Brand new plqyer working on bear dps build

[Ursappho]

First, let me say that I know bear is suboptimal for dps, but I only started playing this game because I found out you could turn into a bear so nobody is going to convince me against it.

From my reading, I have heard a number of things I'm uncertain of regarding bear form. Any clarification would be appreciated. My current understanding is:

1. Twf does not affect bear form (only wolf)
2. Because of bug in druid code, you can benefit from both shield mastery and swf at the same time while in bear form
3. No base properties of your wielded weapon matter (e.g. Dice size and base critical range/multiplier) but magical weapon enhancements and properties such as 3[W] do matter. As a result feats such as improved critical and weapon specialization should be taken on bludgeoning weapons.
4. I should be able to cast level 5 druid spells with low wisdom

Based on these, I'm considering the following build
Half orc (biggest bear)
Stats (28 pt)

Str 20
Dex 14
Con 14
Crwp


9 druid/10 fighter/1 rogue

Druid for dire bear and natural weapon fighting, rogue for sneak attacks (which I should be able to do consistently with sleet storm) and fighter for heavy armor tower shield feats and dps enhancements.

Heroic Feats planned: swf x3 shield mastery x2 nwf x3 weapon focus specialization and improved crit in bludgeon, power attack, and heavy armor mastery (13 total. 6 from fighter 7 from levels)

I haven't worked out the specific enhancements, but looking through I plan to take dps ones from every fighter tree, rogue sneak attack bonus and druid mostly from beast tree except beguiling which seems like it will trigger often in melee

Currently lvl 1 rogue 1 druid.

Mostly I want to make sure I'm on a reasonable track and shouldn't reroll. I don't want to be overpowered, just not a burden to group with. Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks
HoneyBump Ursappho

[sithhound]

I can't help personally, so far I've avoided druids like the plague. I'm actually dreading the druid life on my completionist project.

My advice is try pm'ing unbongwah. He is the resident custom build maestro. I think I read somewhere where he said he takes requests.

[unbongwah]

This is the closest thing we have to a definitive thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...orking-with-it

1. Twf does not affect bear form (only wolf)

I think the TWF bugs affect wolf, bear, and tree (Primal Avatar) builds equally, due to all of them being coded as unarmed atks. I won't swear to that, though.

2. Because of bug in druid code, you can benefit from both shield mastery and swf at the same time while in bear form

This is incorrect...well, sorta. You can get SWF and Shield Mastery to stack in animal forms if you (A) splash bard 3, (B) take the Skirmisher enhancement, and (C) equip a buckler. This is inherent to how Skirmisher works, though (EDIT: rather than being a druid-specific bug), it just happens to affect animal builds too.

3. No base properties of your wielded weapon matter (e.g. Dice size and base critical range/multiplier) but magical weapon enhancements and properties such as 3[W] do matter.

Correction: +[W] modifiers on weapon do not carry over to animal forms, unfortunately, and is one of the downsides to them. The only possible exception AFAIK is Shillelagh might work; it was unclear the last time I tested it, which was ages ago. EDIT: meaning the buff icon shows up while in animal form, but I wasn't sure if I was actually doing more dmg.

As a result feats such as improved critical and weapon specialization should be taken on bludgeoning weapons.

That is correct.

4. I should be able to cast level 5 druid spells with low wisdom

To cast any spell, you need <caster stat> 10 + <spell level>, but any gear or tome bonuses count towards that requirement. So for lvl 5 druid spells, you need WIS 15: e.g., base 8 + 6 item + 1 tome = 15.

The trick to making a good bear build is finding ways to overcome your low atk speed. You could invest in doublestrike and SWF bonuses, but I think it makes more sense to do what a good tree build does and invest in Cleaves instead. So Cleave + GC, obviously, and Supreme Cleave (barb), Eldritch Strike, and/or Whirlwind Attack are all good options.

[Ursappho]

Thanks! This is very helpful although some bad news, particularly the weapon dice modification. That difference explains why everyone says bear melee forms are bad. To clarify, this means a human form with an end-game sword could do 5d10(average 27. 5)+bonuses (all multiplied by crit) the bear will do 1d12(ave 6.5)+bonuses, for a difference of 21 pre-crit damage?
Yikes.

I'll try to find where I read that twf doesn't work with bear), but presumably if it does work, one could stack twf swf and nwf to all increase attack rate?

In terms of the cleave build, does this work like pnp where there have to be multiple targets that you can kill with one hit, or does it allow multiple attacks on a single target? Is this effectively a build that is good without druid levels and not hurt too much by the bear form, or is there something about it that is synergistic with the bear? Why is bear attack speed in particular lower than a non-druid melee build?

[unbongwah]

I'll try to find where I read that twf doesn't work with bear), but presumably if it does work, one could stack twf swf and nwf to all increase attack rate?

Yes, however if you're focusing on atk speed, you really ought to go wolf form, which has a significantly faster hit rate and better crit profile than bear form. Bear builds work better by focusing on Cleaves, IMO, because they aren't affected by atk speed penalties (or bonuses). Another quirk: doublestrike and TWF offhand proc bonuses usually don't apply to Cleave atks, except if using unarmed strikes; this includes bear / wolf / tree form atks.

In terms of the cleave build, does this work like pnp where there have to be multiple targets that you can kill with one hit, or does it allow multiple attacks on a single target?

DDO Cleaves are AoE special attacks you can use every few seconds which can hit anything which is within the arc of your Cleave. I forget the exact angle covered by each atk, but it's something like 90 degrees for Cleave, 180 for Great Cleave, and 360 for Whirlwind Attack (WWA).

Why is bear attack speed in particular lower than a non-druid melee build?

Because Turbine decided bear would be the "tank-y" animal form while wolf would be the "DPS" form. The problem is they didn't give bear form enough tank-y bonuses to offset the DPS loss from the slower atk speed, IMO.

I haven't fleshed out the details, but the bear build I was thinking of these days is druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3. On a human, that gets 17 feats (8 heroic + 5 ftr + 4 epic), plus your ED feats. So that lets you take TWF x3, Shield Mastery x2, Natural Fighting x3, Power Atk/Cleave/GC, IC:Blunt + Overwhelming Crit, and 3 Weap Foc / Spec feats, with 1 feat left over. [Or alternatively, drop the WF/WS feats and maybe a NF to squeeze in WWA.]

[Ursappho]

Yes, however if you're focusing on atk speed, you really ought to go wolf form, which has a significantly faster hit rate and better crit profile than bear form. Bear builds work better by focusing on Cleaves, IMO, because they aren't affected by atk speed penalties (or bonuses). Another quirk: doublestrike and TWF offhand proc bonuses usually don't apply to Cleave atks, except if using unarmed strikes; this includes bear / wolf / tree form atks.

DDO Cleaves are AoE special attacks you can use every few seconds which can hit anything which is within the arc of your Cleave. I forget the exact angle covered by each atk, but it's something like 90 degrees for Cleave, 180 for Great Cleave, and 360 for Whirlwind Attack (WWA).

Because Turbine decided bear would be the "tank-y" animal form while wolf would be the "DPS" form. The problem is they didn't give bear form enough tank-y bonuses to offset the DPS loss from the slower atk speed, IMO.

I haven't fleshed out the details, but the bear build I was thinking of these days is druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3. On a human, that gets 17 feats (8 heroic + 5 ftr + 4 epic), plus your ED feats. So that lets you take TWF x3, Shield Mastery x2, Natural Fighting x3, Power Atk/Cleave/GC, IC:Blunt + Overwhelming Crit, and 3 Weap Foc / Spec feats, with 1 feat left over. [Or alternatively, drop the WF/WS feats and maybe a NF to squeeze in WWA.]

Awesome, thanks for clearing everything up. The cleave route sounds more appealing now that I know that bear uniquely (through magical bear bug-producing magic) gains the benefit of double-strikes and TWF on cleave attacks. I'll try roughly the build you recommend but half-orc for the larger bear and see how it goes.

[Hackoda]

I haven't fleshed out the details, but the bear build I was thinking of these days is druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3. On a human, that gets 17 feats (8 heroic + 5 ftr + 4 epic), plus your ED feats. So that lets you take TWF x3, Shield Mastery x2, Natural Fighting x3, Power Atk/Cleave/GC, IC:Blunt + Overwhelming Crit, and 3 Weap Foc / Spec feats, with 1 feat left over. [Or alternatively, drop the WF/WS feats and maybe a NF to squeeze in WWA.]

Saw this and decided to try it (I'm addicted to druids at the moment) and it's working better than I thought it would. I'm using the WWA variant, and right now I have 5 different cleaves, and by time I'm done with the final cleave, I can start the cycle again. The only down fall with the cycle is that Alpha Strike has a long cool down, so I have to run through 2 cycles of 4 cleaves before I can use it. I decided to go PDK for the instant level 15, and the fact that it has a huge bear. I'm pretty sure the bear butt takes up half my screen. While I'm not top DPS (I never liked playing uber builds cause I'm a casual player) I find myself to be very useful since I'm survivable, and do decent damage to large groups of mobs. I especially like jumping over a mob, and cleaving down on their heads. Something about a fat bear jumping into the air and pouncing is surprisingly entertaining.

[unbongwah]

Glad it's working out for you. BTW, do you have a sense of what's different / broken in U33? In particular, I'm wondering if (A) did we lose offhand procs on Cleave atks like unarmed monks did and (B) did we gain the ability to use Momentum Swing like handwraps did (or should've)? Also do Kensei crit bonuses work with animal forms yet?

EDIT: partial build based on PDK druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3

OverBEARing
9/8/3 Druid/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter         6. Druid          11. Fighter        16. Fighter
2. Druid           7. Druid          12. Fighter        17. Fighter
3. Druid           8. Druid          13. Fighter        18. Barbarian
4. Druid           9. Druid          14. Fighter        19. Barbarian
5. Druid          10. Druid          15. Fighter        20. Barbarian


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       +4       4: STR
Dexterity       13       +4       8: STR
Constitution    17       +4      12: STR
Intelligence    10       +4      16: STR
Wisdom           8       +4      20: STR
Charisma         8       +4      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 PDK    : Cleave
 1 Fighter: Shield Mastery
 3        : Dodge
 3 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 6        : Great Cleave
 6 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 9        : Two Weapon Fighting
 9 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
11 Fighter: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
12        : Mobility
13 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
15        : Spring Attack
15 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
17 Fighter: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Combat Expertise
21 Epic   : Whirlwind Attack
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Empower Healing Spell
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste
Anvil of Thunder
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz, Headman's Chop

[Tilomere]

Glad it's working out for you. BTW, do you have a sense of what's different / broken in U33? In particular, I'm wondering if (A) did we lose offhand procs on Cleave atks like unarmed monks did and (B) did we gain the ability to use Momentum Swing like handwraps did (or should've)? Also do Kensei crit bonuses work with animal forms yet?

No, No, and No.

I would move IC:B and shield feats to end, and twf and ww up. I would also take 3 barb as soon as possible, because supreme cleave owns heroics.

A first life character should probably start in PA for cocoon twist for ed leveling as well.

[Hackoda]

I don't :/ the character is only level 17 at the moment. Just built him Monday. I'll let you know later on. And I agree with Till take Barb asap. I took all three barb, 8 Druid, and 4 fighter levels to start with. The feats may be a bit screwy because of it, but I'll make it work. I also didn't want to take TWF because I don't particularly want something not WAI (just a personal preference) I'm focusing on cleaves, survivability, and then double strike. Single target melee kind of sucks, but when you use cleaves in a group of enemies you tend it kill at least 3, so I'm fatal that's a 15% boost to help single target.

[unbongwah]

I would move IC:B and shield feats to end, and twf and ww up. I would also take 3 barb as soon as possible, because supreme cleave owns heroics.

If you insist.

OverBEARing Mk II
9/8/3 Druid/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter         6. Druid          11. Barbarian      16. Fighter
2. Druid           7. Druid          12. Barbarian      17. Fighter
3. Druid           8. Druid          13. Barbarian      18. Fighter
4. Druid           9. Druid          14. Fighter        19. Fighter
5. Druid          10. Druid          15. Fighter        20. Fighter


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       +4       4: STR
Dexterity       13       +4       8: STR
Constitution    17       +4      12: STR
Intelligence    10       +4      16: STR
Wisdom           8       +4      20: STR
Charisma         8       +4      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 PDK    : Cleave
 1 Fighter: Dodge
 3        : Mobility
 3 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 6        : Great Cleave
 6 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 9        : Spring Attack
 9 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
12        : Combat Expertise
14 Fighter: Whirlwind Attack
15        : Two Weapon Fighting
16 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter: Shield Mastery
20 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic   : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Empower Healing Spell
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth

[FranOhmsford]

If you insist.

OverBEARing Mk II
9/8/3 Druid/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter         6. Druid          11. Barbarian      16. Fighter
2. Druid           7. Druid          12. Barbarian      17. Fighter
3. Druid           8. Druid          13. Barbarian      18. Fighter
4. Druid           9. Druid          14. Fighter        19. Fighter
5. Druid          10. Druid          15. Fighter        20. Fighter


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       +4       4: STR
Dexterity       13       +4       8: STR
Constitution    17       +4      12: STR
Intelligence    10       +4      16: STR
Wisdom           8       +4      20: STR
Charisma         8       +4      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 PDK    : Cleave
 1 Fighter: Dodge
 3        : Mobility
 3 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 6        : Great Cleave
 6 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 9        : Spring Attack
 9 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
12        : Combat Expertise
14 Fighter: Whirlwind Attack
15        : Two Weapon Fighting
16 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter: Shield Mastery
20 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic   : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Empower Healing Spell
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth

[Flintridge]

If you insist.

OverBEARing Mk II
9/8/3 Druid/Fighter/Barbarian
True Neutral Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter         6. Druid          11. Barbarian      16. Fighter
2. Druid           7. Druid          12. Barbarian      17. Fighter
3. Druid           8. Druid          13. Barbarian      18. Fighter
4. Druid           9. Druid          14. Fighter        19. Fighter
5. Druid          10. Druid          15. Fighter        20. Fighter


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       +4       4: STR
Dexterity       13       +4       8: STR
Constitution    17       +4      12: STR
Intelligence    10       +4      16: STR
Wisdom           8       +4      20: STR
Charisma         8       +4      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Feats

 1        : Power Attack
 1 PDK    : Cleave
 1 Fighter: Dodge
 3        : Mobility
 3 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Bear
 6        : Great Cleave
 6 Druid  : Wild Shape 1: Wolf
 9        : Spring Attack
 9 Druid  : Wild Shape 2: Dire Bear
12        : Combat Expertise
14 Fighter: Whirlwind Attack
15        : Two Weapon Fighting
16 Fighter: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Fighter: Shield Mastery
20 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
21 Epic   : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Empower Healing Spell
28 Destiny: First Blood OR Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Dire Charge OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Natural Fighting OR Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth

Would this still be valid as of today? Or would you recommend changes to it? Also could you recommend a version that does not require starting at lvl 15?

Thank you,

Flintridge

[unbongwah]

Would this still be valid as of today? Or would you recommend changes to it?

Does it still work? Yes. Is it a good idea? Uhhh, depends: how much DPS are you willing to sacrifice for the novelty of being a bear? Because the exact same build using Winter Wolf instead of Dire Bear would be a significant improvement.

Also could you recommend a version that does not require starting at lvl 15?

Check out my wolves thread; the druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3 build in there can be tweaked for bear-form instead.