Cannith Crafting Discussion - Part 2

[JoyfulEagle]

People are asking questions. Which is essentially the whole reason this thread exists and was made.

Questions are not the point. Answers are the point.

Has anyone noticed that NoWorries is only responding to terse griefing posts?

I am not saying I support that kind of approach. In the beginning, she addressed things like runearms, even though she couldn't give a real answer (commendable). Now, she doesn't acknowledge anything accept hate. What lesson is being taught here?

[Saekee]

which group will deathblock be in?

[Zeleron]

Until the new Random Loot System is updated and improved, the entire Cannith Crafting update is Dead On Arrival (DOA).

If this point isn't known/understood at the Dev level, then you may as well release new CC now without any new improvements because it's DOA with or without additional manhours applied.

Please expand on this, how is random loot system broken currently? How will the new crafting system be dead on arrival, and just because you think something doesn't work the way you want it too does not mean it is broken.

[Gremmlynn]

Please expand on this, how is random loot system broken currently? How will the new crafting system be dead on arrival, and just because you think something doesn't work the way you want it too does not mean it is broken.

I think it's mostly with DR breaking. The missing effects wont be as much a problem as long as the recipes for them make it into the crafting system. There are also issues with effects missing names or names not getting put on the item.

I wont get as hyperbolic as he, but do think these issues with the random loot system should be ironed out before crafting is changed to emulate the random loot system.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Please expand on this, how is random loot system broken currently? How will the new crafting system be dead on arrival, and just because you think something doesn't work the way you want it too does not mean it is broken.

As prior posted stated, the Damage Reduction (DR) is one of many issues with the new loot system, but that is a subset of more macro problems in new loot. However, DR does matter to the Player Community, and No_Worries continues to Dodge/Evade this issue in this forum. DR is one of many issues to resolve before CC goes live.

- The New Loot system being replicated into the Cannith Crafting system in terms of values and tiers, solidifies the New Loot System we now have. It's a cart before the horse issue. The cart = Cannith Crafting, and the horse/New Loot is broken, so why invent a new Cart to put on a broken horse?

- The Player Community is not in agreement with the Game Developers as to what the New Loot system became. Heck, we weren't even in agreement on the Players Council (PC), because that New Loot system - it launched without our PC getting a hack at it - at all. It was a sneak attack on the Player Community and the Players Council, and it was a yet-again botched release that took weeks to fix bugs toward (zero gear, among others) which included the inability to decompose gear (rumor has it that a Turbine employee was let go due to the New Loot being botched so badly, but regardless - it was botched). There was not an effective pre-release staffing of this system, or a Lam server preview that gave time/effort to critique it - it was an update that simply happened. The Dev's heard some players on Forum cheering the new system and I guess that's all they needed for confirmation that it didn't need more work, but - it needs significant work, frankly - an overhaul.

Cannith Crafting would be baselined and tiered up from this current New Loot system we have now. But - we need a new system. There are still many effects missing in the New Loot system that were mysteriously removed without any explanation on what stays, what goes (and why it is going away permanently). We should not accept, as a Player Community, such shoddy work and lack of details on game updates that Permanently Remove things from the game. There are separate thread about the New Loot system and the MIA lists of effects, do we really need to delve into them again here? Some of us tired from asking about, for example - Erosive effects (Disintegration, Stone Prison and Greater Stone Prison effects).

Why is Assassinate added to gear? It's an Enhancement choice, not an Ability or Skill! Why does that one Enhancement of the hundreds on Enhancement Trees get boosted in random loot gear??? I played a pure Rogue Assassin, I helped the Dev's while in PC to update Rogue, but this gear effect should have been eliminated from the game, and if the Assassinate effect is too weak then tweak the tree not the gear! But you know what? If we move ahead with Cannith Crafting, then you'll craft Assassinate - forever, which should not be there in the first place.

What happened to the 2-slot gear? Why did that go away? For the sake of CC later? 2-slot gear was a rare loot that the Player Community did not ever say was "bad" or over-powered, yet it is gone now, why?

Where's the random loot clickies gear and why did it go away Permanently? What do you intend to do with clickies in CC?

The New Loot system introduced a new way to isolate effects to specific gear items. This was not acceptable to many in the Player Community. If we move forward with CC, then the isolating of those effects could become permanent also in the CC system and force us to isolate effects (there is no clear explanation of this, yet, in this forum). However, back to my main point - there should be debate as to whether the New Loot system continues to function this way!

Do not put the Cart before the Horse or CC is DOA.

[Razor_Wit]

It would be nice if you continued to let us craft on Trinkets. Can we have some drop more frequently? How about being btcoe so we can craft and trade? New and assorted art/icon for them would be cool too.

[Free2Pay]

Cannith Crafting needs to be streamlined. All crafting systems need to be consolidated. We heard that time and again and what better time to do it (and do it right) than now.

As long as there are mods on random loot that can't be crafted via Cannith Crafting, Cannith Crafting will always feel incomplete. Paralyzing, Vorpal, Disruption etc, need to be craftable. They are already very situational weapon effect and their potencies only last for a few levels (before being out-performed by raw dps weapons). Heck even their "potencies" can be questioned when they hardly seem to scale well on elite difficulty (let alone Epic).

Cannith Crafting will not make Random Loot obsolete. Not for a properly designed random loot system anyway. The main reason why most random loot are vendor trash is because of the very poor itemization and poor scaling (**** DC) effects of weapons for the level of which they dropped as compared to the actual level of their effectiveness. Meaning the loot that dropped at level X is only semi "useful" at level X-3 etc. You get the point??

[Faltout]

If we use random loot as a guideline (this is some back of the napkin math looking at the items in the Cannith AH):

+2 = ML 5
+3 = ML 6
+4 = ML 11 (only 3 items available, so probably closer to ML 9)
+5 = ML 12
+6 = ML 14
+7 = ML 16
+8 = ML 19
+9 = ML 22
+10 = ML 24/25
+11 = ML 27/28
+12 and above = ML 30+

I have been looking at the AH for a bit longer and here's what I came up with:
The non-masterful craftsmanship maximums are:
+1 = ML1
+2 = ML3
+3 = ML4
+4 = ML6
+5 = ML8
+6 = ML10
+7 = ML14
+8 = ML16
+9 = ML20
+10 = ML22
+11 = ML24
+12 = ML27
+13 - +17 = ML30 - L40
I have not examined any ML30 loot because I don't know from what level chest it came from. The low MLs may also be wrong because there are not that many ML1-ML3 in the auction house.
As you can see, the power ranges do not follow a linear increase formula. It starts with a +1 every 2 levels but then it stops for the levels 10-20. 10-14 for +6 to become +7, 14-16 for +7 to become +8 and 16-20 for +8 to become +9.
And then +12 would not appear till ML27. And even if my data is slightly wrong and ML16 has a +12, then ML28 or ML29 should definitely have +13. They do not however. So, the increase is a bit irregular in levels 20-30 as well. Every 2 levels at first and then every 3 levels.
So if the increase is every 3 levels, how come we have +17 items? That tells me that within the levels 30-40, the increase may be every 2 levels. (which would make +18 items possible at level 40)

Random loot uses a range, crafting will be set at the top of the range from the way I read it. A good linguine would be ML/2 (round up) from what I've seen. Basically what it was in the ols system, sans masterful, through +6 items. It may be a bit lower at the top end, or maybe not due to what random stuff we've seen having a wider possible range.

See above, the power ranges do not increase with a linear formula.

no DC schools? have i mis-read something? was used to create say a +2 necro ring or whatever.

The DC schools are the spell lores in group 2.
From my data, a ML5 item will have a +2 necro DC.
ML19 item will have a +4 necro DC.
ML29 item will have a +5 necro DC (although that may not be completely accurate)

Deathblock should, in my opinion, be craftable at lower levels considering you can already drink deathward potions as early as level 1 (yes, level 1; there's no ML on the eternal or regular DW potions).

Deathblock in random loot currently appears at ML1, so there's no question there.

Which is, um.... pretty much exactly what I said? "You can put *this* and *that* on goggles but not on a belt." He also specifically states, in the quote that you yourself quoted, that "A shard won't be defined as prefix/suffix/extra." To repeat: It WILL NOT BE defined as a prefix/suffix/extra. Which, to my mind, translates that you can put three suffices on, or three prefices, or one of one and two of the other, because it won't be defined as prefix/suffix/extra. But you can't put the same stuff on boots, hats, gloves, and belts. But the stuff you can put on a particular item? It won't matter if you do A of B with extra C, or B of A with extra C, or C of B with extra A, or any other combination thereof. Which seems to gel with what I've seen of random loot where I've seen pretty much everything as a prefix *and* a suffix (with a few outliers like Spot which don't seem to have a prefix).

There are not prefix or suffix shards. However, an effect can still only go in a particular prefix, suffix, or extra slot given the item type.

Based on NoWorries' post and what we're seeing in random loot, the effects themselves are not defined/classified as a prefix or suffix on the shard you're making. However, each effect is a prefix, a suffix or a bonus effect in a specific item slot.

For example: Strength can be found as a prefix in bracers and gloves with the name "Mighty". It can also be found as a suffix in boots and belts as a suffix with the name "of Strength". You will not be able to find strength in any other item slot and you will not be able to find it as a suffix in bracers and gloves, or a prefix in boots and belts. So if you make a strength shard, you'll be able to place it as a prefix in bracers and gloves or a suffix in boots and belts. And once you do that, you can't place any other prefixes in bracers and gloves or suffixes in boots and belts.

Is ANYBODY happy that more collectables are being added?

Um.....yay?

YES. It increases the cost of each individual crafted item, which was needed since the power of each crafted item is almost the same as random loot while the cost was much less.

That's only a piece of the puzzle. Some enchantments are exclusive to Cannith crafting for instance. Do we know what slots those enchantments will be craftable on?

You're certainly entitled to worry about whatever you feel like. It's my opinion though that's it's a non-issue and ridiculously unlikely and your blood pressure is better off spent worrying about actual problems that exist rather than a design omission that would be totally counter-intuitive and downright bizarre if it actually became an issue.

Yes:

Metalline - Prefix, weapons/shields
Alligned - prefix, weapons/shields
Everbright - suffix, weapons/shields
Blueshine - prefix, armor
Ghost Touch - prefix, weapons/shields
Invulnerability - suffix, armor/shield
Vengeful - prefix, weapons/shields
Unbalancing - prefix, armor/shield/cloak/ring
Twilight - prefix, armor
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity - prefix, ring/(trinket)/gloves
Songblade - prefix, weapons/shields
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst - suffix, weapons/shields
Regeneration - suffix, ring
Persuasion - suffix, hat/goggles/ring/(trinket)
Fearsome - prefix, armor
Silver Flame - prefix, hat/Armor/Ring/(Trinket)/Necklace/Weapons/Shield
Sacred - prefix, hat/Armor/Ring/(Trinket)/Necklace/Weapons/Shield
Eternal Faith - suffix, hat/Armor/Ring/(Trinket)/Necklace/Weapons/Shield
Efficient Metamagic - prefix, (trinket)
Blindness Immunity - prefix, goggles/ring/(trinket)
True Seeing - suffix, goggles/(trinket)

Those are lists of exclusive effects. Since the effects will be in both Random Loot and Cannith, they do not belong on either list. The lists are accurate at this time.

But the lists with the groups of effects are not accurate at this time.
There are several effects missing (some non-scaling, but you've already included a non-scaling effect like vampirism in group 3).

[dunklezhan]

Let us waste our time with them. find it out. Personally, I rather have both useless and useful, than be limited and have options narrowed...
Am I the only to think this?

No you aren't alone, but the enhancement pass showed that the Devs (or a particular but important Dev, I don't know) don't agree with you. One of the stated goals was to get rid of 'useless' enhancements that their data showed people didn't take. So you'll not win that argument I'm afraid, not now, the ship has sailed.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...So if you make a strength shard, you'll be able to place it as a prefix in bracers and gloves or a suffix in boots and belts. And once you do that, you can't place any other prefixes in bracers and gloves or suffixes in boots and belts...

To isolate this quote - what you just described is yet another reason why New Loot is broken, and it would carry over to Cannith Crafting if implemented in this way. The silly restrictions on specific Abilities such as this, instead of a Flexible system, are broken for both the Random loot and the Crafting system.

Do we need to start taking Polls to see what the Player Community thinks of these changes to the Loot system? I can only guestimate, but we'd see >50% of the player base disagree with those restrictions to Ability placement in gear, and would want more Flexibility.

EDIT: And yet another reason to demand New Loot System be fixed before the Cannith Crafting update, we have a Turbine employee acknowledging that All Scaling Damage Effects on Ranged Weapons are not Working as Intended (WAI), and only 1d6 damage is being delivered regardless how much damage the item states!

So now, here I go, off to inform 20+ Guild Members online that our concerns are validated.

Turbine, is it sinking in yet that Quality Control is a significant issue in your company?

[mikarddo]

To isolate this quote - what you just described is yet another reason why New Loot is broken, and it would carry over to Cannith Crafting if implemented in this way. The silly restrictions on specific Abilities such as this, instead of a Flexible system, are broken for both the Random loot and the Crafting system.

Do we need to start taking Polls to see what the Player Community thinks of these changes to the Loot system? I can only guestimate, but we'd see >50% of the player base disagree with those restrictions to Ability placement in gear, and would want more Flexibility.

EDIT: And yet another reason to demand New Loot System be fixed before the Cannith Crafting update, we have a Turbine employee acknowledging that All Scaling Damage Effects on Ranged Weapons are not Working as Intended (WAI), and only 1d6 damage is being delivered regardless how much damage the item states!

So now, here I go, off to inform 20+ Guild Members online that our concerns are validated.

Turbine, is it sinking in yet that Quality Control is a significant issue in your company?

Flexible or not is a design decision. Calling it broken because you dont agree just makes you lose credibility.
Player polls would mean very little. A player poll would probably show a majority for quite alot of things that would be unhealthy for the game.
I agree there are numerous bugs with random loot and that having those fixed would be good. However, that certainly does not make the system broken as far as I am concerned.

[Faltout]

Question: I see Vampirism as a 3rd group effect which means you think vampirism is useful and should be a high level shard. Are you aware that the new vampirism effect (the one that shows the effect on the item twice and has a d2 heal) has an internal timer of 1 or 2 seconds thus making it completely useless?

Or is it meant to scale the healing and doesn't? (It's the only non-scaling effect you've placed on that list)

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Flexible or not is a design decision...

And? Who made that decision that affected the entire Player Community, without any Player Community feedback, without any Player Council feedback??? Are you satisfied with Stealth Draconian oversight of this game? I'm not, and I find it "broken" all the same, because we went from one "version" of this game to a different version in the New Loot system we now have. Why? It appears as a "Stealth Nerf" to power creep!

In the New Loot System:
- DR is Broken, that's a fact.
- Ranged weapon Scaling is Broken, that's a fact (acknowledged last night by a Turbine employee).
- Rare Effects went Missing, and we didn't even know they went missing, at first, because they were so rare we didn't even know to complain at the time. "Erosive" was one of the most rare effects in game, more rare than Vorpal and Paralyzing, at the time it was available. Now, that effect and many others are gone permanently from the game, but, you wouldn't know better since you didn't expect to loot Erosive items that often in Old Loot. It is only now, months later, that we fully realize that many of our Rare effects are permanently removed from the game, and I find that broken!
- New Loot resulted in a long period of time where gear could not be properly Decomposed in Crafting, that was broken for the longest time also.
- Zero stat gear, also somewhat fixed (some Insightfuls still come up +0), but was broken at time of implementation.
- Clickie Gear is permanently removed from all but the few Quest lines that offer BTA Clickies due to Old Loot still generating in End Quest rewards. I find that - broken.

Let's face it, in retrospect, the New Loot System implementation was a poorly planned, poorly executed effort.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I have been looking at the AH for a bit longer and here's what I came up with:
snip

That's some good info. Thanks.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

To isolate this quote - what you just described is yet another reason why New Loot is broken, and it would carry over to Cannith Crafting if implemented in this way. The silly restrictions on specific Abilities such as this, instead of a Flexible system, are broken for both the Random loot and the Crafting system.

Do we need to start taking Polls to see what the Player Community thinks of these changes to the Loot system? I can only guestimate, but we'd see >50% of the player base disagree with those restrictions to Ability placement in gear, and would want more Flexibility.

EDIT: And yet another reason to demand New Loot System be fixed before the Cannith Crafting update, we have a Turbine employee acknowledging that All Scaling Damage Effects on Ranged Weapons are not Working as Intended (WAI), and only 1d6 damage is being delivered regardless how much damage the item states!

So now, here I go, off to inform 20+ Guild Members online that our concerns are validated.

Turbine, is it sinking in yet that Quality Control is a significant issue in your company?

I wish rings would still be the "anything goes" slot that they were. (And still are in current CC).

I think there was so much more flexibility in old random loot/cc with flexible shards, etc.

New random loot was/is a HUGE FAIL in every way imaginable.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

And? Who made that decision that affected the entire Player Community, without any Player Community feedback, without any Player Council feedback??? Are you satisfied with Stealth Draconian oversight of this game? I'm not, and I find it "broken" all the same, because we went from one "version" of this game to a different version in the New Loot system we now have. Why? It appears as a "Stealth Nerf" to power creep!

In the New Loot System:
- DR is Broken, that's a fact.
- Ranged weapon Scaling is Broken, that's a fact (acknowledged last night by a Turbine employee).
- Rare Effects went Missing, and we didn't even know they went missing, at first, because they were so rare we didn't even know to complain at the time. "Erosive" was one of the most rare effects in game, more rare than Vorpal and Paralyzing, at the time it was available. Now, that effect and many others are gone permanently from the game, but, you wouldn't know better since you didn't expect to loot Erosive items that often in Old Loot. It is only now, months later, that we fully realize that many of our Rare effects are permanently removed from the game, and I find that broken!
- New Loot resulted in a long period of time where gear could not be properly Decomposed in Crafting, that was broken for the longest time also.
- Zero stat gear, also somewhat fixed (some Insightfuls still come up +0), but was broken at time of implementation.
- Clickie Gear is permanently removed from all but the few Quest lines that offer BTA Clickies due to Old Loot still generating in End Quest rewards. I find that - broken.

Let's face it, in retrospect, the New Loot System implementation was a poorly planned, poorly executed effort.

And these things and MANY MANY MORE are the reason we all need to keep questioning, pushing, prodding.

And not just assume the devs have it under control like a poster on this thread suggested.

To assume things will be done correctly at this point is INSANITY.

[JOTMON]

I wish rings would still be the "anything goes" slot that they were. (And still are in current CC).

I think there was so much more flexibility in old random loot/cc with flexible shards, etc.

New random loot was/is a HUGE FAIL in every way imaginable.

It already looks like they will screw the crafting system with pigeon hole effects and limited crafting options.
Custom crafting is supposed to be a system that allows us to craft items to work around what we have or to fit effects into gear slots that are better suited..
At least with the old system the higher tiers of crafting opened up flexible crafting...

This limited choices crafting will ultimately screw the whole system..

[changelingamuck]

And these things and MANY MANY MORE are the reason we all need to keep questioning, pushing, prodding.

And not just assume the devs have it under control like a poster on this thread suggested.

To assume things will be done correctly at this point is INSANITY.

"a poster". That's actually not what I said. I was commenting about a specific worry that I considered unnecessary to fret over.

I think you can get over it at this point. I explicitly said that I didn't care to discuss it further. And I said that I regretted commenting in the first place. That was days ago. Unless you literally need a pound of flesh to be satisfied, I'd say it's safe to let it go.

I considered your perspective on the specific issue to be an over-the-top level of pessimism driven by an irrationally contemptuous low opinion of the developers. You considered my perspective to be devoid of what you consider a healthy level of suspicion.

The End. Story's Over. Time to Move On!

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

"a poster". That's actually not what I said. I was commenting about a specific worry that I considered unnecessary to fret over.

I think you can get over it at this point. I explicitly said that I didn't care to discuss it further. And I said that I regretted commenting in the first place. That was days ago. Unless you literally need a pound of flesh to be satisfied, I'd say it's safe to let it go.

I considered your perspective on the specific issue to be an over-the-top level of pessimism driven by an irrationally contemptuous low opinion of the developers. You considered my perspective to be devoid of what you consider a healthy level of suspicion.

The End. Story's Over. Time to Move On!

You're the one who keeps coming back to post. I think you need to take your own advice and move on. Some of us are still having a conversation about crafting and that may include references to other posts and what others have said. I didn't mean to upset you enough to make you post here again.

[changelingamuck]

You're the one who keeps coming back to post. I think you need to take your own advice and move on. Some of us are still having a conversation about crafting and that may include references to other posts and what others have said. I didn't mean to upset you enough to make you post here again.

Okay then! Ignore list it is then.