Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[slarden]

Crafted items are temporary. Turbine doesn't understand this. This is their biggest mistake.

Crafting does not need to be challenging. It should be an easy, natural way for people to get the most of their characters throughout the leveling process.

I assume people are not using the crafting system very much and turbine is trying to revive interest. Unfortunately, since they don't really understand why most people don't craft now, the changes they are proposing, I believe, is going to make the situation worse.

Most people rush through the game to get to end content and don't care about anything that slows them down. Taking the time to level in crafting, collecting ingredients, even taking the time to create items, is just slowing them down from getting to level 30. That is just a fact as to how most people I have met play this game. Play all levels on elite for max xp. Always grab the bravery bonus. Keep xp pots running the whole time. Get to the end of the dungeon as fast as possible for the highest XP to time ratio. Run high XP dungeons over and over and ignore the rest. For these people, crafting offers nothing. It is only a distraction. You MUST make it easier for these people.

I personally don't run through levels as fast as possible. I try to enjoy the game at every level. At every level I look to see what equipment I can purchase to upgrade the attributes needed by the build. And then I craft to fill in the missing pieces. I believe that most of the people who are still crafting use the system in this way. But all of the items I craft will be useful for only one or two more levels. And I will have to destroy said item because of limitation of inventory space. The people who do craft a lot already know this.

It would be nice to have a spot item for each possible level in my inventory, but I just don't have the space to keep seven different spot items.

It is nice to create a set of True Seeing goggles at level 11. But as I level I will need to add something to the googles and when I TR and come around to level 11 again I will have to make a new set.

So, since most crafted items are temporary, the big problem is that the ingredient costs are too high.

To keep up with the ingredients, you have to deconstruct almost every bit of loot you find. You can't run to the vendor to clear out your inventory. You must go to the crafting station and deconstruct, which takes forever. Most people don't have the patience or the commitment to do this every time, so they wont ever have enough ingredients to craft even if they wanted to. Being able to deconstruct in batches will help a little, but you still have to take time to go to the station. Yes they can buy the items on the AH. But that collapses eventually. As fewer people craft, there becomes no reason to even take the time to sell ingredients. As of right now on the AH there is only one Greater Ingredient available (9 Greater Law) with an initial bit of 180 plat.

Collectible drops are ridiculously low. I have looted hundreds of mushrooms without ever finding a simple deadly feverblanch. Most of the collectibles are not useful for crafting, but the few that are very useful, don't drop very often. Since there are 11 types of mushroom, the chance of finding a deadly feverblanch on any one drop is lessened. And turbine is going to be adding MORE ingredients. You shouldn't have to rerun a dungeon 10 times just to try to find a mushroom with a deadly feverblanch. People just stop trying.

So, what should crafting be? It should be an easy way to make temporary items that fit into your current selection of gear. It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

ALL collectibles and ingredients should be available in the DDO store at reasonable prices. Sell batches of ingredients and collectibles of 100 for 25 turbine points. People who don't want to spend time collecting and deconstructing, will be happy to buy the items. And they will be cheap enough that they will keep coming back for more. Sell the items for too much and they will continue as they do now without even trying to craft. Those of us who deconstruct and collect will not have to worry about buying items but the drop counts should be higher. Let a mushroom act like a chest with multiple collectible items. Or at least allow multiples of a single item (7 deadly feverblanch for example in one mushroom).

Give the ingredient collectors the ability to change one type of collectible for another. (PLEASE no higher than a 2 for 1 ratio. You guys are ridiculous with some of your other exchange ratios.)

Any item used in crafting should not be a random drop. For example the Locus of Vol for vampirism. Make it ALWAYS drop in the chest or make it ALWAYS an end reward. So we don't have to run the quest 10 times to get one. At the very least up the chance of dropping considerably for construction items.




An aside on lesser and greater ingredients.

Ok. What is up with lesser and greater ingredients. Having both makes no sense whatsoever. Lets think of dollars as greater ingredients and quarters as lesser.
The deception shard is 1 greater and 4 lesser ingredients.

This is the equivalent to saying "The cost is 1 dollar and four quarters."
If you have $2, that wont work. You will have to go to a machine and convert one of those dollars into quarters before the transaction can take place. Silly.

I dont' agree with bolded part at all. There is enough easy things in this game already.

Some crafting is an automatic - shroud, toee etc.. I think it's good to have a crafting system we have to work for so it's accomplishment to be a high-level crafter.

The success boosters and xp boosters are available from the store already and help with leveling quite a bit. crafting xp pots also available from house C vendor with first level favor.

I am not 100% opposed to selling collectibles in the store but my fear is it becomes like tomes that almost never drop in game and are available in the store. For cannith crafting up to 150 I avoided using rare ingredients for leveling and instead saved those for when I needed to make the item (example large devil scales for greater outsider evil bane). I assume the new system will be the same way so that you can find a leveling path that doesn't involve super rare ingredients but to make a good item it might require a rare ingredient.

While some of the stats won't match top tier random loot, in general I think it allows us to make some really great items that would be hard to get as random loot with exactly the things we need - so that is the trade off with the new system. So if you are a DC caster and want to max out DC you will need +8 focus item, +4 insightful focus item, +17 stat item. All extremely rare to get and not craftable - I am ok with that. You can craft +6, +3 insightful and +15 stats still for twink gear.

[azrael4h]

I dont' agree with bolded part at all. There is enough easy things in this game already.

Some crafting is an automatic - shroud, toee etc.. I think it's good to have a crafting system we have to work for so it's accomplishment to be a high-level crafter.

The success boosters and xp boosters are available from the store already and help with leveling quite a bit. crafting xp pots also available from house C vendor with first level favor.

I am not 100% opposed to selling collectibles in the store but my fear is it becomes like tomes that almost never drop in game and are available in the store. For cannith crafting up to 150 I avoided using rare ingredients for leveling and instead saved those for when I needed to make the item (example large devil scales for greater outsider evil bane). I assume the new system will be the same way so that you can find a leveling path that doesn't involve super rare ingredients but to make a good item it might require a rare ingredient.

While some of the stats won't match top tier random loot, in general I think it allows us to make some really great items that would be hard to get as random loot with exactly the things we need - so that is the trade off with the new system. So if you are a DC caster and want to max out DC you will need +8 focus item, +4 insightful focus item, +17 stat item. All extremely rare to get and not craftable - I am ok with that. You can craft +6, +3 insightful and +15 stats still for twink gear.

I don't think he meant as in no grind, but as in there shouldn't be a bunch of random steps added. It's not challenging to run from one station to the next, whoops lets go buy 1k decon materials because you forgot then run to the next station in the chain. It was always very poorly laid out. IMO, if you want a plat dump off of CC, then just charge a plat cost for deconning the items. There was never a need for 4 different stations and a vendor to begin with, it was all waste. It didn't add challenge to the game to run between stations and vendors. Everything should have been done off of one station, without unnecessary steps added just because.

[slarden]

I don't think he meant as in no grind, but as in there shouldn't be a bunch of random steps added. It's not challenging to run from one station to the next, whoops lets go buy 1k decon materials because you forgot then run to the next station in the chain. It was always very poorly laid out. IMO, if you want a plat dump off of CC, then just charge a plat cost for deconning the items. There was never a need for 4 different stations and a vendor to begin with, it was all waste. It didn't add challenge to the game to run between stations and vendors. Everything should have been done off of one station, without unnecessary steps added just because.

We may be interpreting the words differently. I think some of his points are valid, but I am ok with some scarcity and rare ingredients.

It should be fairly easy to get the ingredients in large enough quantities that GRINDING is NOT required. It should come as a surprise if you go to craft something and you actually DON'T have an ingredient already (assuming you deconstruct and make a reasonable effort to hit the collectibles in dungeons).

[DYWYPI]

Since Flexible shards are unlikely to appear in the "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" system dynamic, and it appears (without further feedback from a Turbine Representative) we'll be mostly following posts ([#1], [#2], and [#3] respectively). By referencing, DDO Wiki: U29 randomly generated loot Enchantments by slot.

NoWorries, can you explain why; New Random Loot, 'Bartered', only seems to appear on headwear; since the word "Bartered" actually means; exchange and trade services, etc. (without the use of money).

That's rather strange since; DDO Haggle, I'd suspect is usually carried out with Vendors, e.g. the Marketplace, Brokers and Pawn shops, and the player gains Platinum pieces from selling, etc.

Thus that suggests, you plan to use 'Bartered' items, for within quest for: Haggle as a skills checks. For example: http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Mask_of_Deception which last time I checked required the "Dragon Mask" to be worn... on your head slot, the [Cultist Dragon Mask] is not cosmetic.

That pretty much means for that quest your Character wouldn't be able to wear a 'Bartered' [Dunce cap] to boost 'Haggle' to complete the "Bar Optional"... Of course, its a Haggle, with a roll, in that quest but you get the gist.

Even without allowing 'Flexible shards' the new Random Loot looks far too short-sighted (assuming that DDO Wiki page is loosely correct?).

Unsurprisingly you have hinted 'Eberron Dragonshards' will reappear as Cannith Crafting raw ingredients. The problem; isn't so much their rarity but the fact is, they tend to be used in several very good Trade-in options with 'Collector NPCs', which of course inflates their value on the Auction House even more...

However in contrast: Siberys Dragonshards; Flawed, Imperfect and Exceptional seem underutilised in Cannith Crafting. They're not in huge demand, so I suspect would be apt for "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" instead of extensive use of 'Eberron Dragonshards'.

Of course, if the "purposely leaked information", about [25] new Collectibles contain additional (previously unseen in DDO) Collectables of course Collectable Bags are going to be put under further strain.

Concerning Collectable Bags and Ingredient Bags, you mentioned "Cannith Essences" would stack to 10,000 though obviously that cannot happen within most Ingredient Bags! Neither would the "free as in beer" [F2P] Collectable bags contain all the current Cannith Collectables, let alone the new ones you envisage - the maths just doesn't work out...

[Aelonwy]

However in contrast: Siberys Dragonshards; Flawed, Imperfect and Exceptional seem underutilised in Cannith Crafting. They're not in huge demand, so I suspect would be apt for "NoWorries Cannith Crafting" instead of extensive use of 'Eberron Dragonshards'.

Of course, if the "purposely leaked information", about [25] new Collectibles contain additional (previously unseen in DDO) Collectables of course Collectable Bags are going to be put under further strain.

Concerning Collectable Bags and Ingredient Bags, you mentioned "Cannith Essences" would stack to 10,000 though obviously that cannot happen within most Ingredient Bags! Neither would the "free as in beer" [F2P] Collectable bags contain all the current Cannith Collectables, let alone the new ones you envisage - the maths just doesn't work out...

Good points.

I do think the NEW essence question has largely been answered, somewhere it was stated that we would be manually exchanging old essences of various types and amounts into the NEW essences. I think the quote may be in the previous thread; I'll try to go searching for it later. The idea, I think, is that we will be able to convert as needed so that our ingredient bags do not explode. However, that does bring up the issue of all the people that invested in BTC gargantuan store ingredient bags may now have to turn around and invest in BTC store collectible bags because the load is shifting. I do not complain about store-bought bags being larger, carrying more and larger stacks of items, but I will always complain about inconvenience and it is inconvenient indeed that store-bought bags are BTC. Because of this restriction I have only ever bought 2 store bags, and the cookie jar. Had they been BTA I might have bought 3x as many.

[Aelonwy]

Thank you No Worries for each response. Even if its not what we want to hear, its great to have the continued discourse.

Further questions:

• Will banishing/smiting/disruption be returning to the random loot tables?
• Will ammo & runestones remain in Cannith Crafting? (Apologies if this was answered somewhere before)
• Can we please have the bound recipe crafted items made BTA instead of BTC? Inventory is already an issue in this game, let's not compound it.
• Why is Speed so important to have random only? If we cannot craft Speed may we at least have the full 30% Striding?

Somewhere someone (apologies to creative person) suggested a system by which we could use gems to craft augment slots onto crafting blanks (at least) did anyone at Turbine read this idea? Was it too far beyond the scope of possibility?

And would it be possible to allow any stat (Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Char) to be generated on rings in the New Random Loot tables thus opening that avenue of flexibility in the New Cannith Crafting?

[DarigTheLost]

favour run 5000, +5 stat tome BTC. there is currently no use for this, the +2 tome BTC favour run can be traded in for Purified Eberron Dragonshard Essences which can be used for crafting. Please hace something semi useful included for the +5 stat tomes as well.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I do not complain about store-bought bags being larger, carrying more and larger stacks of items, but I will always complain about inconvenience and it is inconvenient indeed that store-bought bags are BTC. Because of this restriction I have only ever bought 2 store bags, and the cookie jar. Had they been BTA I might have bought 3x as many.

Yes, this. I've bought exactly TWO store bought bags - a Colossal Ingredients Bag and a Colossal Augment Bag. Both are on my crafter on my main server, and both were purchased during a 50% sale a few years ago. I have maintained for years that if they were BtA, I would've bought a lot more over the years (at least 1 ing and 1 collectible bag on three servers, and possibly a second of each on my main server), and I would've probably done that at just a 10-20% sale. So that's 7-9 bags (counting the augment bag) at 20% off, vs. 2 bags at 50% off. Yep, they're making money off this decision!

(I've also bought several hireling folders when they were on sale just because of the panther and owlbears, and it annoys me that they're never on sale with other bags because I've got a couple of new characters I'd love to get them on... but I refuse because I keep thinking they *will* go on sale at some point... but I digress).

[Saekee]

I did not read all the above posts.
1) deathblock?
2) have Cannith favor reward include portable decon device but that gives only 50% value
3) I vote also to please keep flex shards somehow or in some lesser form

[bsquishwizzy]

After a lot of thought, I'm all with the group that flexible shards being tossed out the window is idiotic. if done correctly, it will not undo the desire for named items.

The problem is that you've given crafters the option to make very potent, but limited items based on your pre-designated level for various attributes (of you have a lvl 13 item, it will have X for a value on some attribute), and removed flexibility. And the one thing I think that is lost on the Devs is the following concept:

THE WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT TO CANNITH CRAFTING IN THE FIRST PLACE IS FRICKIN' FLEXIBILITY!!!!!

Not power.

Not shinies.

Flexibility. F-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-I-t-y.

Please try to understand this. I can do random loot all day and find / use an item with 1 good attribute on it, and a secondary attribute that I think sucks. I don't need to waste time crafting that. Duh.

Thanks for listening.

[SisAmethyst]

favour run 5000, +5 stat tome BTC. there is currently no use for this, the +2 tome BTC favour run can be traded in for Purified Eberron Dragonshard Essences which can be used for crafting. Please hace something semi useful included for the +5 stat tomes as well.

Hmm, I am actually not sure how many players actually got the 5000 favor, already considering that probably the majority of players is F2P and/or running in the TR wheel. So the more likely place to get a +5 Tome is from a Raid and I woudln't wan't to see those be part as an ingredient.

Do I would like to bring my BtC stat Tomes that I can't use to any purpose? Sure, but then not as a rare ingredient but independent from crafting. For example that you can get a blank BtA Tome and you can transfer your BtC Tome over to it by losing one level. So a +5 BtC Dex Tome would be consumed and create with a +4 BtA Dex Tome. If this is considered to powerful make it 1/3 chance a +4 and 2/3 chance a +3 BtA Tome for example. This way you could at least pass it to an alt and still keep the incentive to pass it for roll to someone else in the group as is if you happen to get one in a chest and not need it.

[Ulfo]

How did you make this?

Simple. Add one shard to blank item, next - second, next - third. If I remember order correct - Mobility, Protection from Poison and Stability.

So, when devs say about "no more affix and prefix shard" I'm think they just use currently existed in game code.

[Ulfo]

AFAIK, it's a bug that's bordering on exploit. If not an outright exploit, since you're only supposed to have prefix, suffix, and (on weapons/armor) enhancement bonus, and not three effects. So don't expect much of an answer.

Your IK wrong. 8)
No such bug present in official bug list and no one devs say it's exploit. Of course, you can anytime give link to this issue from devs if I'm wrong and you - right. You can? 8)

[RD2play]

Hmm, I am actually not sure how many players actually got the 5000 favor, already considering that probably the majority of players is F2P and/or running in the TR wheel. So the more likely place to get a +5 Tome is from a Raid and I woudln't wan't to see those be part as an ingredient.

Do I would like to bring my BtC stat Tomes that I can't use to any purpose? Sure, but then not as a rare ingredient but independent from crafting. For example that you can get a blank BtA Tome and you can transfer your BtC Tome over to it by losing one level. So a +5 BtC Dex Tome would be consumed and create with a +4 BtA Dex Tome. If this is considered to powerful make it 1/3 chance a +4 and 2/3 chance a +3 BtA Tome for example. This way you could at least pass it to an alt and still keep the incentive to pass it for roll to someone else in the group as is if you happen to get one in a chest and not need it.

The mechanic to trade tomes for Ebberon Dragon Shards is already in the game, all we are asking for is to be able to trade higher level (btc) stat and skill tomes also. Right now they are just wasted space, and it is lame to drag and destroy an Item just because it is of no use to your char, the turn in for Ebberon shards at least gives you something.

[slarden]

The mechanic to trade tomes for Ebberon Dragon Shards is already in the game, all we are asking for is to be able to trade higher level (btc) stat and skill tomes also. Right now they are just wasted space, and it is lame to drag and destroy an Item just because it is of no use to your char, the turn in for Ebberon shards at least gives you something.

Agreed I still have btc +3 tomes from shroud and tod 20th rewards back in the day when they didn't carry over to a TR so I didn't want to use them.

[slarden]

After a lot of thought, I'm all with the group that flexible shards being tossed out the window is idiotic. if done correctly, it will not undo the desire for named items.

The problem is that you've given crafters the option to make very potent, but limited items based on your pre-designated level for various attributes (of you have a lvl 13 item, it will have X for a value on some attribute), and removed flexibility. And the one thing I think that is lost on the Devs is the following concept:

THE WHOLE FRICKIN' POINT TO CANNITH CRAFTING IN THE FIRST PLACE IS FRICKIN' FLEXIBILITY!!!!!

Not power.

Not shinies.

Flexibility. F-l-e-x-i-b-i-l-I-t-y.

Please try to understand this. I can do random loot all day and find / use an item with 1 good attribute on it, and a secondary attribute that I think sucks. I don't need to waste time crafting that. Duh.

Thanks for listening.

It already provides flexibility since the odds of a getting a random loot item with 3 things slotted you want plus an augment slot is extremely rare, but you can make with the new system.

I am more concerned the max level is 34 compared to 40 for random loot. I think it shoul be more like 36-37 instead a notch below random loot but not 2 notches below, but since the various loot levels mean nothing to me without knowing what the #s are by level it's hard to say.

[bsquishwizzy]

It already provides flexibility since the odds of a getting a random loot item with 3 things slotted you want plus an augment slot is extremely rare, but you can make with the new system.

I am more concerned the max level is 34 compared to 40 for random loot. I think it shoul be more like 36-37 instead a notch below random loot but not 2 notches below, but since the various loot levels mean nothing to me without knowing what the #s are by level it's hard to say.

If you get three slots, and can only slot 1 attribute you want, and 2 you don't want, then it is no different than being limited to having 2 slots. Because if it's useless, it doesn't get better if you add the option to pile more useless on top of it.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Your IK wrong. 8)
No such bug present in official bug list and no one devs say it's exploit. Of course, you can anytime give link to this issue from devs if I'm wrong and you - right. You can? 8)

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong *shrug* However, these points don't being wrong prove. The "known" bugs list is hopelessly out of sorts with actual known bugs (and, indeed, exists more as a place to tell us what bugs no longer need reporting because they either already have enough examples to know what's causing it, or just plain don't plan to fix them, rather than as a list of all the bugs known to be in the game). And no dev will ever say "Yeah, no, that's an exploit." They'll simply delete posts explaining them and move on. The MIGHT say "So this hotfix we did today was to fix an exploit" but that's about the limit I've ever seen.

Whether it's officially a bug or an exploit or neither of the above, however, putting 3 affixes on a shard is not WAI. You know how I know? Because they've clearly stated that in the current system, it's supposed to be a prefix, a suffix, and (on weapons and armor) an enhancement bonus. And I really don't care enough to go looking for the posts to prove it, but if you'd like to find posts that prove me wrong and that having 3 affixes is WAI, be my guest.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

If you get three slots, and can only slot 1 attribute you want, and 2 you don't want, then it is no different than being limited to having 2 slots. Because if it's useless, it doesn't get better if you add the option to pile more useless on top of it.

And that... kinda proves his point for him? Crafting is more flexible because you're guaranteed to be able to make what you want (at least within the limits of the slotting), rather than finding an item that has, say, CON, featherfall, and insightful disable device on your pure monk with slowfall active. And if you don't want the third slot... well, guess what, you save on a Mark of Cannith.

Yes, flexible shards would make it MORE flexible. But it's already better than lootgen unless you get extremely lucky.

[bls904c2]

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong *shrug* However, these points don't being wrong prove.
......
And I really don't care enough to go looking for the posts to prove it, but if you'd like to find posts that prove me wrong and that having 3 affixes is WAI, be my guest.

1 page talks about how to put on the third effect kind of confusing, but

Old Cannith Crafting went to level 20, only had 2 effects, and didn't have insightful.

If you are maxed, you switch over on day 1 to crafting ML 26, being able to put 3 effects on, and to have Insightful effects. Players gain power just from the change. Also, with this system, any effect you can craft is useful, as it autoscales with ML (or for non-scaling effects, it is the max it can be). So yes, you will be crafting useful things.

here is the quote 3 effects are WAI