Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[Uische]

Will the Crafting Planner [calculator] be adjusted to the new changes?
Will it be accurate?

It's located here:
http://perfectweb.org/ddo/crafting/base_crafting.php

[RD2play]

Flexible shards are a horrible idea.

1. Its probably the primary reason Cannith Crafting was gimp for as long as it's been.

You can't make Cannith crafting powerful! After all, it has flexible shards! That's where it has power!

Ugh ...

2. It goes against D&D lore.

If you're a PnP D&D enthusiast, you'd realize that flexible shards are like the brand new player demanding to be a Dragon Monk. They have no clue what the game is about. They don't want to really play. They have no clue about the background of D&D. And they just want to be the baddest player at the table.

3. It turns a thought process of sacrifices and other key character decisions into a Cannith Crafting grinding mission.

4. We have augments which still allow for this flexibility. Want a +int belt? Just find one with an augment or two.

Right now, the people who like this can add +6 int to a belt with a lot of stupid grinding and a complete lack of thought to itemization.

Right Now, I just added +10 int to a belt and am scratching my head as to why people want something as stupid as flexible shards.

5. There is still plenty of customization allowed. Limits are what makes a game fun.

1. CC is gimp because it never got updated when RGL got an update in the first place.
2. Going away from the jewelry/clothing/armor/weapons is already going away from D&D lore
3. The grind is optional
4. it is going to be maybe another year before augments will get an overhaul,
5. I agree, and IMO Flex does not have to mean "goes everywhere" but 2 more (logical) places for effects to go would be a good thing, frankly I find the current RGL to restrictive, and make little sense in some parts (trip on belts/gloves but not on boots?, ins str in 3 places but ins cha only on one , cloaks...). I have even opted to have Flex be at a lower power, so you can have your thing that fits into your set next to your raid and named gear, but if it is in an off-slot it will be a little less power. Also having items like Rings, and Trinkets be more "everything goes" could work.

Not all players have a lot of game time, like me, and I don't like using (my sometimes) one day in the week I can play to be used only to see if I can fit in a new item I pulled, and then spend hours tinkering and swapping gear around just to find out it just doesn't fit. This game has a lot of freedom when it come to building my character but then when it comes to gear all the sudden it has to be really restrictive, I just don't get that. I can settle for less power in favor of more flexibility and I can understand not everything should go anywhere, but come on it is a game and it should be fun, for me that means running the quests, not fitting out my char every 2/3 levels that takes a masters degree in gearing. So I am happy that flex is still on the table, albeit it not being in there at the launch of the new crafting. We will see how it pans out and I hope it will all be OK. But if not I will there with the others asking for some kind of Flex to be added!

[Aelonwy]

Everyone is crying about what this system can't do.

I swear I'm listening to some old geezers whining about how peanut butter with bacon mixed in is no longer sold in stores. Or how baked potatoes are better than microwaved potatoes.

I haven't seen seen so many people looking at the glass half-empty when just a second ago it was actually empty.

Some people can't live without 100% + fort. It's their security blanket. Seriously, you can add insightful Fort to Fort, if you really need to have your high fort at low levels. I don't have stockpiles of heavy fort items. If I really find the need for it, I get a blue gem. Otherwise, i just wait till I get higher level.

Blood knuckle's 25% fortification is seriously worthless.

"Ghostbane, Disruption, Banishing, Smiting"

Seriously?! I have more vorpal than I can carry, and you're complaining about these? Ghostbane use to not even exist.

"enchantments not displaying on item's name" Now you're arguing semantics.

When was the last time you actually talked to a new player except to tell them to look up what BYOH means?

Most of us are not arguing, or whining, or crying, or any other negative appellation with which you choose to characterize our opinions. As far as I was concerned we were having a reasonable, calm discourse about our ideas/opinions on the New Random loot and Cannith Crafting going forward.

And for your information I am a casual player in a family-mostly small guild, I have never once told anyone to BYOH or look it up. I have always explained to newer players whatever I can to help them including guiding them on tours to show them where the houses are located, where to buy bags and quivers, explaining patrons and favor rewards etc. and yes directing them to the wiki as the best source of information. Quite the opposite of being glass-half-empty I have enough hope that this game will continue for sometime to come that I have been purchasing content for my son to play on his account and hope to do the same for my daughter when I feel she's old enough to play.

[maddong]

Is +15 int level 34 or is +16? +6 insightful int? I guess it will be on Lamania now, but level 34 doesn't mean much too me since I don't see the level on my gear.

From my experience and info gathering:
Level 33 +15
Level 36 +16
Level 39 +17

I don't know about insight bonuses.

[zehnvhex]

Truth be told if they manage to fix the glitch that locks you out of putting items in the deconstructing bar until you close/reopen the crafting UI that alone would be worth it for me.

Deconstructing takes long enough as is, having it glitch out 3~5 times per session kills me deep where it hurts most.

[Hilltrot]

Please define what you mean by "go forward" then, because to many of us, the New Loot System was 2-steps backward. Does your forward = backward? Stuck in reverse gear?

No, it means forward. You're the one with nostalgia. I know it's a difficult word. Here's the definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nostalgia

Instead if being limited to 2 enchantments, new loot has multiple enchantments.

Although weapons now have suffixes you aren't use to on weapons, such as deadly and speed, their prefixes are more powerful.

Mithral!

I could go on, but there is so much more to the new loot than the old loot. And it's scalable for future content.

[Gremmlynn]

That's depends entirely on the cost of the highlevel items. They don't have to be as cheap and easy to find the ingredients for as they are currently.

Except they kind of do as the same costs apply to leveling within the system. Crafting will be pretty much DOA if progress is glacially slow and expensive.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

It looks like these lists aren't remotely complete, either due to effects being removed entirely without No Worries actually knowing about it (Smiting, Disruption, Banishing) or because the effect is generally not notable except against Beholders. And a lot of players use Spell Absorption items there where ever possible.

But, most people keep on assuming those lists that are posted are the definitive final effects, and all, nothing else, that we're going to be able to craft. So, not the case.

Also, have to put my 2 cents in for flexible shards. Now that you've stated your stance on the issue, I can say, why, again? Flexible shards actually help you keep named items, and other items that aren't crafted, on your body. I don't know how many times I've had to craft something just because I had some named item I didn't want to take off, or an awesome, old world good sensed random loot, item I didn't want to take off. However, that was the slot that X was slated to go into, so I had to flexible shard something onto one of the 2 or 3 slots it opened up for me. Not anything anywhere you want, that's not how flexible shards work, don't make it into something that it isn't, that just stripped away all restrictions, because it doesn't. Flexible shards are good not just for CC, but for named items, and for other random loot items themselves. I think it's a poor decision, and to the person that said that flexible shards takes all of the thinking out of crafting gear; you are sadly mistaken! I've spent hours designing nearly complete sets of gear for toons; it's not as simple as "oh, I need spellpower for acid, I'll just put it on my goggles, because there are flexible shards for acid spellpower!", no, I still don't have that as an option; there are still limitations; it's only FLEXIBILITY, a style of flexibility that's greatly needed.

[Gremmlynn]

Truth be told if they manage to fix the glitch that locks you out of putting items in the deconstructing bar until you close/reopen the crafting UI that alone would be worth it for me.

Deconstructing takes long enough as is, having it glitch out 3~5 times per session kills me deep where it hurts most.

I wish I was you. I have to reopen it nearly every time. Makes me think the glitch might be in the game client or be a timeout issue.

[Gremmlynn]

But, most people keep on assuming those lists that are posted are the definitive final effects, and all, nothing else, that we're going to be able to craft. So, not the case.

Right. All that's listed for static effects are those that are either exclusive to Rangen or to CC, only shared scaled effects are listed. There really should be a list of shared static effects, even if it doesn't have their crafting level included, to give a better idea of what is or will be in the game.

[slarden]

Will all my old shards be destroyed for me, or will I have to destroy them myself, one-by one.

If the recipes disappear, the shards become worthless since they have no vend value.

At least for now you can crunch those into more essences. That is what I am going to do.

[ZhenBuYaoShi]

Flexible shards are a horrible idea.

1. Its probably the primary reason Cannith Crafting was gimp for as long as it's been.

You can't make Cannith crafting powerful! After all, it has flexible shards! That's where it has power!

Ugh ...

2. It goes against D&D lore.

If you're a PnP D&D enthusiast, you'd realize that flexible shards are like the brand new player demanding to be a Dragon Monk. They have no clue what the game is about. They don't want to really play. They have no clue about the background of D&D. And they just want to be the baddest player at the table.

3. It turns a thought process of sacrifices and other key character decisions into a Cannith Crafting grinding mission.

4. We have augments which still allow for this flexibility. Want a +int belt? Just find one with an augment or two.

Right now, the people who like this can add +6 int to a belt with a lot of stupid grinding and a complete lack of thought to itemization.

Right Now, I just added +10 int to a belt and am scratching my head as to why people want something as stupid as flexible shards.

5. There is still plenty of customization allowed. Limits are what makes a game fun.

Limits are what conservatives think make a game fun, that camp of thought does not hold true for all, but rules, rules I can live with. I have no need to reference this, as I already know it's true having used it upon my DM in campaigns he ran. In the 3.5 rules about what effects can go on what slots on the body, there is a flexibility clause, you actually have to read the entire section on making magic items, and not just look at the body diagram that shows the slots and attuned enchants for those slots. However, the rules state that if you pay it was either 1.5 or 2 times the cost in gold, you could get an unattuned enchant placed on a different body slot. It did go on to state that some things were simply incompatible, and it was up to the DM's discretion as to which effects could not possibly go on certain slots. But, this just goes to show that flexible item making was already part of DnD 3.5 PnP, and Flexible shards represented it perfectly. Taking it out, is actually removing yet another part of DnD that belongs in the game.

[Hilltrot]

Most of us are not arguing, or whining, or crying, or any other negative appellation with which you choose to characterize our opinions. As far as I was concerned we were having a reasonable, calm discourse about our ideas/opinions on the New Random loot and Cannith Crafting going forward.

Quotes

You are really KILLING one of the FUNDAMENTAL BEST THINGS about Cannith Crafting........FLEXIBILITY.

If the new random loot was coded in a way that doesn't allow you to make CC have flexible shards.......that is ANOTHER HUGE FAIL of the new loot.

If the coding for the new random loot does allow flexible shards, it is a HUGE FAIL for the design of cannith crafting.

Either way......fail.

looks calm to me.

HA HA you are going to base cannith crafting on random loot. O well then it going to be useless just like most of the random loot is. The only random loot items i use are those with states, all weapons are next to useless because it has caster stuff on it. All this hard work you are doing to make a system even more useless then it was before. Very very disappointed.

Reasonable - nothing but ideas how to move Cannith Crafting forward.

It is not just Flexible Shards, it is the fundamental way the Design of the New Loot System was implemented in the first place, to remove flexibility of more variety in the way Abilities and Skills could be found across the wider range of random loots. Cart vs horse issue, and the horse is New Loot System, and many of us find that horse to be "broken" regardless the semantics on whether it's WAI or not. The New Loot System is not agreed upon by the Player Community, and - arguments like yours are a bit skewed because many of us are "thinking about our gear" more than you realize (which in your test, would make it "good" instead). In fact, we're thinking so much about our gear that we come in here to see yet another post by a Dev without acknowledging this issue (while fielding softball questions otherwise), and that is something players like you should actually categorize as "bad." I highly suggest you stop worrying about the "thinking level" of the Player Community, as there's no XP for you in that.

Yep, nothing but ideas on how to move things forward.

ffs, people complain and whine for a change to the crafting system, and when they finally get something it's not good enough.

Judging from the whiny baby complaints in this thread, I'm surprised that any of the devs even take the time to say anything at all.

Oops, I wasn't the first to notice this trend.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your position and what you were trying to do. Looking back on it, my response to you about BYOH was in error.

However, I do contend that Fort is something only semi-experienced players start to worry about and for them there is still plenty of fort around.

[Hilltrot]

Limits are what conservatives think make a game fun, that camp of thought does not hold true for all, but rules, rules I can live with. I have no need to reference this, as I already know it's true having used it upon my DM in campaigns he ran. In the 3.5 rules about what effects can go on what slots on the body, there is a flexibility clause, you actually have to read the entire section on making magic items, and not just look at the body diagram that shows the slots and attuned enchants for those slots. However, the rules state that if you pay it was either 1.5 or 2 times the cost in gold, you could get an unattuned enchant placed on a different body slot. It did go on to state that some things were simply incompatible, and it was up to the DM's discretion as to which effects could not possibly go on certain slots. But, this just goes to show that flexible item making was already part of DnD 3.5 PnP, and Flexible shards represented it perfectly. Taking it out, is actually removing yet another part of DnD that belongs in the game.

I have revised my thinking.

Yes, I can be convinced and change my mind.

I think leaving it out for now is still good. But I won't come to the forums and complain if they later decide to add it back in after many of the kinks in the system are ironed out.

[Silverleafeon]

Latest read thru, overall, looking good to me.
Better understanding, and I like the idea that I can attempt crafting 430 level stuff with a chance for error.


I appreciate concern on this point:

Deconstructing is very time consuming and clunky at this point in time. We know this. The problem is what the crafting system is capable of doing. We don't know to what amount we can alleviate this pain, but it is something we will be looking into as we move forward with updating Cannith Crafting.

Really tired of the sounds by now, so don't really need sounds or flashes.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

My Last Post here on this current Crafting Thread (the 3rd or 4th since concept introduction), and I'm sure some of you are happy to see me shut down upon this one...

My going assessment of this New Cannith Crafting:

- It is Dead On Arrival (DOA) in its current format.
- There is too much grind for too little reward.
- Level-ups to make new crafting statistically viable has increased to the point that new-to-game players will shun it in contrast to Random and Named Loots over time.
- Flexibility is being shunned without any logical argument, nor formal acknowledgement by the Game Developers and Executive Producer that the New Loot System botched this all up in the first place.
- If you're playing Troll on the Bridge against Flexibility because you think you'll make more Turbine Point revenue for components of the new crafting system, both you and/or your bean counters will be sadly mistaken in future review of manhours expended on this update vs revenue realized.
- I am finding many Guild members to be of similar opinion, and this is not isolated to just myself, and the trend is that Flexibility is a make/break in the decision to even attempt to learn this new crafting system and start/restart the crafting grind.
- Frankly, you're wasting your time on this update, refer to the first comment about DOA.

[Dandonk]

Except they kind of do as the same costs apply to leveling within the system. Crafting will be pretty much DOA if progress is glacially slow and expensive.

Not if we're talking the endgame recipes. It won't be hard to make the system so that you level up to it, and then - when you are capped - you start on these special recipes.

[Nascoe]

My Last Post here on this current Crafting Thread (the 3rd or 4th since concept introduction), and I'm sure some of you are happy to see me shut down upon this one...

My going assessment of this New Cannith Crafting:

- It is Dead On Arrival (DOA) in its current format.
- There is too much grind for too little reward.
- Level-ups to make new crafting statistically viable has increased to the point that new-to-game players will shun it in contrast to Random and Named Loots over time.
- Flexibility is being shunned without any logical argument, nor formal acknowledgement by the Game Developers and Executive Producer that the New Loot System botched this all up in the first place.
- If you're playing Troll on the Bridge against Flexibility because you think you'll make more Turbine Point revenue for components of the new crafting system, both you and/or your bean counters will be sadly mistaken in future review of manhours expended on this update vs revenue realized.
- I am finding many Guild members to be of similar opinion, and this is not isolated to just myself, and the trend is that Flexibility is a make/break in the decision to even attempt to learn this new crafting system and start/restart the crafting grind.
- Frankly, you're wasting your time on this update, refer to the first comment about DOA.

Exactly, good to take a break from the discussion if you are looking at it like that already.

The first 3 points are pretty much conjecture. We do not know exactly how powerfull items will be compared to random loot. We don't have any experience of how hard leveling up will be, nor do we therefore have the abality to give a good evaluation of the level of grind involved with it. After the first lamannia run we might get a better feeling for the grind level as well as the actual power. But I do think that being able to create the combination we want on an item, AND have it at the top end of the range for that effect will be a solid plus. It will be far easier to plan for, and the CC items will be more powerfull than most loot we find because of it, while leaving a potential for that rare find.

As for the Flexible shards, I think the argument NoWorries gave in his post to start this latest discussion, are decent. They want to start without it and see how everything works before deciding whether to put in the work on the flex shards. That could be either because of avoiding extra bugs for now, about resources available as well as actually seeing whether ppl feel it is needed all that much.

Overall, I must say that I have been starting to work on my crafting levels again recently because the system will be updated and will get closer to current random loot levels. I just hope that everything will work and will be incredibly glad of not having to close and re-open the deconstruction window for every other item anymore!

[Arkai]

I just saw speed is out of the system, but, what about the old fashioned melee and ranged alacrity recipes?

Are they out?

[Stoner81]

I just saw speed is out of the system, but, what about the old fashioned melee and ranged alacrity recipes?

Are they out?

Both types of Alactrity are in Group 3.

Stoner81.