Cannith Crafting Discussion - Part 2

[NoWorries]

I know players have been awaiting more information on the Cannith Crafting Revamp, so without further ado let's jump right in.

Part I of the discussion, with additional information not repeated in this post, can be found here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ing-Discussion


All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.



Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school with have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040


The Treasure Level of Cannith will likely end up capping at what would be ML 34, instead of ML 33 as previously mentioned.



Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.


Crafting Groups:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism


Natural Armor is considered insightful so it would show up in the first insightful tier.


Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.


Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.


Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.


Disjunction will still exist and will prep the item for new Cannith crafting (items previously disjuncted with the old system would need to have disjunction applied again to set them up to be used with the new system).


Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).


As always, everything above is subject to change for any number of reasons.

[edrein]

Nice to see negative heal amp, but will the new craftable vampirism effect work with undead form/repair based toons in their native healing types? As it stands playing an undead is dead, no pun intended.

[Frogger1234]

The school with have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040

So if I have a character with max levels in all 3 schools, the XP in each school gets added together and they come out around level 260?

[pjw]

Two questions:

1, how much grind to get the xp ? 650k sounds like a lot
2, how does difficulty relate to crafting level and success rates?

[Lerl]

I have three questions:

Where is Deathblock going to be?

What about the collectibles that enable you to do Eldritch effects on your gear? I still use those.

What about just utilizing the unused collectibles for recipes? And how will we get the items we trade collectibles for now, such as jump +20 pots, fire shield pots, House D stat and skill boost pots, and specialty ammo?

Other than the above, it looks OK to me.

[Frogger1234]

Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Will there also be traders for the new collectables, or will the new collectables be exclusively used in crafting?

[Grailhawk]

Single School
Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school with have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040

So some one with all 3 schools maxed today (245,715 total exp) will be put at what level ~260?

Crafting Difficulty
Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.

Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty

Difficulty = Crafter level in this example?

[Frogger1234]

Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Feather Fall Effect
Underwater Action Effect (being added into the random loot system)
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)

I'm glad to see Ghostbane coming back (though hopefully not at the original drop frequency).

I think Feather Fall and Underwater Action should remain craftable. I've crafted a lot of these for new players, and they just don't seem that special compared to other items in the list.

I don't think I've seen clickies drop in ages. Does this mean they will drop? Or be craftable?

[Lerl]

Another question: How does the Artificer bonus to Cannith Crafting work? Will that still be a thing? And if they have the Dragon Mark of Making?

[Frogger1234]

How will the presence of augment slot(s) on the base item effect crafting results?

[Grailhawk]

Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.

So say I want to create a ML 20 item with False Life and Insightful False Life on it how does that work? assuming I'm at crafter level 260.

Craft ML 20 shard difficulty 200
Craft False Life Shard difficulty 50
Craft Insightful False Life Shard difficulty 175
Apply to Item

Since I'm level 260 I would think i have 100% chance to craft all those shards?

Is that correct?

[DrawingGuy]

Woo! I actually liked the old Cannith crafting system, and used it heavily back in the day it was still relevant. A few questions/concerns:

- Exchange rate for the single essence system. How will lessers convert? Will they be 1 > 1 as well? Are they now worthless? For those of us that have spent many hours sundering greaters due to the unbalanced consumption rate, it's welcome news to not have to do that anymore, but also faces a concern depending which direction you go. If lessers are worthless, those that sundered thousands of greaters for their crafting stockpiles essentially spent a lot of time throwing materials in the trash. If lessers are also 1-1, then it would be stupid to not sunder all of your greaters before the change since you get multiples for your mats. Would it be possible to do a more value-equivalent exchange rate?

- Will you be able to craft 3 abilities onto the new crafted gear so that it can compete with random loot?

- Could we have "Enhanced Ki" as a craftable ability? It is an affect that has only seen the light of day once since the U19 MOTU update - and even that item (Visions of Precision) faces the issue that all of its stats are overshadowed by random loot and new loot. Having it craftable (or drop on random loot) will help break that painful dry spell for something that is so crucial to a key mechanic for Monks. Reinforced fists/Greater Reinforced would be nice as well, but those at least have seen a few scattered items for it over the years.

[Faltout]

The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.

I guess the difficulty ranges mean that shards will be distributed across those levels, not fall all on the same level...
Also, what's with the 425 level? You said levels cap at 400. Or does this mean that we won't be able to craft unbound insightful shards of the 3rd group?

Crafting Groups:

Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism

Is a scaling version of melee/ranged alacrity being added to random loot?

Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Feather Fall Effect
Underwater Action Effect (being added into the random loot system)
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)

That's good news. However, banishing, disruption, smiting do not exist in current random loot. Neither does destruction.
And you forgot to put feeding and draining in that list. I didn't see them among the craftable effects while they are (in a non scaling form) in random loot.

Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing

Great!
What about Holy/Good/Evil etc.? Does this mean random loot alignment damages are indeed a bug and they will have their DR breaking with the update?

Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.

Where? Our ingredient bags have space to store more unique ingredients, but only 2500 of the same.

Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.

So crafted shards will no longer be deconstructed? (since they don't have a ML)
And a shard crafted at level 400 placed into a ML1 item will reward the same amount of essences as the first shard you can craft from the crafting tutorial?

Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. To help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).

That's GREAT news. I hope your try to make monsters in FR drop treasure bags will not end in a huge bug.

THINGS NOT COVERED HERE:
1. What about Cannith challenge items and runearms that are currently craftable?
2. How will the actual shard crafting system look like? Identical to the previous one? With chances of crafting above 50%?
3. How will the xp look like? Still with diminishing xp from crafting shards multiple times?
4. Will the crafting tutorial be updated?
5. Will you consider flexible shards with less power?
6. Will the unbound shards have less power than bound or will the cost much more per item? (because if 1 max crafter can make everything unbound, no player on the server needs random loot anymore except the ultra lucky drops)

CONCERNS:
1. What about bug fixing of the random loot effects? Like combat mastery providing insightful bonus, spell resistance stacking with regular resistance, spell penetration not having a name, speed hiding the other effect, alignment damages not bypassing DR, weapon damages not scaling in ranged weapons and maybe other stuff that don't come to mind right now?
2. I thought of something earlier and can't remember now. I'll post if I remember it.

[Tricosene]

Will the single essence change apply to trapmaking?

[dunklezhan]

As with last time, I am happy with the general thrust, but my views around comparative power levels remain unchanged especially if there are going to be things exclusive to both random loot and cannith.

If that is the case, there is no reason I can comprehend why they should't produce equivalent power, since the whole reason for not allowing equivalent power was supposedly to make sure each had their own unique selling points. Now they definitely do - so why can't they have their own power level?

Also if it caps out at 400 I assume anything which could be higher, such as the 425 unbound insightful, will simply not be available. Were the equivalent to random loot in terms of power possible for the bound side, I would have no problem with unbound not being possible to make. But it isn't.

Therefore, I would prefer that the crafting skill of 400 represented the pinnacle of bound crafted loot, but that crafting levels went up to whatever they needed to so as to enable you to ultimately be able to make it unbound. In your current plan that's still a big chunk of power less than lootgen can create, so I don't understand the there either.

I know that this will not change anything about the design on either score, its got the smell of 'set in stone' about it. I'm not going to come back and argue my point back and forth like last time, but I did just want to express my frustration again at the equivalent-power cap for Cannith.

I was not a fan of that to begin with, but in light of the additional 'uniqueness' that's to be designed into the two systems I really just don't see the need for power disparity on the shared effects to remain a part of the design.

Thanks, NoWorries, for taking the time to consult - I don't believe my feedback's going to change anything at all, but I do appreciate the effort.

[Cleanincubus]

I hope Underwater Action items start dropping plentifully then, if we're not going to be able to craft them anymore. UWA has become a pretty essential part of the game, just like Feather Falling. I haven't seen an old or new random loot UWA item since the system change.

I HATE the fact we're going to have to get more Collectables. What is the obsession with adding Collectables and Ingredients all the time? Constant expanding the amount of mats with every Update, but not being able to add storage space, because of technical limitations, is a serious issue. Sure, 24 Ingredients are being removed (counting 1 of the Dissolver/Remover.) But while we're losing those from the Ingredients bags, we're gaining more that have to go in the Collectable bags. I have 7 or 8 characters that already have full Small & Medium Collectable bags, that are full of Collectables that don't work with Cannith Crafting. It's certainly better than making us use Skill/Stat Tomes or rare items, but still a poor decision IMHO.

Are we not going to be able to exchange Lesser Essences for the new essence?

Will crafted weapons with specific Weapon DR actually bypass DR? Will Random Loot weapons be fixed to bypass DR?

[Faltout]

Will the single essence change apply to trapmaking?

Yes. He said so in the previous thread.

[Free2Pay]

So do we finally get to craft Paralyzing / Vorpal now using Cannith crafting?

[Chacka_DDO]

Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.

So we can destroy our lesser essences after U32 or will they be removed automatically from the game?

[dunklezhan]

So do we finally get to craft Paralyzing / Vorpal now using Cannith crafting?

No.

Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Feather Fall Effect
Underwater Action Effect (being added into the random loot system)
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.