Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[Gremmlynn]

This is one of those times where people on here actually changed my mind. Going into this, I didn't think CC should be more powerful that Random Gen, but now I do. Look, if you want the system to be a success then give it SOMETHING to stand out. I see no reason it shouldn't be better than random loot. This could give us a new economy. Don't mess this up Turbine.

IF you give people a big reason to use CC, then this will be a huge success and people will partake in it. Accumulating random loot takes nothing but running quests on the easiest difficulty. Everyone can do that. Everyone can farm a quest on casual. Give the people that make the effort to actually be crafters something worth the grind.

Imagine an actual economy where people buy and sell essence. Imagine an actual economy where people craft things and sell them on the auction houses.

Why would you want to kill this idea by creating something totally meh?

An astral shard economy maybe.

But any chance of a widespread plat economy is pretty dead due to the ease of getting plat at higher levels and the inherent caps in place (character and AH).

Even at my slow ass pace, making half a million plat over a weekend just from vendor trashing what I loot out of epic quests is about the norm. That's ~1/8th the character cap as a side effect of general playing over a weekend. Actually farming would be better. How can any sort of trade economy ever compete with that? What sort of prices would need be set to make it even worth the effort to deal with the AH UI?

[Gremmlynn]

I do think we have to be careful when talking about grind here. When I finally decided to max my crafting, I maxed everything in a day. Seriously. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying because of crafting lag, but it wasn't really what I consider a grind. Of the annoying loot-centric grinds in the game, maxing crafting took the least time.

For me it was something I accomplished over ~3 years of, what I would consider, very light grind when things were slow in game otherwise. So, I agree, it doesn't really require one to grind, as I understand the term.

[Aletys]

I do think we have to be careful when talking about grind here. When I finally decided to max my crafting, I maxed everything in a day. Seriously. It was incredibly frustrating and annoying because of crafting lag, but it wasn't really what I consider a grind. Of the annoying loot-centric grinds in the game, maxing crafting took the least time.

But you've probably been collecting the mats for years (I'm assuming that, or you wouldn't have been able to do it). I had been playing the game just a few months when I started crafting. I hadn't been keeping the mats because I hadn't planned to do any crafting. It took me nearly 2 years of deconning every single item I got, keeping all the essences & collectibles I picked up, buying mats off the AH when I could afford it, & making shards whenever I had enough mats to do so, in order to get to close to cap.

I know many players who simply toss their essences because they don't want to clutter their inventory/bank with bags full of something they don't have a use for. For anyone who doesn't have a ton of mats already, it's going to be a real grind.

Also, because they're introducing new collectibles for many of the recipes, we may still be grinding the quests to get the mats, even if we've got a ton of the existing mats.

[Ebondevil]

I have to disagree. It adds rarity to the top end items. If Crafting allowed the same "ML 40" cap, pretty much all ML 30 gear would be ML40 in power. Even as proposed, it pretty much all will be ML34 in power.

The way I personally play I doubt I'll see ML 40 items, and I have little interest in ML 30+ items as I only sit at level cap just long enough to get the seeds to ETR. (Even getting to that point takes me a while as I can barely muster the effort to grind through one epic quest a day as things stand)

I'm more concerned about the effects that aren't being included at all in a misguided attempt to make Random loot seem more desirable.

I would however much rather see a system where we can directly craft up to ML 30, and then after that include the possibility to upgrade that crafted loot to ML 40 making the items a larger investment.

Having the possibility of upgrading from ML 1 all the way to ML 40 would be nice as well of course.

Regardless, the 31-40 stages should be possible, but that doesn't mean they should be easy.



Other options which could be interesting would be to have crafting shards of normally un-craftable types drop as random loot, eg Banishing/Vorpal/etc Shards which you could then add to a crafted item.

[Ballyspringer]

Exactly. No one is going to bother with CC if they can find the equivalent in random lootgen. It will end up in exactly the same situation it is now: Used by a few players to make twink gear for low level toons when you can't find what you need elsewhere. And, with flexible shards being eliminated, combined with the very rigid rules of what stats/skills/etc can be put in which items, it may not even be used for that. Experienced crafters who have already maxed out their current levels will occasionally use it, and everyone else will ignore it as not worth the grind.

Most crafters I know gave up on CC years ago. This will not revive it. Folks who have never crafted may initially try it, and then as the grind sets in, they'll promptly abandon it.

yep - for me flexible was the last carrot on the stick making it a maybe I might bother as it could be good for some specific builds/toons due to working around named/raid loot. I just don't see any reason at all from what has been released to even bother with it, there's nothing at all that makes it stand out on it's own as being worth the grind compared to random/raid/named loot.

When the old system came out it had 3 great perks that all made it worth grinding for:

it had the same top level stats as the best possible random drops at the time
it could reduce ML of random gen by 2 for stats
it had flexible to make things fit into any build

And even with those three perks, a lot of people never bothered with it due to the grind, it's a niche thing that will never be for everyone - which I liked how that was set up. It was a grind, it took time, but when you got to higher levels it paid off!

The current update has none of those from what I've seen that has been released (well except the grind) - it's just an inferior system to all others and I'll say DOA for me unless what ends up actually being released is different, which I'm not holding my breath for.

On a side note I can't believe you're adding in even more collectibles! how many current collectibles are worthless? Why not use what's already in the game including the ones created just for crafting already? Or at least lets clean up collectibles, make the game stop giving the worthless ones and replace them with the new ones if you're truly hell-bent on creating more (which you are). If I was a new player the collectibles and what you should keep vs not keep is daunting - especially since newer players just don't have the bank/bag/storage toon space to spare for it so they have to be selective on what they keep. C'mon give us a break!

[Ulfo]

Old Cannith Crafting went to level 20, only had 2 effects, and didn't have insightful.

Wrong.
Currently 3 effects can be crafted:



Lol, i'm played in DDO about half-year or so, and know about issue more, than developer.

I think, it in the best way shows the current deplorable state of affairs with CC. 8)

[Burdigalos]

Hi Noworries,
This cannith crafting revamp looks good.
it will be simpler and use less different item and essences.

There are many old non scaling effects that are not scaling and do not show up in the new scaling effects list like:
Secret door detection
Keen
Mobility
Holy
Deathblock
Dusk
Good luck
And many others..
Would it be possible to provide a complete list of the new available prefix and suffixes so we have a better idea of what combination is possible?
Cheers,

[SisAmethyst]

Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.

I understand the point behind this but sad to see them go. How about a compromis of saying Felxible shards will only allow 2 effects. [i]Make the flexible attribute a hidden 3rd effect[i], this way a random loot item could still be better and you give players a choice.

If this is still too powerful put the shards then make it use a special ingredient like with the master crafted items. If this still isn't enough put it in th last group, which mean you have only a percent chance to actually craft it, but please don't completly abandon the flexible shards.

Additional question: we know what happen with the existing ingredients, but what happens with the existing shards crafted?

PS: For recap, currently standard stat. shards are restricted to:

CON : Ring, Neck, Belt
STR : Ring, Gloves, Belt
WIS : Ring, Neck, Head
CHA : Ring, Cloak, Head
DEX : Ring, Gloves, Boot
INT : Ring, Google, Head

This especially heavily limit the crafting on Cloak, Boot and Google. So an other option would be to at least open up a second shard for those items.

[JoyfulEagle]

Also the XP curve is changed quite a bit from the old system which can be seen by how much XP it takes to get to 150 now vs how much it did before.

Setting a character to level 70 and crafting ML shards, I had no problem getting to where level 100 shards were above a 40% chance, at which point it seemed most beneficial to focus on those and leveling continued quickly. It did not take an excess amount of recipes or failures to do so.

An example like this, which looks at one of two areas where the big group of recipes is the furthest spread out (and the other one being even lower where there is an easier leveling progression) would instead lend to the argument that if anything needed to be changed on recipe difficulties, it is that another group of some sort would be needed at 85. Since once you do start working on the 100s, every major group shows up in 25 level gaps providing a continuous feed. This wouldn't suggest that all recipes need to be spread out over the whole spectrum.

However, I didn't see any real difficulties getting through this leveling zone.

As a Dev, you have unlimited resources (specifically, the new collectables). So, you can keep making the same shards indefinitely. But, if we need to make the same shard 30 times, and then the next shard 30 time, and the next... we might have to run the same few quests a LOT to gather the collectables. It would be much better if we had a variety of recipes to choose from, so we could use a variety of different collectables.

Also, this is a risky thing to push. It is not likely to be tested thoroughly in Lamania, because grinding levels is generally very time consuming. And even more so if we need to run the quests to gather the collectables. So, most people are not going to have a "fair" way to judge this on Lamania. If we don't need to run the quests to get the collectables (because Lamania has a quick-buy feature), then we also don't get a "fair" assessment of the work involved.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about with "another group of some sort". Perhaps you would repeat earlier recipes (like is done in the existing crafting system), at different levels. That would be fine.

[Hilltrot]

At least for now you can crunch those into more essences. That is what I am going to do.

so, key an item to then shard it and then turn it into a small amount of essence. . .

Do this 400 times at least.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

[Hilltrot]

As a Dev, you have unlimited resources (specifically, the new collectables). So, you can keep making the same shards indefinitely. But, if we need to make the same shard 30 times, and then the next shard 30 time, and the next... we might have to run the same few quests a LOT to gather the collectables. It would be much better if we had a variety of recipes to choose from, so we could use a variety of different collectables.

Also, this is a risky thing to push. It is not likely to be tested thoroughly in Lamania, because grinding levels is generally very time consuming. And even more so if we need to run the quests to gather the collectables. So, most people are not going to have a "fair" way to judge this on Lamania. If we don't need to run the quests to get the collectables (because Lamania has a quick-buy feature), then we also don't get a "fair" assessment of the work involved.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about with "another group of some sort". Perhaps you would repeat earlier recipes (like is done in the existing crafting system), at different levels. That would be fine.

No, I disagree. A minimal level shard can be used for any number of enchants. An enchant can be used for any level. What I end up with inside my gargantuan ingredient bag is far more useful in the end than all the potpourri that's currently in my bag.

A grind is a grind when it comes to crafting. It's not like multiple adventures. It's hitting a button repeatedly. And hitting a blue button instead of a green one will not make the CC grind any more "fun".

The idea with CC is that you gain the mats through regular adventuring. Also the in game store and AH SE are options. Believe me, someone will grind them for you is you have the shards.

I am really looking forward to the new CC.

[Gremmlynn]

so, key an item to then shard it and then turn it into a small amount of essence. . .

Do this 400 times at least.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

No, just place the (stack of) shard(s) into the deconstruction station (and set the machine to decon the stack size) and hit the button.

Do this once for each stack of shards.

I'm thinking not knowing this may be why you have 400+ shards stacked up. Most decon most, if not all, the shards they make for xp purposes as soon as they get done in order to recover some essences for more leveling.

[rehakp]

So lets see.
You are reducing essences to one type. Because its too complicated to have what ... about 20 essence types.
You are reducing schools to one. Because its too complicated to have 3 crafting schools.
You are reducing tiered effects shards to one shard. Because its too complicated to pay attention and not making STR+6 instead of STR+2 shard.
Oooook i get it there.

BUT THEN

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?

... facepalm here ...
... start sarcasm ...
Im super enthusiastic about this.
Cant wait to discover new super simple crafting with ONE essence type, ONE school, less shards and thousand new collectible types i need to farm before i can even start crafting.
... end sarcasm ...

[Ballyspringer]

So lets see.
You are reducing essences to one type. Because its too complicated to have what ... about 20 essence types.
You are reducing schools to one. Because its too complicated to have 3 crafting schools.
You are reducing tiered effects shards to one shard. Because its too complicated to pay attention and not making STR+6 instead of STR+2 shard.
Oooook i get it there.

BUT THEN

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?

... facepalm here ...
... start sarcasm ...
Im super enthusiastic about this.
Cant wait to discover new super simple crafting with ONE essence type, ONE school, less shards and thousand new collectible types i need to farm before i can even start crafting.
... end sarcasm ...

+1

The contradiction with adding new collectibles is just so bad it's funny to me too, until you start looking at everything since and including when MOTU came out - screw everything that was done or made prior to what we just did now. Anything already in game is worthless or highly marginalized so you have to get all new stuff across the board with no apologizes or talk about how anything created prior to then can be made relevant again.

They do want to simplify things, but they also want to make it so anything created or done prior to whatever they are doing right now is obsolete and no one can have anything comparable already, and everyone in the game starts with the same clean slate new player and old player alike. (Which is also why there has been so much F'in power creep since MOTU)

Sorry to be so doom and gloom and you can all stop reading now to avoid the following rant if you wish as it has no further points:


Lots of speculation here since it's not concrete and in-game yet, but with the xp curve on getting levels being made easier than it currently is from what it sounds like for crafting (based on what has been said here although who knows for sure I guess) using that same thought process it makes sense that there is no consideration of how much went into getting old xp vs what will be new xp, so it's just a 1 for 1 xp to xp conversion when the schools merge and levels go up. So that anyone who didn't put in any time prior to the new shiny will be able to get right to where current max crafters are in a hurry easily so everyone basically starts in a similar spot - and all needing new collectibles to go with it.

I remember when it was found they were stealth nerfing the e-claw set back when to no longer stack and the only reason they came back with on why they were doing that was because it was too confusing for the player base to have more than just a couple different types of damage sources so a stacking untyped was just too hard to understand. But all of the stacking stuff that they have now including insightful, exceptional, ED's, enhancements, and epic feats that don't all show up on the character panel is much simpler... right....but then the imitation yet better than old epic S/S/S stuff from eveningstar started to show up and it all made sense, they couldn't have options in game other than their new shiny stuff. So adding in new collectibles for a new crafting system when you put it into that same thought process only makes sense even though it's a contradiction to making things easier and less complicated.

[slarden]

From my experience and info gathering:
Level 33 +15
Level 36 +16
Level 39 +17

I don't know about insight bonuses.

very helpful, thank you!

[NoWorries]

You are introducing 5 new tiers of collectibles. Whitch there are literally hundreds of them already and this way they become thousands ?
Because having literally hundreds of them already is not complicated enough ?

Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.

Lots of speculation here since it's not concrete and in-game yet, but with the xp curve on getting levels being made easier than it currently is from what it sounds like for crafting (based on what has been said here although who knows for sure I guess) using that same thought process it makes sense that there is no consideration of how much went into getting old xp vs what will be new xp, so it's just a 1 for 1 xp to xp conversion when the schools merge and levels go up. So that anyone who didn't put in any time prior to the new shiny will be able to get right to where current max crafters are in a hurry easily so everyone basically starts in a similar spot - and all needing new collectibles to go with it.

People who have never crafted before will still have to earn 240k xp to catch up to people who were maxed. Changing the curve simply changes what that amount correlates to, it doesn't mean new players don't have to earn what existing players did.

[Tarinia]

yep - for me flexible was the last carrot on the stick making it a maybe I might bother as it could be good for some specific builds/toons due to working around named/raid loot. I just don't see any reason at all from what has been released to even bother with it, there's nothing at all that makes it stand out on it's own as being worth the grind compared to random/raid/named loot.

When the old system came out it had 3 great perks that all made it worth grinding for:

it had the same top level stats as the best possible random drops at the time
it could reduce ML of random gen by 2 for stats
it had flexible to make things fit into any build

And even with those three perks, a lot of people never bothered with it due to the grind, it's a niche thing that will never be for everyone - which I liked how that was set up. It was a grind, it took time, but when you got to higher levels it paid off!

The current update has none of those from what I've seen that has been released (well except the grind) - it's just an inferior system to all others and I'll say DOA for me unless what ends up actually being released is different, which I'm not holding my breath for.

On a side note I can't believe you're adding in even more collectibles! how many current collectibles are worthless? Why not use what's already in the game including the ones created just for crafting already? Or at least lets clean up collectibles, make the game stop giving the worthless ones and replace them with the new ones if you're truly hell-bent on creating more (which you are). If I was a new player the collectibles and what you should keep vs not keep is daunting - especially since newer players just don't have the bank/bag/storage toon space to spare for it so they have to be selective on what they keep. C'mon give us a break!

I can only applaude your mail and also ask to the devs- please make the new cannith crafting worth it and give it the sam benefits then the old system:

1. more flexibility in slots
2. possibility to get some powerfull effects earlier in level
3. same top level stats and other effects as random collectibles (without loot day and potion enhancement possibilities)
4. no new collectibels- revive the importance of older collectibels and give them new use- for example epic scrolls, shards.. or just random collectibels.
5. no bigger grind then the old system- allow the old to be used in addition- why delete it without getting the old advantages
6. Make runearms or other loot with slots (cannith loot) immediatly usable with the new system
7. give older players who could use the old system the same edge as the had it before (exps, same collectibels...)5

Best regards
Tarinia

[DYWYPI]

I'll probably have more to add later on sometime but I'm a bit short on time at the moment.

Anybody that thought there wouldn't likely be more Cannith Collectables introduced by the Turbine Developers were naïve to say the least... Especially after they decided upon 1 'Cannith Essence' to rules them all; plus an increased range of Crafting levels. I cannot blame their logic there for introducing more Collectables (after unfortunately, 1 Crafting School was chosen).

Albeit that was one of the reasons I said; I'd have preferred 3 Schools because Essences are not the major limiting factor to gaining Cannith Crafting levels, its the requirement of other Cannith Crafting Ingredients and Cannith Crafting Collectables.

[...] An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added. ...

NoWorries, can you explain what you mean by "an additional 25 collectables" I presume you are referring to Cannith Crafting Collectables only and dropping/appearing at Epic Level quests?

Furthermore unless I've completely misunderstood that; you don't mean you are creating another 25 Completely New collectables. I'd presume you are creating maybe; 5 or 6 completely new Collectables. Plus recycling some Cannith Collectables as per: http://ddowiki.com/page/Crafting_Collectables

Now, if you are planning on introducing those additional Cannith Collectables (or Ingredients) that would only appear in VIP Adventure Packs. Then that obviously supports discrimination against the F2P players and creates an unlevel crafting-field.

[Cleanincubus]

Nope, there are already 4.5 tiers of collectables in the system. We are adding more to make a full tier 5 and a tier 6. There are around 105 collectables currently, some of which are specifically for certain content. An additional 25 collectables at the top levels are being added.

What?! I was expecting 1-5 new collectables, not 25. This is going too far. Unless the crafting storage bank space is going to be fixed, so everything stacks beyond 99, and/or bags retroactively get larger to hold more & stack more mats, this is a big issue. Where are we supposed to collect 25 new collectables? Every one of my characters (7 of them) have at least a small and medium collectable bag filled to the max. They contain no Event collectables, no collectables used in Cannith Crafting, no collectable used for Stone of Change rituals, no Mysterious Remnants, no anything other than randomly collected collectables. Forty-two spaces to contain the 64 existing collectables that do nothing other than get traded to Collectors for augments and such. That's on top of 207 of my 262 Crafting Storage space that's filled (I had to throw away useful collectables because they were taking up too much space.)

[CSQ]

I'm looking forward to the new Cannith Crafting changes, because I think they'll offer me what they offer in the new system without some of the clumsiness of the old.

I've used Cannith Crafting in the past to fill very particular niches in my gear sets. For example, I usually keep a keen weapon crafted for critical builds at low level or certain spell power shards on stuff for builds that aren't full casters but might appreciate having some boosts on other gear. While the new Cannith Crafting won't replace named loot in my loadouts probably, it looks like it will offer decent flexibility without some of the limitations of old CC, which is that it becomes next to worthless at higher levels because of new loot gen and named loot. While I still expect named loot to be the top priority, being able to round out limitations with a more flexible gear level sounds like it will make CC more viable throughout, rather than just to address early deficiencies at low level.