my interest in something that you have demonstrated will take me less than 18 minutes for my level 250 crafter to level up to make obscene endgame items? There won't be any non crafters as it will be required for end game loot.

What about the fact that this lowers my interest in trying to run endgame LE quests because there is no return on investment? Slavelords will be the only thing worth running at cap because loot jewels will just be TP you should have spent on crafting success boosters.

Of course people won't waste ingredients on leveling gear. I level with cheap **** off the auction house. Nothing more is needed to lead the kill count if you are on a good build.