Warlock > Sorcerer and Wizard?

[EvilGremlin]

I just rolled a new warlock. All I can say is wow. I am only level 8 atm so it may be that my perspective is skewed. But is it really as easy as it seems (comparatively). I know it isn't this easy because I am good at the game (I am not). Maybe that's the issue? Is a warlock just easier to play for stupid people like me and has a lower skill ceiling than a wizard or sorcerer? Are good wiz/sorcs better? What am I missing? If warlock is as good as it seems, what happens to wizards and sorcerers? I'm not trying to start an argument. There were no warlocks last time I played. So what's the deal? Has the warlock usurped the wizard and/or sorcerer?

[FranOhmsford]

1) Warlock is a ****tonne easier to play than a Wizard or Sorc!

2) Warlock is far more dependable than a Wizard or Sorc in ALL Content all things being equal player wise. Great Arcane Player on a Sorc or Wizard will still outplay a weaker player on a Warlock generally.

3) Wizard and Sorc are due for an Update and it needs to be a big one because they've been left behind. {Sorc not so much but Wizard is in a really bad way atm}.

[Morroiel]

First off, I can zerg level 1-16 easier on a sorcerer than on a warlock. It takes a tiny bit more skill but not much imo. Warlock is superior from 16 and on imo though.

Endgame is the only thing of relevance imo - the following answers are based around that gameplay.

You asked if Warlock is better than sorcerer/wizard - I'll break it down...:

Sorcerers are in a really bad place at the moment (barring a very few niche builds). They lack meaningful dps, sustain, and durability. They are in desperate need of a rework (addition of trees other than elemental savants would go a long way). Imo, they are nearly equal with favored souls at the moment, which is to say they are ****.

Wizards are in a strange place. On the one hand you've got palemasters doing there thing - incredibly useful and rewarding to play. CC and instakills are a necessity for endgame - palemasters are the creme de la creme of this niche. On the other hand you've got shiradi caster backbones using the archmagi tree, able to dish out the highest magic based dps in the game. They certainly could use some polishing, and personally, I would love to see wizard dps casters being a thing without relying on pewpew shiradi. However, they are in a much better place than they have been in the last couple years.

Warlocks are in a pseudo good place. They have massive survivability built into their class framework. Their dps is solid and doesn't have to deal with grazing hits / dr or a limited spell pool. They are functional at end game, and anything meant to be challenging from a survivability point of view can be easily dealt with on one of these toons. However, this won't last. As power creep comes in, they'll become more and more imbalanced simply due to the fact that they are nearly unkillable. They have been dealt a few nerfs since release but it targeted the wrong things - their dps. They needed to reduce the survivability inherent in warlock. Their dps is only top tier (even before the nerfs) while leveling. At endgame, they are bottom of the ranks for playable builds/toons in terms of dps.

----------------------------

I'd also like to add, that warlock is a newer class and therefore designed in line with the reworked uber melees/ranged frameworks. Sorcerer and wizard both suffer from dated enhancement trees and an incomplete set of trees (eldritch knight doesn't count - and sorcerers only really have 1 tree due to the 4 elemental ones being nearly identical).

In short, warlock will be op while leveling but then again almost anything is that wasn't deliberately built to be challenging to level. At cap, it will still be op in the hands of a player who can't survive on other builds/toons, simply because of the whole "when you are dead, you do no dps" factor. However, if you can survive on any of the other endgame builds, they will serve you better than warlock hands down.

[slarden]

A few things to note:

1) Warlocks are overpowered during heroic levels, but as you get to 30 they aren't nearly as dominant as they are during heroics. It seems Turbine can't fix warlocks at heroic levels without breaking capped warlocks so it seems they are just leaving it alone. I would like to see warlocks nerfed for heroic levels without being nerfed at 30.

2) Blasting warlock builds are easy button builds because base damage is no-fail - only the pact damage is subject to saves so someone with bad DCs is maybe at 80% damage output vs. a high-DC warlock, but giving up DC makes gearing easier and allows you to spec for con instead of charisma so you will be a 2000 hp wonder. Personally I want the full damage as that 25% dps increase is significant and right now will saves are low at end game so a warlock with 80 DC in great old one is getting max damage most of the time. I don't die much at 1500 hp as a max cha build so I feel I am getting max dps and still solid defenses - there is no reason to give up so much dps so that I never die. If you twist in Energy burst that is going to always be half damage if you dump DC. I get full damage often enough on my energy burst I feel it's worth maxing charisma.

Warlock (Especially Enlightened Spirit Casting Blasting Warlock) is a great solo caster build because unlike death spells it works on almost everything (evil damage for main blast) and you always have the option of turning utterdark off if it doesn't work. If you are in exalted angel destiny you can even raise yourself with the reborn in the light epic moment - which gets charged up very quickly with the aura. It works in groups too, but if you want to farm LE for gear you can clear the dungeon fast solo - every EE and LE quest in the game. That is also true for melees, but they are more gear and past life dependent compared to a warlock.

If your warlock is having problems surviving. No problem - dump cha for con and clear the dungeons slower but you increase your hp and survivability, but you should still work towards a max charisma build which is better overall.

3) Wizards and Sorcs are in a great place, but more dependent on past lifes and gear if not a shiradi caster. They have more challenges soloing difficult content because when death spells aren't working (PMs) or many enemies are immune/resistant to your main element backup dps can be slower and costly. Shiradi wizards like warlocks have less issues this way and can solo any dungeon EE LE in the game. The only enemies my shiradi caster has problems with is Helmed Horrors (Have to use energy burst, ruin, greater ruin and unmetad spells on these), wiz king (ruin greater ruin arcane pulse energy burst of right elements work here) and queen Lailat (ruin greater ruin arcane pulse energy works here). My shiradi caster can solo all the LE quests no problem - just slightly slower than my warlock but my shiradi caster has way less gear and past lifes.

[EvilGremlin]

I'm not so sure you are right about wiz/sorc being in "a great place." I hear they are better now than they were. And maybe at level 30, fully geared with multiple past lives you are right. But you are the first person I have ever heard say that. As somebody who remembers how they used to be, I'll agree that they are in a great place once DC casting is a thing again (without too many past lives).


Thanks for the replies guys. That pretty much answers all of my questions.

[FranOhmsford]

So you guys are saying that wizard and sorcerer are better at level 30? Better in what regard exactly? More damage?

Faster Boss DPS.

A Wizard or Sorc cannot compete with a Warlock when it comes to amount of damage because the Warlock is the Duracell Bunny of Casters!

But the Wiz or Sorc has the extra Spells that allow him/her to unload on a boss whereas the Warlock doesn't and has to either turtle up and just keep hitting EB/SB or swap to basic bolt and backwards kite {losing quite a lot of hits when turning because the bolt doesn't auto-target and just flies past the mob}.

The Wizard or Sorc can kill trash just as fast yes but will run out of SPs very fast if he/she tries to keep up with the Warlock who doesn't have to worry about SPs.

[EvilGremlin]

Faster Boss DPS.

A Wizard or Sorc cannot compete with a Warlock when it comes to amount of damage because the Warlock is the Duracell Bunny of Casters!

But the Wiz or Sorc has the extra Spells that allow him/her to unload on a boss whereas the Warlock doesn't and has to either turtle up and just keep hitting EB/SB or swap to basic bolt and backwards kite {losing quite a lot of hits when turning because the bolt doesn't auto-target and just flies past the mob}.

The Wizard or Sorc can kill trash just as fast yes but will run out of SPs very fast if he/she tries to keep up with the Warlock who doesn't have to worry about SPs.

So it is burst DPS? Okay. That makes sense. Burst down until you are out of SP. In the old days (when the level cap was 10) it wasn't much different. You still had to rely on your party to get to the end of the dungeon then you would lay waste to the bosses for them. I think maybe what has changed now is the lack of people playing. So now solo capability has become more important.

[Enoach]

I think the difference really is in the players playstyle.

Some people like different styles.

Why Warlocks can be DC as well as Blaster types, the Wizard Class really lends itself to that style. The advantage is in the depth of spells available. Additionally, the majority of the quests don't end with bosses with huge HP.

Sorcerer's can be DC casters but are limited only by Feats compared to Wizard but are even with Warlock in these cases. Sorcerer's don't have a power they can continually spam without SP, but they do have access to lots of damaging sla's for a very cheap amount spell point wise. Additionally, the access to spell power can make a single room disappear in a ball of fire for example.

So if you like the Hybrid style of DC and Blasting the Warlock is a good choice for this.

[FranOhmsford]

I think the difference really is in the players playstyle.

Some people like different styles.

Why Warlocks can be DC as well as Blaster types, the Wizard Class really lends itself to that style. The advantage is in the depth of spells available. Additionally, the majority of the quests don't end with bosses with huge HP.

Sorcerer's can be DC casters but are limited only by Feats compared to Wizard but are even with Warlock in these cases. Sorcerer's don't have a power they can continually spam without SP, but they do have access to lots of damaging sla's for a very cheap amount spell point wise. Additionally, the access to spell power can make a single room disappear in a ball of fire for example.

So if you like the Hybrid style of DC and Blasting the Warlock is a good choice for this.

I've found that Enchantment is probably the best Spell Focus for an ES.

Having Mass Hold, Mass Charm and Disco Ball while not really having much in the way of DPS Spells or Instakills along with the ability to put out pretty much constant DPS from the Aura, Chain, EB and SB is pretty much where it's at.
Evard's is Conju but it's ONE Spell and I don't think taking Feats for just ONE Spell is in any way viable!



I'm also not sure about all the extra Spell Like Abilities in Souleater because you have to stop blasting to use them and there's a little gap there just like with Whirlwind Attack on TwoWpn Melees.
Those abilities look nice but I've got the feeling they're a DPS Drain having tried to make a Souleater Lock.

[Marshal_Lannes]

A few things to note:

1) Warlocks are overpowered during heroic levels, but as you get to 30 they aren't nearly as dominant as they are during heroics. It seems Turbine can't fix warlocks at heroic levels without breaking capped warlocks so it seems they are just leaving it alone. I would like to see warlocks nerfed for heroic levels without being nerfed at 30.

2) Blasting warlock builds are easy button builds because base damage is no-fail - only the pact damage is subject to saves so someone with bad DCs is maybe at 80% damage output vs. a high-DC warlock, but giving up DC makes gearing easier and allows you to spec for con instead of charisma so you will be a 2000 hp wonder. Personally I want the full damage as that 25% dps increase is significant and right now will saves are low at end game so a warlock with 80 DC in great old one is getting max damage most of the time. I don't die much at 1500 hp as a max cha build so I feel I am getting max dps and still solid defenses - there is no reason to give up so much dps so that I never die. If you twist in Energy burst that is going to always be half damage if you dump DC. I get full damage often enough on my energy burst I feel it's worth maxing charisma.

Warlock (Especially Enlightened Spirit Casting Blasting Warlock) is a great solo caster build because unlike death spells it works on almost everything (evil damage for main blast) and you always have the option of turning utterdark off if it doesn't work. If you are in exalted angel destiny you can even raise yourself with the reborn in the light epic moment - which gets charged up very quickly with the aura. It works in groups too, but if you want to farm LE for gear you can clear the dungeon fast solo - every EE and LE quest in the game. That is also true for melees, but they are more gear and past life dependent compared to a warlock.

If your warlock is having problems surviving. No problem - dump cha for con and clear the dungeons slower but you increase your hp and survivability, but you should still work towards a max charisma build which is better overall.

3) Wizards and Sorcs are in a great place, but more dependent on past lifes and gear if not a shiradi caster. They have more challenges soloing difficult content because when death spells aren't working (PMs) or many enemies are immune/resistant to your main element backup dps can be slower and costly. Shiradi wizards like warlocks have less issues this way and can solo any dungeon EE LE in the game. The only enemies my shiradi caster has problems with is Helmed Horrors (Have to use energy burst, ruin, greater ruin and unmetad spells on these), wiz king (ruin greater ruin arcane pulse energy burst of right elements work here) and queen Lailat (ruin greater ruin arcane pulse energy works here). My shiradi caster can solo all the LE quests no problem - just slightly slower than my warlock but my shiradi caster has way less gear and past lifes.

This is a fantastic summary +1

The poster who says Warlocks are near the bottom of end game DPS is not correct. As pointed out in the above quoted post the class allows for some of the easiest clearing of EE content of any builds. Warlocks will lead KC in many EE raids. In LE raids they are more balanced and you will find other builds catch up and some surpass them. The main attraction for Warlocks is that they are a past-life/gear balancer. You can make a Warlock with very few if any past lives and basically whatever gear you pick up through questing and be quit successful. You can also customize a Warlock to your play style.

[majorhavoc]

I just rolled a new warlock. All I can say is wow. I am only level 8 atm so it may be that my perspective is skewed. But is it really as easy as it seems (comparatively). I know it isn't this easy because I am good at the game (I am not). Maybe that's the issue? Is a warlock just easier to play for stupid people like me and has a lower skill ceiling than a wizard or sorcerer? Are good wiz/sorcs better? What am I missing? If warlock is as good as it seems, what happens to wizards and sorcerers? I'm not trying to start an argument. There were no warlocks last time I played. So what's the deal? Has the warlock usurped the wizard and/or sorcerer?

Having personally played an arcane caster of some kind for over 80 lives, I think I am qualified to make a few observations on the current state of the classes.

Sorc: Prior to U26 this was my prefered class, eventually settled on WF blaster build, massive burst DPS, soloable, & still effective in groups, but very very squishy. In order to mitigate the shortcomings some DPS must be sacrificed for endgame survivability.

Wiz: my least favorite arcane class, until I played an insta-kill build, which always leads the kill count but is almost totally worthless on portals & red named mobs, mana pool is less of an an issue now.

Loc: My new favorite arcane class, a surprising good balance between DPS & endgame survivability. Currently playing a Nuke-Loc build and having a blast(literally), amazing DPS that is just as effective on red names, yard trash goes down just as fast as a Sorc but with better survivability. I may try the Necro-Lok build on the next few lives, but for now the Nuke-Lok is fun as hell.

Current Build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 4.31.203
DDO Character Planner Home Page

StormMage WL 
Level 30 True Neutral Bladeforged Male
(20 Warlock \ 10 Epic) 
Hit Points: 590
Spell Points: 1258 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 11
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 30)
Strength              8                    17
Dexterity             6                    15
Constitution         20                    31
Intelligence         12                    21
Wisdom                6                    15
Charisma             18                    38

Tomes Used
+7 Tome of Strength used at level 1 \par +7 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1 \par +7 Tome of Constitution used at level 1 \par +7 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1 \par +7 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1 \par +7 Tome of Charisma used at level 1 \par 
                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 30)
Balance              -2                    12
Bluff                 0                    26
Concentration         0                    45
Diplomacy             0                    26
Disable Device        n/a                  n/a
Haggle                0                    26
Heal                  0                    14
Hide                 -2                    12
Intimidate            0                    26
Jump                 -2                    13
Listen                0                    14
Move Silently        -2                    12
Open Lock             n/a                  n/a
Perform               2                    37
Repair                5                    29
Search                3                    20
Spellcraft            2                    40
Spot                  0                    14
Swim                 -4                    11
Tumble               -1                    13
Use Magic Device      n/a                  40

Level 1 (Warlock)
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Energy Criticals
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Energy Criticals
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Energy Criticals
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Arcane Alacrity
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Arcane Alacrity
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Arcane Alacrity
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Divine Sphere (ALL)
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Martial Sphere (ALL)
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Primal Sphere (ALL)
Feat: (Past Life) Iconic Past Life (ALL)
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Warlock
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Warlock
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Warlock
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard


Level 2 (Warlock)


Level 3 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Completionist


Level 4 (Warlock)


Level 5 (Warlock)


Level 6 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 7 (Warlock)


Level 8 (Warlock)


Level 9 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Warlock)


Level 11 (Warlock)


Level 12 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Warlock)


Level 14 (Warlock)


Level 15 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 16 (Warlock)


Level 17 (Warlock)


Level 18 (Warlock)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Warlock)


Level 20 (Warlock)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Eldritch Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Aura of Courage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Shape Vestments (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Body (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Body (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light II (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light II (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Tainted Spellcasting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Tainted Lore I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Stanch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Tainted Lore II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Blood Component (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Heretical Lore (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Planar Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Feigned Health (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Feigned Health (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Feigned Health (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Strong Pact I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Utterdark Blast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Eldritch Blast Shape: Chain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Strong Pact II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Confusion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Confusion (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Confusion (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Strong Pact III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Enervating Shadow (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Bewitching Blast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Bewitching Blast (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Bewitching Blast (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Strong Pact IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Eldritch Power (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Spell Focus: Evocation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Tainted Scholar (Wlk) - Planar Focus (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Wellspring of Power


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Intensify Spell


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Divine Sphere: Epic Spell Power: Light


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Arcane Sphere: Hellball


Level 29 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Arcane Sphere: Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast


Level 30 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Greater Ruin
Feat: (Legendary) Scion of the Plane of Fire

[Blastyswa]

I just rolled a new warlock. All I can say is wow. I am only level 8 atm so it may be that my perspective is skewed. But is it really as easy as it seems (comparatively). I know it isn't this easy because I am good at the game (I am not). Maybe that's the issue? Is a warlock just easier to play for stupid people like me and has a lower skill ceiling than a wizard or sorcerer? Are good wiz/sorcs better? What am I missing? If warlock is as good as it seems, what happens to wizards and sorcerers? I'm not trying to start an argument. There were no warlocks last time I played. So what's the deal? Has the warlock usurped the wizard and/or sorcerer?

A pure warlock played on a skilled player with experience with warlocks will perform better overall than a pure wizard or sorcerer played by that same skilled player with equal experience with those classes. This is due to warlock's having less sp consumption, higher AoE range (360 degree around themselves), and significantly higher survivability. This also excludes Shiradi spammer build's that aren't actually played as wizard/sorcerers, but as build's focusing solely on chain missile/magic missile proccing in shiradi. A pure wizard might be able to outkill a warlock through the use of insta-kills, but in boss fights, soloing content, or quests with high amounts of deathward, the warlock will pull ahead; warlocks also tend to have more DPS than sorcerers if played correctly.

The potential deficits in a warlock build are boss damage, which is relatively low if not compensated for, healing, which is basically non-existent if not compensated for, similar to fleshy non necro wizards/sorcerers, and crowd control, which is significantly less on a warlock than on a wizard in particular.
These deficits can be easily compensated for by a decent player though with epic feats (Arcane Pulse/Ruins for bosses), twists/destiny (healing cocoon, consecration, or renewal), and destiny (Sentinel because crowd control doesn't matter if you won't die anyway, or shiradi champion for the nerve venom).

Wizards still do fine in party settings for crowd control and insta-kills, while sorcerers are played relatively little outside of magic missile spammers (I know only one sorcerer on my server who can contribute to parties and plays in something other than Shiradi). All in all though, warlocks are in a superior position, which is why I think they could do with quite a bit of nerfing.

[Blastyswa]

Their dps is only top tier (even before the nerfs) while leveling. At endgame, they are bottom of the ranks for playable builds/toons in terms of dps.
However, if you can survive on any of the other endgame builds, they will serve you better than warlock hands down.

I would definitely disagree with those statements; warlock is definitely not a bottom tier DPS build by any means. My warlock consistently outperforms friendly party members playing trees/throwers/shiradi's, and easily outperforms build's like sorcerers, fighters, paladins, and bards at cap. Even comparing my warlock to my other builds, my warlock has twice the HP of my thrower and triple the HP of most of my melees, but outputs significantly increased damage. I've soloed DoJ, MoD, and quests like ToEE/Terminal Delirium just fine on warlock builds.

Personally, the very reason a lot of warlocks don't output top-tier DPS is that they overestimate the class. Warlocks are exceptionally powerful in all content, but in heroics they are superior to basically any other class. A lot of players go through heroics on a warlock for quick leveling, and don't focus much on gear or taking decent feats and stats, so they end up with a 1,000 HP warlock with 50 charisma and a bunch of bad gear at level 30, where someone who maximizes the power of their warlock can easily hit 60+ charisma with 2,000 HP, even without being in Sentinel. A properly played and equipped warlock will outdps properly played paladins, sorcerers, and many other build's, as long as the player isn't attempting to play the build the same way they did in heroics (Spamming cone shape in epics is a bad idea, as is relying solely on aura; ruin's/arcane pulses should be mixed in unless you're playing in shiradi with a 5 piece ender set and playing the proc game).

[slarden]

I've soloed DoJ, MoD, and quests like ToEE/Terminal Delirium just fine on warlock builds.

Ok I have to admit soloing MOD Is very impressive. I didn't even think it was possible to complete with less than 2.

[slarden]

A pure warlock played on a skilled player with experience with warlocks will perform better overall than a pure wizard or sorcerer played by that same skilled player with equal experience with those classes. This is due to warlock's having less sp consumption, higher AoE range (360 degree around themselves), and significantly higher survivability. This also excludes Shiradi spammer build's that aren't actually played as wizard/sorcerers, but as build's focusing solely on chain missile/magic missile proccing in shiradi. A pure wizard might be able to outkill a warlock through the use of insta-kills, but in boss fights, soloing content, or quests with high amounts of deathward, the warlock will pull ahead; warlocks also tend to have more DPS than sorcerers if played correctly.

The potential deficits in a warlock build are boss damage, which is relatively low if not compensated for, healing, which is basically non-existent if not compensated for, similar to fleshy non necro wizards/sorcerers, and crowd control, which is significantly less on a warlock than on a wizard in particular.
These deficits can be easily compensated for by a decent player though with epic feats (Arcane Pulse/Ruins for bosses), twists/destiny (healing cocoon, consecration, or renewal), and destiny (Sentinel because crowd control doesn't matter if you won't die anyway, or shiradi champion for the nerve venom).

Wizards still do fine in party settings for crowd control and insta-kills, while sorcerers are played relatively little outside of magic missile spammers (I know only one sorcerer on my server who can contribute to parties and plays in something other than Shiradi). All in all though, warlocks are in a superior position, which is why I think they could do with quite a bit of nerfing.

The concensus among the good players in Sarlona seems to be that sorc/wiz/fvs shradi, tree, melee wolf are all better than warlock in the hands of a capable player. Warlock is a certainly an easy button build and very versatile.

Instakill and cc wizard is very useful in raids like shroud and ts.

The only change needed to warlock is to make all the damage subject to the pact save not just the pact damage. Then there would be a trade-off between dps and survivability. Aside from that no nerf is really needed.

[Blastyswa]

The concensus among the good players in Sarlona seems to be that sorc/wiz/fvs shradi, tree, melee wolf are all better than warlock in the hands of a capable player. Warlock is a certainly an easy button build and very versatile.

Instakill and cc wizard is very useful in raids like shroud and ts.

The only change needed to warlock is to make all the damage subject to the pact save not just the pact damage. Then there would be a trade-off between dps and survivability. Aside from that no nerf is really needed.

From what I've seen on Cannith (I participate in many of the static LE runs of LE Shroud, and LE Tempest's Spine is pugged fairly often) a wizard is wanted for every run, and most players have a multi-life alt as a pure wizard specifically for LE raids. Multiple wizards aren't really necessary though, because you're losing boss DPS and you only really need one insta-killer to take out all the trash. I don't see many people playing wolves, although a lot of people have them as alts; I have one myself, but melee builds in LE raids without significant survivability investment are rather useless, like trees and wolves with 1000-1500 HP, because most LE Shroud runs the Rakshasa at the end is kited around anyway, and melee's who can't take a hit on LE Tempest's Spine aren't very good against Sorjek; they might do fine against trash, but in LE Tempest's Spine any build can do fine against trash (My warlock can commonly lead groups on kills, especially if there's no insta-killer) and in LE Shroud we don't really go in without an insta-killer if it can be helped.

I honestly have been underwhelmed by the sorc/wiz/fvs shiradi build; It's certainly a good build, but from what I've seen from people playing it is that the offense - defense ratio is pretty terrible, so you'll get shiradi's that do mediocre on kills but lead the death count thanks to pulling more aggro than they can handle with a chain missile; the most successful builds I've actually seen in LE quests are heavy repeater builds and thrower builds, on offense and staying alive, but they still end up getting killed some when something sneak up on them. I see a lot of warlocks that go into LE raids with 2000 HP in Sentinel who then do no DPS, or who go into LE raids with 1000 HP and then get killed constantly; I think to a large degree these are the warlocks that skew the perception of players towards warlocks not being terribly overpowered. The warlocks who have 2,000 HP in Shiradi I see perform very well, and the warlocks who have 3,000 HP in Sentinel tend to the very well (Especially if you factor in tanking value), but so many players choose warlock as a build for first life/undergeared characters because of it's high base power that they clog the rank of warlocks with mediocre builds, which makes the class look weaker.

Honestly though, I'd have to say the biggest factor in DPS I've noticed is a 5 piece ender set. There's 2-3 players on cannith who seem to have full 5 piece sets on a dozen toons, and one in particular I know leads kill counts and boss DPS whether he's playing on a warlock, tempest, thrower, mechanic, or other build with a 5 piece ender set. I think that a lot of people tend to compare 5 piece ender set trees with undergeared not many past lives sub-optimal warlock builds, and come to the valid conclusion that the tree performs better than the warlock, which is true in that case. From what I've seen though, a well geared warlock in the hands of a capable player is easily on par with builds like trees and furishuri's; personally all of those build's should be nerfed, having played each of them, because they simply work so well that content cannot be balanced around them within messing up every other build's play experience.

[count_spicoli]

Warlock >every class in game!!!

[Irongutz2000]

(Spamming cone shape in epics is a bad idea).

U r completely wrong about this. I use cone 98% of the time in epics, the only time i don't is when i am using enervating shadow for hound and bosses. Though i play a soul eater / tainted scholar build with endritch wave. Which is more dps then 99% of the other warlocks who seem stuck in ES which is for tanking or new players IMO.

Also by epics I mean LE shroud , tempest spine etc etc

[Blastyswa]

U r completely wrong about this. I use cone 98% of the time in epics, the only time i don't is when i am using enervating shadow for hound and bosses. Though i play a soul eater / tainted scholar build with endritch wave. Which is more dps then 99% of the other warlocks who seem stuck in ES which is for tanking or new players IMO.

Also by epics I mean LE shroud , tempest spine etc etc

Based off my experience of playing, and playing with, different warlocks, I have never once seen a cone shaped build that isn't entirely relying on eldritch wave perform decently. Eldritch Wave I agree is good, but I consider any build running a blast stance other than aura suboptimal because metamagics can't be applied to those attacks, and much more DPS can be outputted hitting once with aura and 1-2 times with arcane pulse, ruins, hellball, or another attack than with casting 2-3 cone attacks at -300 spellpower in those 2 seconds. If you don't my posting some LE gameplay of your cone warlock doing well and it's not just jumping in circles tapping eldritch wave every 8 seconds, I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but in my experience messing with cone shape and seeing other people mess with cone shape it's highly suboptimal DPS-wise.

[Irongutz2000]

Based off my experience of playing, and playing with, different warlocks, I have never once seen a cone shaped build that isn't entirely relying on eldritch wave perform decently. Eldritch Wave I agree is good, but I consider any build running a blast stance other than aura suboptimal because metamagics can't be applied to those attacks, and much more DPS can be outputted hitting once with aura and 1-2 times with arcane pulse, ruins, hellball, or another attack than with casting 2-3 cone attacks at -300 spellpower in those 2 seconds. If you don't my posting some LE gameplay of your cone warlock doing well and it's not just jumping in circles tapping eldritch wave every 8 seconds, I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but in my experience messing with cone shape and seeing other people mess with cone shape it's highly suboptimal DPS-wise.

I can't post a video as I do not have the equipment to.I am an end game player and have soloed all the LE's and run LE raids with this build 2 times a week. Cone fires faster then aura ticks. My playstyle is hell ball group as i am running into range , wave ( which hits 3 times), energy burst , then cone till its dead.... which isn't long. U can also kite backwards and stay just out of enemies range. Also use sharadi as my destiny nerve toxin = win!
I would also like to see an aura warlock out perform my build there must be horrible players onn G-land , last search and rescue I did , there where 2 aura warlocks in there and the kill count was 212 to 36............
Not saying everyone can do what i can ... it takes a good player to make this build work. If u rn't u maybe dead most of the time.
And metas effect aura? What?

Edit *** also soul eater gives u 8% crit chance and critting is good