Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[vms4ever]

What?! I was expecting 1-5 new collectables, not 25. This is going too far. Unless the crafting storage bank space is going to be fixed, so everything stacks beyond 99, and/or bags retroactively get larger to hold more & stack more mats, this is a big issue. Where are we supposed to collect 25 new collectables? Every one of my characters (7 of them) have at least a small and medium collectable bag filled to the max. They contain no Event collectables, no collectables used in Cannith Crafting, no collectable used for Stone of Change rituals, no Mysterious Remnants, no anything other than randomly collected collectables. Forty-two spaces to contain the 64 existing collectables that do nothing other than get traded to Collectors for augments and such. That's on top of 207 of my 262 Crafting Storage space that's filled (I had to throw away useful collectables because they were taking up too much space.)

Public Service Announcement: 150 planar shards from the subterrane can be traded for a large collectables bag (80 items, stack size 1000). Huge collectables bags are available from the DDO store (waiting for a sale is recommended), 200 items, stack size 100.

The planar shards are bound but the large bags are not bound at all and can be sold and traded between players. I don't think any of my non-bank toons are using medium bags anymore. (I know none are using small bags.)

[JoyfulEagle]

No, I disagree. A minimal level shard can be used for any number of enchants. An enchant can be used for any level. What I end up with inside my gargantuan ingredient bag is far more useful in the end than all the potpourri that's currently in my bag.

A grind is a grind when it comes to crafting. It's not like multiple adventures. It's hitting a button repeatedly. And hitting a blue button instead of a green one will not make the CC grind any more "fun".

The idea with CC is that you gain the mats through regular adventuring. Also the in game store and AH SE are options. Believe me, someone will grind them for you is you have the shards.

I am really looking forward to the new CC.

I am also looking forward to the new CC. However, I am concerned that the ability to level up, for a range of levels at 20, 70, 120, 170, 220, 270, 320, and 370, will not be sufficiently tested by the community. Imagine that you needed 30 lightning-split soarwood to continue leveling up (and everyone else trying to make the same levels needed them too). That would put a big hurt on. If Lamania allows you to quick buy them, then people wouldn't know how hard they are to come by. That is a big risk.

I am not suggesting that we eliminate the need to gather collectables. I think it separates the casual crafters from the serious ones. I am OK with that. But, I don't want to be stuck with needing a single collectable that I just can't seem to get, in order to continue leveling.

[Cantor]

Some people have said that there shouldn't be collectibles that only come from certain packs. I think there is no reason not to, why shouldn't certain shards be gated by having a pack just like certain named items are? Seems reasonable to me maybe even preferable, might mean that you could farm a certain area if you need a certain ingredient.

[dunklezhan]

NoWorries, can you explain what you mean by "an additional 25 collectables" I presume you are referring to Cannith Crafting Collectables only and dropping/appearing at Epic Level quests?

Furthermore unless I've completely misunderstood that; you don't mean you are creating another 25 Completely New collectables. I'd presume you are creating maybe; 5 or 6 completely new Collectables. Plus recycling some Cannith Collectables as per: http://ddowiki.com/page/Crafting_Collectables

Now, if you are planning on introducing those additional Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) that would only appear in VIP Adventure Packs. Then that obviously supports discrimination against the F2P players and creates an unlevel crafting-field.

My interpretation is that there will be tiers of collectibles and just like now certain collectibles are more likely to drop from certain collectible spot types (e.g. bookcases drop more of certain kinds of items than others, and may not drop any of a certain kind of item). If they weren't level gated already (and from No Worries' post I think they must be) then they will be from now on but beyond that I am pretty sure that specific collectibles are linked to the collectible spot type, not the collectible spot itself.

Of the new collectibles and tiers, if they say they're doing 25 new ones then they are. Sure, they might be weaksauce variants like 'epic glittering dust', but they'll be new. Half of the first new tier will be existing ingredients that probably come from the old epic packs, and the remaining will just represent the collectibles that might drop frmo a particular spot type when encountered in that range.

In this way, a bookshelf at L1 will drop different things to a bookshelf at L25, but equally that L1 bookshelf will drop different things to a L1 pile of moss.

So yes, if they only put a particular collectible spot type in a particular paid for adventure pack then it is gated by pack too, although no more so than named items, and I can't say that I've ever noticed them doing that to up now.

It seems far more likely that L25 bookshelves (or whatever) will be spread reasonably liberally throughout L25 content, and some will likely end up in F2P quests, if there are any at that level.

If we do find particular collectibles only collectible spots in certain quests (and not only as end rewards as we see now for rare CC ingredients) then I agree that's a Bad Thing and I Do Not Want.

However, if that happens, it more likely to happen by accident if you ask me - it just seems too much for them to reasonably keep track of and also increased risk of bugs. I can't imagine they don't see that.

On the other hand... the "bean counter" element has massively disappointed me before.

[Ebondevil]

So yes, if they only put a particular collectible spot type in a particular paid for adventure pack then it is gated by pack too, although no more so than named items, and I can't say that I've ever noticed them doing that to up now.

I believe there's a certain set of collectibles that currently only drop in Tangleroot and related quests, but primarily in the Explorer area, which aren't F2P, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[Marupal]

Flex shards are going to be missed but it's better if crafting augments random loot, instead of outright competing and overpowering. Especially if Cannith is going to allow 3 affixes on it. Nice!

Liking the "one school, one essence" bit. Better clarity and consolidation.

Having the ML of the item tied to the crafting level. Excellent change.

Armor in the low and mid heroics only have limited options. Is this going to be padded out with Cannith a bit? Even if it means tossing in dragonscales or soverign runes to make a decent ML 10 armor? (just an example)

Shards of Potential gone? /happydance! Crafting should be a bit of a time sink but something about having to stop to make a shard of potential killed it. Cleaning outhouses in house K would have been about as much fun.

Are the xp penalties for repeatedly building the same shard still going to be there? Feel kinda helpless watching that kick in under the current system.

Scaling effects. Thank! You!

Any chance of adding some unique proc effects to Cannith crafting? (besides fearsome). Something theme appropriate? Cannith has a unique enough feel to it, plenty of room to let the imagination run with what you could do.

Ranged ammunition from Cannith crafting: please make it cost effective, maybe even trivial to make. Currently I look at it and walk away "why bother?"

...
3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..

A very cool idea!

[SisAmethyst]

Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.
...

Are there any plans to use existing things other then collectibles like gems gatherd from the trap soul spell, at least as an alternative recipe to give them actually some use?

[JoyfulEagle]

Some people have said that there shouldn't be collectibles that only come from certain packs. I think there is no reason not to, why shouldn't certain shards be gated by having a pack just like certain named items are? Seems reasonable to me maybe even preferable, might mean that you could farm a certain area if you need a certain ingredient.

You can't get Marks of Cannith without the Cannith pack. I think your point is assumed already. But, just in case you thought that was the point I was making earlier, it was not. Some collectables are harder to come by than others, even if you are VIP and have the expantions.

[DYWYPI]

I was also considering those current 6 BtA Cannith Collectables, and several Ingredients only available from Adventure Packs.

F2P can actually get 'Mark of House Cannith' without 'Secrets of the Artificers' but you have to get 50 Cannith Favour, which would need you [F2P] to successfully complete at least some Cannith Challenges - not always easy.

Since it was raised there are only 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests: '3 Web of Chaos quests' (Aka LoD), A Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge and The Mask of Deception. Plus the 3 Legendary 'U31 Gnomework' quests and Legendary Tempest's Spine (Raid).

Yes, Dunklezhan Collectable source is the type of thing I'd expect. Albeit amongst the first 3 threads NoWorries on several occasions uses double-negatives to explain things... So I'm not fully sure if that meant; he was creating [25] extra brand-spanking-new, i.e. never seen in DDO before collectables, or also (re)using current collectables from elsewhere in the current game, e.g. Vial of Contagion (to use as a new additional NoWorries Cannith Collectable), etc. I suspect a combination of both.

[Gratch]

You can't get Marks of Cannith without the Cannith pack.

Unbound Marks of House Cannith drop in treasure across quest levels I believe (though mostly in mid level heroics), similar to Portable Hole drop rate. You can find them on the AH sometimes. I think I've personally seen Unbounds in the 5-10 range for myself since they were added to the game with house C. I always put them on the AH.

[Zistra]

Flexibility: As long as every stat/effect has a minimum of 3 slots it can go in, I think we're covered for build flexibility around named items. Any that don't already should be available on rings. I'd say that's a minimum goal. Means you can work around two named items in the slots for a particular effect, but a third will limit your choices. Alternatively, adding "Flexibility" as one of the three effects allows for the build diversity some request, while trading that flexibility for a suitable amount of another flexibility or power: the third effect.

ML Shards: It would be nice if we could replace the ML shard on an item with a new one without starting over, even if the cost in mats was high. It would allow us to decide whether it's in our interest to have one +Str item and re-level it from time to time, or to devote the storage space to a range of them.

Other flexibility: Why stick with prefixes and suffixes? Why not let one of the advantages of Cannith Crafting be that you could craft two "suffix" effects on the same item? It fits with your "simplification" goal, and with no difference in essences associated, one of the logical justifications for the distinction is at least weakened. One of the most complex things about CC for newbies is understanding what's a prefix, what's a suffix, and why they can't go together on the same item. Get rid of this! This one change would guarantee CC would never be invalidated by random loot... some combinations would only be possible in CC items. Pretty sure that wouldn't make CC OP compared to the other systems.

Storage issues: This system trades freeing up some space in Ingredient bags for using additional space in Collectibles bags. Will bag sizes change to reflect this? Have you studied the effects on people's actual storage use? For me, it will be trivial: I have the bag storage in the bank. That's not true of everyone. On the other storage issue side, while the variety of items that go in Ingredient bags will go down, the singular crafting essence will now be desired in much higher quantities: on a straight trade, the 20 or so existing essences at a stacking quantity of 1000 ea. would become one stack of 20,000. Existing bags won't support that change. Will we be allowed multiple stacks? Or how will this be handled?

Collectibles: If Cannith Crafting is not intended to be a P2W perk, it will be important that all collectibles are available in at least one F2P area or acquisition method.

[SisAmethyst]

...At some point (and not really that long, with the insane grinders that populate any MMO), many people will be able to craft at the top level. If crafting is as good as random, then there will be no point to random.

This logic can easily be turned upside down: "At some point everyone looted or bought from the AH all the uber random loot one desires and don't need to craft anymore" ... so I disagree

For themselves. Not for others because of the impossibility of making even the best effects of Cannith Crafting as unbound (its impossible to get a crafting level capable of it, as I understand it). For anyone who hasn't maxed out crafting - and plenty of people wont' because they'll hate it - random loot would still beat Cannith once they get into high epics. Even in heroics - ingredients have to be found, unless you can find a generous crafter...

Indeed and with all the collectibles, base items and special ingredient not to speak of the needed crafting XP and level there is already a huge border and limitation to overcome. Sure some people that are long in the game or exploited the early days got max crafting but for all new players getting upwards is a hard stoney way.

So indeed named and raid loot should always be better, but crafted items should already from the effort to do them be at least on par with random loot. As said, limit it to to effects if some would combinations would fall to strong then you would need to find that special blank with an augment slot to counter it.

[dunklezhan]

I believe there's a certain set of collectibles that currently only drop in Tangleroot and related quests, but primarily in the Explorer area, which aren't F2P, but they're the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

aren't they used in the pack NPC hand in though, rather than Cannith Crafting? I guess they're probably used in both. But that clearly wasn't a deliberate design choice in the placement of the collectibles, given how many years were inbetween that pack and CC. Heck, between that pack and F2P. When that pack came in it was a Sub-only game. It may well have been original content, I don't know, I started the week after F2P launched.

[dunklezhan]

Sure some people that are long in the game or exploited the early days got max crafting but for all new players getting upwards is a hard stoney way.

Heck I'm just now scrabbling for the last few levels of CC, and I got into it on day one. Of course, if I'd TR'd my artificer at some point in the last 2 years, I'd have spotted that he wasn't actually on max crafting and so I was stiffing myself of XP due to his bonus crafting levels.

Ah well, c'est la vie, neh?

[Ebondevil]

aren't they used in the pack NPC hand in though, rather than Cannith Crafting? I guess they're probably used in both. But that clearly wasn't a deliberate design choice in the placement of the collectibles, given how many years were inbetween that pack and CC. Heck, between that pack and F2P. When that pack came in it was a Sub-only game. It may well have been original content, I don't know, I started the week after F2P launched.

I believe the Lily petal is one that is used.

There's also the special End reward list collectible items which are almost exclusively from Paid content, the only exception being the Mystical bottle which can be gained from Hiding in Plain Sight. Personally the limited means of acquisition for those ingredients put me off making using them in the Current Crafting.

If something is that Rare I'll save it for when I absolutely need it, which generally means I never actually use it.

[azrael4h]

Unbound Marks of House Cannith drop in treasure across quest levels I believe (though mostly in mid level heroics), similar to Portable Hole drop rate. You can find them on the AH sometimes. I think I've personally seen Unbounds in the 5-10 range for myself since they were added to the game with house C. I always put them on the AH.

I can confirm this as well. I always kept them, even though I never used old CC for anything but filling out low level gear during TRs, and lately, not even bothering to do that much any more.

I've seen far more Portable Holes though. I pulled two just in my latest TR. Maybe about 15 or so total. I've given a few away, but most stand ready to fill in until I can do Gianthold.

My thought on the new collectibles is that in all of the FR content, there aren't any. So most of the new stuff will likely come from that to account for the fact that they never had any to begin with.

[Ulfo]

Since it was raised there are only 10 F2P Epic [21+] standard quests: '3 Web of Chaos quests' (Aka LoD), A Study in Sable, Brothers of the Forge and The Mask of Deception. Plus the 3 Legendary 'U31 Gnomework' quests and Legendary Tempest's Spine (Raid).

Legendary HoX f2p too ( normal HoX - no, and it's very strange). 8)

I've seen far more Portable Holes though.

Confirmed. Fot last half-year i'm pickup about 10-12 Holes, and only 1 Mark.

[elvesunited]

If named items are supposed to provide flexibility while random and crafted loot will stick to specific slots then could we possibly get an improvement to older named items? Many of them are antiquated to the point of uselessness.

So the idea is to give crafting a major power upgrade to make up for its loss of flexibility. It will probably exceed 98% of random loot. I've gotten so many "Serene Plate armor of Move Silently" it hurts the brain. Almost all my decent random loot with more than 1 useful attribute I buy at auction. I get named loot at a higher rate than decent random loot.

But will people bother with crafting? The early levels look useless compared to single decent attibute random loot. The group 1 list looks like some incredibly weak improvements. ( Attributes are in group 3! ) Not even remotely competitive. Unless some exclusive effects are at a low level of crafting skills there is nothing of value until you reach significant skill ( after a ridiculous amount of grind ) If that's the case why would any player new to crafting get into it now?

But even existing crafters may be in for a grind with these new collectables. In worst case scenario we'll be running the same quest over and over again to get this rare collectable that drops with the frequency of a bound to account Large Sulfur Stone. ( In ultimate worst case: bound to character ) We're already playing the game, you don't need to do that to us.

But here's hoping my fears are unfounded. That I will be able to craft useful items without too much hassle and I won't miss existing crafting at all and that players new to crafting will be able to get something useful out of it early on to entice them into putting more effort into it.

[Hilltrot]

I am also looking forward to the new CC. However, I am concerned that the ability to level up, for a range of levels at 20, 70, 120, 170, 220, 270, 320, and 370, will not be sufficiently tested by the community. Imagine that you needed 30 lightning-split soarwood to continue leveling up (and everyone else trying to make the same levels needed them too). That would put a big hurt on. If Lamania allows you to quick buy them, then people wouldn't know how hard they are to come by. That is a big risk.

I am not suggesting that we eliminate the need to gather collectables. I think it separates the casual crafters from the serious ones. I am OK with that. But, I don't want to be stuck with needing a single collectable that I just can't seem to get, in order to continue leveling.

I will agree that rare collectibles should not be the requirement for leveling up, especially at the lower levels. I only have 9 lightning-split soarwood.

[Andu_Indorin]

All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.
Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence or 5 to 1 Lesser to new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.

As one who has deconstructed over 10,000 magic items, it is very good to see that lesser essences will "buy" the new essence. It reassuring that my time slaving over that "gnomish" device in House K and House C will not be entirely wasted.