Cannith Crafting Discussion - Part 2

[Ulfo]

Soulstones.. another system that got under utilized and left unfinished.. and full of flaws...

still issues with trap the soul going back to the beginning of time...
~we have a whole list of trappable souls and only a few are actually usable..there is a large level range of trapped souls that are unusable.

I'm think we must be able deconstruct soul gems to essences.
CR10 = 1 ess
CR20 = 5 ess
CR30 = 10 ess.

Something like it.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Do we know yet if a blank having an augment slot will raise the ML of the item like the old crafting system did or how that will be handled?

[Greantun]

Do we know yet if a blank having an augment slot will raise the ML of the item like the old crafting system did or how that will be handled?

Just a guess, but because this post in the original thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5825194 that said "Blanks will still be blank. ML will be crafted on." and later on in the same post "As it is currently, if you find an item with an augment slot, it will stay when you blank." I believe that the ML will still be determined by the ML shard you put on, and the socket will not have any effect on it.

[Dragavon]

Do we know yet if a blank having an augment slot will raise the ML of the item like the old crafting system did or how that will be handled?

Not seen anyone from Turbine say anything about that.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Just a guess, but because this post in the original thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5825194 that said "Blanks will still be blank. ML will be crafted on." and later on in the same post "As it is currently, if you find an item with an augment slot, it will stay when you blank." I believe that the ML will still be determined by the ML shard you put on, and the socket will not have any effect on it.

That's what I was thinking as well. Much to my delight, because I have packs full of blanks with augment slots!

NoWorries if you get a second, will that be the case? Augment slots will not cause ML to be higher?

[Ebondevil]

Still, I agree that Masterful Craftsmanship shards should remain to allow the lowering of ML, even if it requires crafting at the maximum level.

There's little reason for Masterful Craftsmanship to lower the level of items with the new crafting system, take a runearm as an example

Lucid Dreams, ML 19 with +5 craftable

Before you could drop the ML to 17 which is admittedly quite good, but anything you actually added to it would shoot that ML back up to 20 almost instantly, so if you wanted to add anything to it, the Masterful craftsmanship didn't really do much.

In the New System, Adding an effect to that item is not going to increase it's ML, it will stay at 19, the Masterful Craftsmanship Shard should Hopefully, grant it an additional effect, so you'll be able to add 2 properties, both scalable up to ML 19, without increasing the ML of the item.

When Crafting Items from Blanks, there's no point in lowering the ML of an item as you get to set that anyway, and with the way most effects will scale based on the ML of the item, you'd end up spending the Masterful craftsmanship shard to reduce the ML of the item and the effects on that item, when you may as well have just crafted it at the lower ML in the first place.

Finally I seem to recall the Dev's mentioned a while back that Craftable Named items were something of a complex issue to handle, quite possibly due to interactions of Masterful Craftsmanship Shards on those items, I would be curious if we'd see an increase in the Number of Named items with Craftable slots on them after the Cannith Crafting changes. For that possibility I'd be all for changing the way Masterful Craftsmanship Shards work.

Another thing to consider is if they do a named item pass, will Craftable options be added to those named items with the changes to Masterful Craftsmanship shards?

[NoWorries]

Just a guess, but because this post in the original thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5825194 that said "Blanks will still be blank. ML will be crafted on." and later on in the same post "As it is currently, if you find an item with an augment slot, it will stay when you blank." I believe that the ML will still be determined by the ML shard you put on, and the socket will not have any effect on it.

Having an augment slot will not have an effect on the ML. Placing an augment into the slot that has a higher ML than the ML of the item will cause the ML to increase.

[PuppiesAndRainbows]

Having an augment slot will not have an effect on the ML. Placing an augment into the slot that has a higher ML than the ML of the item will cause the ML to increase.

Will this be true with 2 augment slot items?
I have several 1 colorless 1 yellow augment items.

Also: Will 2 augment items be dropping again?
Haven't seen any in a very long time.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Will this be true with 2 augment slot items?
I have several 1 colorless 1 yellow augment items.

Also: Will 2 augment items be dropping again?
Haven't seen any in a very long time.

Come to think of it, I stashed several 2 augment slot blanks but haven't SEEN ONE DROP in quite some time.

Anybody pulled a 2 augment slot piece of random loot lately?

[WilliamBraveheart]

Having an augment slot will not have an effect on the ML. Placing an augment into the slot that has a higher ML than the ML of the item will cause the ML to increase.

As Crafting is right now creating an item with an Augment slot has a higher ML than the same type without a slot so is this changing?
i.e a con 1 belt without slot is ML 1 While a con1 belt with slot is ml 5
Ergo having a slot does affect the ML

[Greantun]

As Crafting is right now creating an item with an Augment slot has a higher ML than the same type without a slot so is this changing?
i.e a con 1 belt without slot is ML 1 While a con1 belt with slot is ml 5
Ergo having a slot does affect the ML

Yes, as the fact you would have a blank with a slot, add an ML1 Shard to it, and then add a CON shard. The ML stays 1 (as you told it to create an ML1 item) and the CON shard adds CON to the max that ML1 can have.

[Aelonwy]

Having an augment slot will not have an effect on the ML. Placing an augment into the slot that has a higher ML than the ML of the item will cause the ML to increase.

With all due courtesy, would you please address the issues of damage reduction properties (Good/evil/law/chaos) in random loot not actually applying (breaking DR) and whether or not that is being fixed and how it will affect Cannith Crafting? Also, please, tell us is Banishing/Disruption/Smiting as well as the Improved/Greater/Sovereign variations returning to the random loot gen tables? Please.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

With all due courtesy, would you please address the issues of damage reduction properties (Good/evil/law/chaos) in random loot not actually applying (breaking DR) and whether or not that is being fixed and how it will affect Cannith Crafting? snip

This is a VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION. Can we please get some infoabout this.

At least we don't have to wonder why good weapons give evil essence and evil weapons give good essence anymore

[Grailhawk]

This is a VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION. Can we please get some infoabout this.

At least we don't have to wonder why good weapons give evil essence and evil weapons give good essence anymore

Nothing wrong with asking for clarification but pretty sure they are expecting weapon damage effects to be separate from weapon DR effects. It wouldn't make sense for a group 2 effect to do what a group 3 effect does and add damage on top of it.

Crafting Groups:
Group 2 (50):
Weapon Damages


Group 3(100):
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)

[MeliCat]

I missed the point about collectibles - and "new ones will drop in higher levels". This is another thing bad for new players - collecting essences and selling them was a way to make plat.

Have you thought about how new players get their economy going? Why are you making it harder?

I realize in recent times this way of making plat would not be as effective as most no longer craft, but you are also taking away basic items that you could craft as a new player (no find secret doors, no UWA) so that people will want to buy that...

I remember constantly being broke as a new player. Just an additional stress in a steep learning game. Not fun.

[Gremmlynn]

regardless of the semantics ..There is currently a lot of texting confusion..
.. can you ensure that texting for effects that can only be slotted in prefix are clearly defined in the description that it is a PREFIX only slottable, and the same for SUFFIX and EXTRA..
(even though I don't personally think the 'extra' effect should be craftable.. that is something that should be ingrained in the found randomgen items.. like augment slots)..

I read that as effects will not be designated as being prefix, suffix or extra, but will be slotable as long as the item is of the correct type and has any open slot available.

[Gremmlynn]

There's little reason for Masterful Craftsmanship to lower the level of items with the new crafting system, take a runearm as an example

Lucid Dreams, ML 19 with +5 craftable

Before you could drop the ML to 17 which is admittedly quite good, but anything you actually added to it would shoot that ML back up to 20 almost instantly, so if you wanted to add anything to it, the Masterful craftsmanship didn't really do much.

In the New System, Adding an effect to that item is not going to increase it's ML, it will stay at 19, the Masterful Craftsmanship Shard should Hopefully, grant it an additional effect, so you'll be able to add 2 properties, both scalable up to ML 19, without increasing the ML of the item.

When Crafting Items from Blanks, there's no point in lowering the ML of an item as you get to set that anyway, and with the way most effects will scale based on the ML of the item, you'd end up spending the Masterful craftsmanship shard to reduce the ML of the item and the effects on that item, when you may as well have just crafted it at the lower ML in the first place.

Finally I seem to recall the Dev's mentioned a while back that Craftable Named items were something of a complex issue to handle, quite possibly due to interactions of Masterful Craftsmanship Shards on those items, I would be curious if we'd see an increase in the Number of Named items with Craftable slots on them after the Cannith Crafting changes. For that possibility I'd be all for changing the way Masterful Craftsmanship Shards work.

Another thing to consider is if they do a named item pass, will Craftable options be added to those named items with the changes to Masterful Craftsmanship shards?

I think what is wanted is for MC to craft items as if the ML were 2 higher. I.E. crafting an item at ML9 and having the effects scale to max for ML11.

[Gremmlynn]

I missed the point about collectibles - and "new ones will drop in higher levels". This is another thing bad for new players - collecting essences and selling them was a way to make plat.

Have you thought about how new players get their economy going? Why are you making it harder?

I realize in recent times this way of making plat would not be as effective as most no longer craft, but you are also taking away basic items that you could craft as a new player (no find secret doors, no UWA) so that people will want to buy that...

I remember constantly being broke as a new player. Just an additional stress in a steep learning game. Not fun.

Vending lootgen seems to work. Having started characters on new, f2p, accounts lately. The biggest issue I've seem was spending enough to keep below the f2p plat cap.

Also, while I can see Detect Secret Door items as being something that will be missed (though, really they just make secret doors kind of silly to put into content in the first place), why do so many see UWA as being so essential when a stack of cheap potions works as well and last a long time as often as it's really needed?

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Good and Evil damage are included; they scale like all other elemental damage bonuses. So a weapon with a good effect at say ML15 adds 3d6 good damage (numbers are guessed, I don't know the exact numbers). The issue with current loot gen is that these do not add the damage properties to the weapon so that they break DR. So being able to craft basic good/evil damage is worthless, as they do not break DR, and noworries has pretty well ignored the fact that they are broken.

I don't agree with this, if this is in fact the direction the Dev's are taking.

There's a reason Holy and Pure Good are two different effects, because they offer two different damage amounts. In fact, the select group of Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, and Anarchic are apparently being bypassed in this update.

A Holy effect in current crafting could be added by itself and result in level 2 wield, while producing 2-12 points of damage (an excellent boost at Level 2 wield). Will we see that level of damage from a generic alignment craft into the gear? Apparently not, which is why we players should expect more, and specifically - expect to see those 4 x effects left in the Game.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I said you can change the bags that way that they can handle several stacks of the same item much like the Crafting Storage do. This way you don't have any stack going into your inventory.
It's recommend to read all.

Yes, you're right, it's recommended to read all. If you had, you would've seen my response to that: It would require recoding the bags. They'd likely have to be recoded to the point where it would be faster to start over. This is a lot of developer work and time that I think would be better spent elsewhere.

There is no reason to not do an automatically change if you can and it is better in any case!

That's one opinion. My opinion is I'd rather not, thanks. Since they're NOT going to recode the bags entirely from scratch, I'd much rather have them not automatically change and explode my inventory.

If you have no use for the old versions, beside the conversion to the new version by hand, why should I have not the new version right now and all at once?
This are just excuses or a sign of the incapacity to do the right steps.

Yeahhhh, recoding the bags from scratch is just an excuse. While I would be all for this, I want the goal to be "so we can rename the bags", not "so we can have multiple stacks of the same thing in the bag." And also, a side goal of the store bags being freakin' BtA because BtC sucks and needs to die painfully, especially when store items are involved. But that's another topic.

If you want the new version all at once? It won't really take that long. Even with all the stacks you have. It'll take you longer to do anything with them than to convert them.

And to be honest, you sounds like someone who would tell exactly the opposite if a developer would proclaim an automatically change. And you would have everything at its place after the patch, without inventory overflow or something.

Um, what? No. I'd be arguing against it. Because my crafting storage is currently nearly full, and I'm not entirely convinced that the essences in there would combine enough to be able to handle the overflow from the bag. And I'm even less convinced that I wouldn't simply lose the essence because of a lack of inventory space. My crafter's inventory is currently full of stuff that needs deconning, and all that overflow would just go into the aether. And while USUALLY things return when you clear a stack, I wouldn't trust it to. And even if I did trust it to... I wouldn't necessarily trust an auto-conversion to not lose stuff. No, thanks, I'll do it by hand. It won't take that long.

Just to mention it, I have to handle 350 stacks of lesser essences (10k each) and 275 stacks of greater essences (1k each) and therefore I am far beyond the point I would use bags to handle them.
And I am thankful they introduced the account Crafting Storage!

I am very pessimistic there will be an automatically change because its predictable they go the cheap and easy way. But at least I don't miss the chance to say, this is not something I cheer for.

I know this is only something with a tiny effect for the system performance but you still have additional code running. This most likely until DDO dies and if you have the policy to always go this way, it add up over time and you have a bad system performance at the end, just only because you have a lot old useless code running.

So instead of the code for the recipes (I figure 5 - 1x, 10x, 100x, 1,000x, and 10,000x)... you'll have the code for the auto-conversion. Which will have to scour inventory, personal bank, and any bags found therein for EVERY character; have to scour the AH and mails; have to scour the shared bank and every bag therein and the crafting bank for EVERY account; and then doing the same thing on EVERY server; and then either it hanging around (just like the recipes) or deleting it in the next patch and hope something didn't go wrong with an account that didn't sign on. OR you have it doing this every time a character logs in.

Yeah, I don't see that making an improvement, performance-wise. And they'd probably have to take the worlds down for 2 days while they did it.

The bag change I suggested, would be clearly an improvement for the game not only to make a conversation possible.
But the whole bag system could be changed to a character Crafting Storage and then you could remove all different kinds of bags from the game.
The bag rename thing might appear as a good idea, but is only some kind of handling a bad system.
The account Crafting Storage is a quite good model, just some kind of organization inside, similar to the collectables bag, could be nice.
Therefore also here, replace the old system with a better new one and you get a better system performance and a better handing of the game for the players over time.
This is how evolution works, if the nature would handle it in the same way as DDO do, you would have five different noses in your face or something.

Oh yes, the bags could be changed and improved in a whole lot of ways. I'm not arguing that at all. The problem is, they can't be doing this without developers spending time on it... and let's be realistic, that's not going to happen. They're not going to spend time on something that works to make it better. Not when there are so many other changes that need doing.

And I would be extremely, EXTREMELY, leery of any kind of mass, wholesale change. And generally speaking, so are the devs, because every time there's a change of this nature (when they changed augment slots, for instance) they haven't gone on a worldswide spree, but instead simply put a recipe in the Stone of Change to switch the item over.