How many past lives should be required?

[Pyed-Pyper]

Some context:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...s-CR55-Kobolds
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...isit+caster+dc
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Damage-in-Epic
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...sit+dc+casting
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...88#post5845788
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...or-Pale-Master

More context:
triple heroic completionist, triple iconic completionist, double epic completionist (just a few more eR's for triple), very well geared.

While doing my Deep Gnome lives as Wizard, I began to think again about how DC casting was such a frustrating waste of time. I wondered what I was doing incorrectly (see above). What I would really like to know from one of the developers is, how many past lives should be required to play a DC wizard. Answers for other classes (aside from Warlock) would be interesting as well.

[Ykt]

You may be underperforming in LE, but some classes are underperforming in LN or LH, they need more fixing than you.

[Pyed-Pyper]

You may be underperforming in LE, but some classes are underperforming in LN or LH, they need more fixing than you.

Would you rephrase your answer in the form of an integer?

[Ellihor]

In this case, DC casters, triple completionist is not going to help you much. What matter at this point is 3x wizard, 9x divine PL and 3x fvs. 1x completionist is also cool but that means you have a 5% bonus.

But to answer your question, I think requiring 15 lifes to be useful on top endgame content is OK. Other builds will want that too, for example ranged builds will want the divine PLs and 3x ranger/monk. The difference on a DC caster is bigger than on any other build if you don't have those spellpen past lifes, but a DC caster can do a greater impact on a raid than any other build.

DC casting is a very niched thing, one of the few "roles" still existing in DDO. And roles are not very good for quests and for soloing, but for raiding. I just hope we don't get more DoJs in the future. Personally I think the saves for LE raids are OK, in fact the problem is mostly quests: too much monsters that have 2 high saves and too much immunity (and I mean both immunity to DC effects like instakill and crowd control, but also immunity/absorption to elemental damage). Also champions. Champions are a pain in the ass of any DC caster.

It is intresting that before champions sorcerers were the best framework for heroic lvling, but that changed with them. The problem is that if you are on a caster and you find a champ immune to instakill and with that crazy absorption for 3+ kind of elements you are going to dump like 700+ spellpoints only to kill that target. That is... if it doesn't kill you first because it will likely have extra damage buff (and true seeing) that is crearly not balanced for pajamas.

[Thrudh]

While doing my Deep Gnome lives as Wizard, I began to think again about how DC casting was such a frustrating waste of time. I wondered what I was doing incorrectly (see above).

What part is frustrating? Are you talking CC (Crowd-control) or Insta-kill? Do you debuff at all? Problems with all mobs or Spell Resistance mobs? Is 95% success required for you to not be frustrated?

What I would really like to know from one of the developers is, how many past lives should be required to play a DC wizard. Answers for other classes (aside from Warlock) would be interesting as well.

Well,

1 past-life wizard (and taking the active feat) gives you +1 DC to everything
1 past-life bard (and taking the active feat) gives you +1 DC to enchant

3 past-lives in wizard gives you +6 to Spell Pen

So, I'd say 4 heroic past lives is a decent and fair investment. That's what my wizard has, and he does very well in almost all content.

Of course, heroic completionist gives +2 to stats, so that's another +1 DC to everything, but that's a lot more work for a small benefit.
If Spell Pen is still giving you problems, 3 past lives of Favored Soul gives another +3 to Spell Pen.

None of the epic past lives directly help with DC casting at all. Epic completionist gives you another twist slot, so that could help.

But you should know all this, as a triple everything.

Personally, I think my DC caster wizard needs LESS epic past-lives than my melee characters, since he fights from ranged. Although I will slowly work on getting epic completionist with him, I'm sure. I definitely don't feel like I need any more heroic past-lives past the 3 wizard lives, and the 1 bard life.

[Pyed-Pyper]

What part is frustrating? Are you talking CC (Crowd-control) or Insta-kill? Do you debuff at all? Problems with all mobs or Spell Resistance mobs? ....

Debuffing, now that's an interesting topic. Do debuffs work? Which ones? It seems like most mobs have inherent resistances. abilities, and buffs that are immune to debuffing. I didn't see anything good come from the dispel magics, or Disjunction. A triple neg LGS intel stick in combination with enervations and NR simply softened them up for the melees, as if the melees actually needed any help.

.... Is 95% success required for you to not be frustrated? ....

As a well-spec'd, well-geared end-game DC caster I was seeing blue shields and blue hexagons. "95% success"? Nice strawman. I doubt I was hitting a 5% success rate.

[Pyed-Pyper]

...
But to answer your question, I think requiring 15 lifes to be useful on top endgame content is OK. Other builds will want that too, for example ranged builds will want the divine PLs and 3x ranger/monk....

15 past lives to play an end-game DC caster. Do you think, for example, a barbarian should require 15 PLs to be viable at cap?

[Enoach]

The answer should be Zero (0).

Now first don't take my words to mean a First Life Wizard should have 100%, 95% or even 75% success rate right out of the box.

Here is what Past Lives get you for a caster

Up to +3 Conjuration DC (Cleric past lives)
Up to +3 Evocation DC (Sorcerer past lives)
Up to +3 Illusion DC (Deep Gnome Past Lives)
Up to +9 Spell Penetration (Wizard + Favored Soul Past Lives)

Access to +1 DC Active Feat

Yes, all of those combined can add quite a bit of power to a DC caster, but content should not have these as anything more then a bonus or opening flexibility of builds.

But even with my enjoyment of my DC caster I do not want 100% success when I'm running AT or content above my level. I should be geared to the teeth.

My biggest issue is with Epic Wards and Debuff recovery - Fix this and you will fix 75% of the issues with DC casting.

[Ellihor]

15 past lives to play an end-game DC caster. Do you think, for example, a barbarian should require 15 PLs to be viable at cap?

On a barb I would want 9x divine, 3x arcane and 3x martial as well, so that's 14 already. Of course you don't need that to be "viable", but then you don't really need 15 PLs to be "viable" on a DC caster.

[slarden]

Here is a DC 89/90 and spell pen 60 illusionist build with U32. This doesn't include the new crafting just the new rune arm and ring for spell pen primarily:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5853817

For a 2nd lifer with 1 past life wizard this gives you an 89 DC and 60 spell pen + ruin, greater ruin, arcane pulse and hellball for some dps. Or drop greater Ruin for 90.

But to answer your question the past lifes are huge. Higher DC, spell pen, prr, hp...

The nice thing about illusionist is you can be le raid capable (a little squishy and slightly sub par dc, spell pen and makes lofty suggestions like +7 int tome which realistically means ddo store) immediately as a first-lifer and then tr for improvements without changing your build.

If someone is unwilling to get an past lifes - even easy iconic deep gnome past lifes then caster probably isnt' right build.

[slarden]

Debuffing, now that's an interesting topic. Do debuffs work? Which ones? It seems like most mobs have inherent resistances. abilities, and buffs that are immune to debuffing. I didn't see anything good come from the dispel magics, or Disjunction. A triple neg LGS intel stick in combination with enervations and NR simply softened them up for the melees, as if the melees actually needed any help.

As a well-spec'd, well-geared end-game DC caster I was seeing blue shields and blue hexagons. "95% success"? Nice strawman. I doubt I was hitting a 5% success rate.

Best debuffs are easy button energy drain for instakill and crushing despair for will saves. Both require a spell pen check but a I mentioned in previous post you can get to 60 as a 2nd life deep gnome illusionist.

[zwiebelring]

- edit -
nevermind.

[Blastyswa]

Some context:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...s-CR55-Kobolds
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...isit+caster+dc
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Damage-in-Epic
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...sit+dc+casting
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...88#post5845788
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...or-Pale-Master

More context:
triple heroic completionist, triple iconic completionist, double epic completionist (just a few more eR's for triple), very well geared.

While doing my Deep Gnome lives as Wizard, I began to think again about how DC casting was such a frustrating waste of time. I wondered what I was doing incorrectly (see above). What I would really like to know from one of the developers is, how many past lives should be required to play a DC wizard. Answers for other classes (aside from Warlock) would be interesting as well.

I personally have a first life deep gnome wizard with no tomes at level 30. With 55 Spell Penetration, and 70-80 necro DC, I'm currently able to lead kills in LE Tempest's Spine/HoX, LH Shroud, and most every quest, assuming no one who's just flat out better than me at insta-kills is in the party, especially since I have to debuff a little bit. With u32, I would gain +4 spell penetration, and at least +5 DC from a 5 piece set.

Despite all that, I'm still TRing the character a few times to pick up 3x deep gnome, 3x wizard, and 3x favored soul past lives (Which, by the way, are the only ones you really need to worry about as a DC caster, with the possible exclusion of completionist and epic past lives), and that's not just because I want to be effective in LE Shroud, the only raid I currently can't contribute in. The reason is that, without past lives, you have to sacrifice A LOT from other categories to bump up that spell penetration in particular; +4 spell pen orb from u32, 3 twists towards spell penetration, Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier, all become necessary if you want to make up for that spell penetration difference. So I wouldn't necessarily say that DC caster's aren't workable without past lives, it's just that they perform much better when you can unload a lot of that spell penetration boosting onto a passive benefit like past lives instead of something with opportunity cost like multiple twists and items.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I personally have a first life deep gnome wizard with no tomes at level 30. With 55 Spell Penetration, and 70-80 necro DC, I'm currently able to lead kills in LE Tempest's Spine/HoX, LH Shroud, and most every quest, assuming no one who's just flat out better than me at insta-kills is in the party, especially since I have to debuff a little bit. With u32, I would gain +4 spell penetration, and at least +5 DC from a 5 piece set.

Despite all that, I'm still TRing the character a few times to pick up 3x deep gnome, 3x wizard, and 3x favored soul past lives (Which, by the way, are the only ones you really need to worry about as a DC caster, with the possible exclusion of completionist and epic past lives), and that's not just because I want to be effective in LE Shroud, the only raid I currently can't contribute in. The reason is that, without past lives, you have to sacrifice A LOT from other categories to bump up that spell penetration in particular; +4 spell pen orb from u32, 3 twists towards spell penetration, Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier, all become necessary if you want to make up for that spell penetration difference. So I wouldn't necessarily say that DC caster's aren't workable without past lives, it's just that they perform much better when you can unload a lot of that spell penetration boosting onto a passive benefit like past lives instead of something with opportunity cost like multiple twists and items.

I noticed you didn't mention DoJ in your list of successes but you do list the Gauntlets.

[Thrudh]

if I'm having problems with Mass Hold, I just lead with a hypnotism (automatic -3 will save to the mobs)

Energy drain before an insta-kill spell if you're having problems with fort saves.

You don't need a lot of past-lives to do well as a DC caster. Very few past lives affect your important DCs (Enchantment and Necro) anyway.

[Pyed-Pyper]

if I'm having problems with Mass Hold, I just lead with a hypnotism (automatic -3 will save to the mobs)

Energy drain before an insta-kill spell if you're having problems with fort saves.

You don't need a lot of past-lives to do well as a DC caster. Very few past lives affect your important DCs (Enchantment and Necro) anyway.

Hypnotism - great spell for eliciting a torrent of complaints from others in the group, especially melees. I've even gotten complaints from other classes that would benefit from the debuff.

[Thrudh]

Hypnotism - great spell for eliciting a torrent of complaints from others in the group, especially melees. I've even gotten complaints from other classes that would benefit from the debuff.

No, you are thinking of Hypnotic Pattern. Hypnotism is a 1st level spell (also an easy SLA to pick up for a wizard) that doesn't have the annoying screen clutter like Hypnotic Pattern.

It's cheap, it casts very fast, it's AOE, and then you follow it immediately with a Mass Hold. +3 to your Mass Hold DCs every time.

There's more to this game than just grinding out as many past-lives as you can.

[SlashbackWarrior]

So answer is none. Given context about caster - probably none as well. Yes if you want go DC CC or insta kill in LE content you will need 3Wiz 3Fvs for spell penn thats about it. completionist is nice but this is just 1 DC. As long as you can bypass SR you can debuff mobs. Will be more intense on SP but cant have everhything. Also there are some options that do not require SR, good old web, prismatic spray, color spray. Shiradi after all. and 6 past lifes probably not too much investment for end game content. Yes you will not be as durable and as versatile as triple completionist but you can fulfill your ROLE without extensive grind. Similar goes for other classes.

[Enoach]

So answer is none. Given context about caster - probably none as well. Yes if you want go DC CC or insta kill in LE content you will need 3Wiz 3Fvs for spell penn thats about it. completionist is nice but this is just 1 DC. As long as you can bypass SR you can debuff mobs. Will be more intense on SP but cant have everhything. Also there are some options that do not require SR, good old web, prismatic spray, color spray. Shiradi after all. and 6 past lifes probably not too much investment for end game content. Yes you will not be as durable and as versatile as triple completionist but you can fulfill your ROLE without extensive grind. Similar goes for other classes.

Check out Slarden's link again - they show a Spell Penetration of 60 with a single Wizard Past Life

Following is pulled from that post:

Spell Pen Breakdown
Wizard Levels: 20
Magister Levels: 5
Magister: 3
Spell Penetration Feat: 2
Greater Spell Penetration Feat: 2
Epic Spell Penetration Feat: 4
Enhancement Bonus Item: 7 (new U32 ring)
Insightful Bonus: 4 (new U32 orb)
1x Wizard Past Lifes: 2
Gloves: 2 (DOJ Gloves)
Ship Buff: 1
Echoes of the Anestor Arcane Twist: 2
Draconic Spell Pen Twist: 3
Archmage Tree: 3
Total: 60

What this means is that the Past Lives above the first wizard means less dedicated enhancements, twists or gear to get to 60 Spell Pen.

I think the problem that most people have is that they don't see debuffs as a value added. Using Hypnotism or Crushing Despair as a precursor to the Mass Hold comes out very cheap in the long run, especially so when you figure out how much less damage your party takes vs damage output. Additionally, those two spells work best when using them at their lowest spell point cost (no metas) to keep them cheap.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Zero