LE, Melee Rangers, And You!

[Arlathen]

Do you play a Melee Ranger in LE? Then I have questions for you!

1. Playing a straight-up 20 Ranger or some super-secret-awesome multiclass?
2. Do you (honestly) feel you do enough damage, mano-a-mano, with a LE Mob?
3. HOW are you doing that damage?

And the Million Dollar question:

4. How are you surviving the hits?!

Answers please!

Feel free to offer opinionated, anecdotal views on Melee Rangers too..

[Axeyu]

1. Pure ranger. You lose too much from MC'ing.
2. Yes, rangers have really high DPS.
3. Spec into tempest and DWS, grab human damage boost and use LD destiny.
4. Get as much con and PRR as you can basically. Don't be afraid to put your level ups into con instead of str.

[kgoodson3]

Most are going to tell you 20 Ranger is best. It is not best it is a choice. 15 Ranger gets you everything you need from the Ranger base (2 level 4 spells) and you can supplement with 5 Levels of other classes to balance it out to taste.

This is what you lose from 18 and 20 Ranger:
Tempest- 5% doublestrike, 10% off-hand, +5 Incorp, +4 Dex, 25% off hand doublestrike, +10 MP, PRR, MRR, and 2 PRR/MRR from cores
DWS- Mark of the Hunted, 10% fort bypass

Nearly all tempests will spend 60 pts in enhancements (37ish in Tempest, 23ish in DWS) leaving 20ish pts to play with.

This is what you can gain from multiclasses:
3 Levels Paladin/Fighter Stalwart/Sacred Defender- 25 PRR, MRR (6pts) (not to mention extra saves if you go Paladin)
2 Levels Cleric Warpriest- Divine Might, Smite Weakness (applies both mainhand and offhand hit), 10 PRR (10pts)
1 Level Fighter Kensai- Haste Boost, Extra action boosts (4-10pts)
2 - 3 Levels Rogue Assassin- Venomed Blades, 2d6 or 3d6 sneak attack
2 Levels Barbarian Occult Slayer- Ear Smash (no save stun), 12 PRR (9pts)

Combine any of these classes/presitges add 20 enhancement points and you really aren't losing anything....it's just a choice to your play taste.

[Morroiel]

This is what you lose from 18 and 20 Ranger:
Tempest- 5% doublestrike, 10% off-hand, +5 Incorp, +4 Dex, 25% off hand doublestrike, +10 MP, PRR, MRR, and 2 PRR/MRR from cores
DWS- Mark of the Hunted, 10% fort bypass

This is A LOT to give up. There isn't 5 levels of anything that will be worth this. If you want to multiclass with ranger, your best bet is looking at 2/5/6/12 split points (e.g. 12 ranger/x/y or x/y/2 ranger , etc).

I promise you, I have done the math - there isn't a net dps benefit from splashing 1-5 levels of other classes in.

[Morroiel]

Advice:

1) Trash mobs should be fought while cced (dc caster or dire charge if you took it)

2) Red named mobs should be fought with their back facing you unless you have aggro.

3) Double deception items are important for melees (masque + strange tidings = win ; there are other alternative combos too!)

4) Triple Positive is your friend

5) Displacement clickies are absolutely necessary (on a melee I wouldn't step into LE without 8-10)

6) Don't ignore AC - don't double down on it but you should have nat armor, protection, etc slotted

7) Know which mobs you can afford to have aggro and which ones you cant. If you don't have prr and hp pls, you probably can't facetank pt2 shroud mobs like devil.

8) Get better twitch skills - if a mob turns to attack someone next to you, try to be outside of his attack hitbox

9) LGS HP set or single hp item

10) Sustainability - your goal is to be able to survive 1 hit from the mob you want to facetank. As long as you can do that, and you can heal back to full before they hit you again you can facetank them. Itemize to do this.

11) Don't forget to use elaborate parry!

[Enderoc]

Spend two feats for Heavy Armor, One for combat expertise, invest in spellcraft, choose scion of Earth, twist improved combat expertise.

[Morroiel]

Spend two feats for Heavy Armor, One for combat expertise, invest in spellcraft, choose scion of Earth, twist improved combat expertise.

Do not do this.

On LE, your goal is to get effective hp at 3000-3500. Anything more than that is a waste as you'll still be two shot.

As a ranger, you should be taking the survivalist enhancements in dws. Those + maxing your dodge is a much better defensive option than spending 2 feats on heavy armor. The fact that the poster suggested this speaks volumes.

Scion of earth is an option - if you don't have the prr past lives and hp past lives I would recommend it. However, if you do have those past lives or even some of them - you'd be better served with: scion of ethereal, scion of air, or scion of arborea. Basically do a quick calculation: HP / (100 / (100 + prr)) = effective hp. If the prr from scion of earth pushes you over 3300 effective hp, don't take it otherwise do.

Investing in spellcraft won't do anything for him.... heal is the skill that boosts devotion / positive spell power.

First off even if he did take the crappy combat expertise - he shouldn't have to twist in the improved stance.... he should be in legendary dreadnaught. Run in LD, with precision on.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Spend two feats for Heavy Armor, One for combat expertise, invest in spellcraft, choose scion of Earth, twist improved combat expertise.

why are you playing ranger at that point?

a lot of good things about ranger require light armor. might as well just be a twf barb or fighter then.

[acdcrocks]

nvm

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I know this is not what you want to hear....but....

In LE, I would be using a bow.

But for melee (actually same goes for any combat style in LE IMO)
I do my best not to get agro!
Let some other smoe go in first.
Then pounce on the monster's behind.

Use whatever CC tricks you have, pounce on those monsters that someone else has CCed.

Bring friends.

Work together.

That is how to survive LE IMO.

(but yeah... I know.... people can now make high defense builds and actually tank a little in LE now....)

[BigErkyKid]

Do you play a Melee Ranger in LE? Then I have questions for you!

1. Playing a straight-up 20 Ranger or some super-secret-awesome multiclass?
2. Do you (honestly) feel you do enough damage, mano-a-mano, with a LE Mob?
3. HOW are you doing that damage?

And the Million Dollar question:

4. How are you surviving the hits?!

Answers please!

Feel free to offer opinionated, anecdotal views on Melee Rangers too..

The way the game is coded is very weird in LE.

1. Burst heals are a must: being able to top HP bar, because at half health it is unlikely you can resist extra hits.

2. HP+PRR to a point: since Mobs hit so extremely hard the gains from those defensive options are a step function. There is a wide range of values for which the additional HP and PRR does nothing, since you get 2 shot blasted anyway.

3. To be missed chances: is IMHO where the secret sauce is. No reasonable toon can take many hits in a row. Hence, at some point avoiding being hit starts trumping heavily marginal increases in standard tankiness. Displacement clickies and take a second look at dodge. There has been an enormous increase in dodge stacking options.

Right now LE raids a a mini game within DDO. What applies there does not apply elsewhere, even in legendary quests. It is not just scaled up difficulty, it simply bypasses a lot of the standard mechanics in DDO.

The easiest way to play LE raids is avoiding the issue of melee altogether. Shiradi aberrations can now have very high sustainable dps and you won't have to deal with mrr, grazing hits, or the insane incoming damage.

Otherwise some ranged room for mini boss kiting, a good cc wizard, a few max dps melees if you must for bursting down targets and monkchers to deal a few well placed furyshots. That I would say is the way to go and I'm not sure you need any never at all.

[Arlathen]

1. Destinies
Comments are pointing to the use of LD as the destiny of choice, but I've been believing that other destinies may offer more for LE. This also rings true if you take a hit that makes you take a dirt nap - Blitz is on timer at this point, and not available, and without it LD starts feeling a little lacklustre.

FotW has unavoidable, 10s Helpless CC available, that can quickly regenerate on one of the fastest attacking melee toons in the game. It also has the highest HP potential.

ShadowDancer is also really attractive, feeding into the Sneak Damage that Rangers are doing now, Fort Bypass, Energy Drain immunity and of course a 100% Dodge clicky. Lithe's MDB bonus is also really helpful for hitting really high base dodge amounts (33-34%).

Bare in mind I'm currently running Balanced Attacks, Impregnable Mind and Dragonhide as core twists, with the last two up for grabs depending on dodge needs and actual destiny choice. So is LD still really the best choice?

2. Multi-role toon
I've noticed a couple of suggestions for going ranged - I attempted a true-dual role character a fair while back that maximised Wisdom for Paralyzing arrows and still had decent Melee DPS when the option was called for, but it got 0% traction or even replies.

Link: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-Ranger-Build

Thoughts?

3. CC
I've currently dumped Dire Charge and am running FotW for Overwhelming Force. When I tried to build for Dire Charge I was reaching an approximate DC92 with Know the Angles in the build. Not taking a CC feat really free's up a build in terms of Enhancements, Destiny choices, and importantly gear slots. Being in FotW also means I can have Adamantine, Silver and Cold Iron Bypass on any weapon.

Is Legendary Freezing Ice still a go-to weapon? Or is the randomness to unpredictable for LE use? Does the same apply to Balanced attacks?

4. Burst Heals
I'm personally managing around 500ish CSW with a Halcyonia as full time item. How are people achieving really big burst heals - say bigger than 500HP in a single cast of CSW?

Or are people using other methods I've missed?

5. Effective HP / Dodge
I'm currently rocking 1250 HP and 120 PRR, which puts me at 2840 Effective HP. However, that's only with 3 each of Divine and Primal Past Lives, if I go all out for 9 of each I can hit 3567 Effective Hp, which seems a much better bet. I am running constant displacements with a supply of Shroud Clickies, as well as trying for the 15% Incorp and 33% static Dodge using Scion of the Air.

Is this enough?

[Phil7]

Advice:

3) Double deception items are important for melees (masque + strange tidings = win ; there are other alternative combos too!)

4) Triple Positive is your friend

First off even if he did take the crappy combat expertise - he shouldn't have to twist in the improved stance.... he should be in legendary dreadnaught. Run in LD, with precision on.

I have never tried a Double Deception so far. How exactly does it boost your survivability? Is it because of the bluff-animation on the mob, which forces it to stop attacking you and turn around?

I assume by "Triple Positive" you mean LGS Affirmation with 150 positive sp/50hamp/70hamp ?

Why Precision and not Power Attack? It seems that Grazing Hits are kind of random in LE quests. A 97 roll might hit and a 123 roll might be a grazing hit on the same mob.

[Morroiel]

I have never tried a Double Deception so far. How exactly does it boost your survivability? Is it because of the bluff-animation on the mob, which forces it to stop attacking you and turn around?

Double deception items are good for the bluff-animation. A high attack rate build like tempest or wolf, if you have two items you'll see it quite frequently. Anytime you can get the monster to turn away from you is time he can't attack you -> increasing your survivability.

I assume by "Triple Positive" you mean LGS Affirmation with 150 positive sp/50hamp/70hamp ?

Why Precision and not Power Attack? It seems that Grazing Hits are kind of random in LE quests. A 97 roll might hit and a 123 roll might be a grazing hit on the same mob.

Triple pos (dealers choice for holy/good/good or devotion/hamp/hamp) - swap it in every minute or so.

Let's look at what precision and power attack do:

Precision - Offensive Combat Stance: While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%.
Grazing hits might seem random but they aren't. Read the wiki entry to understand what's going on. That +5% to hit will basically cause 5% less grazing hits - this is almost a 5% dps boost (a little less). Also, fortification bypass is awesome for both sneak attack damage and letting you crit. This feat has a lot of synergy with ranger especially in LE shroud.

Power Attack - .5[w] + 5 damage, -5 to-hit
~7 damage added, -5 to hit. 7 damage is nice - basically a ~5-9% dps boost. However, that -5 to hit hurts badly. Roughly the same as a 4% to-hit loss. This equates to getting more grazing hits - and IS BAD on LE. You are netting ~2-4% dps with this feat. I would probably still take the feat if you can for when doing non-legendary content, and so you can take the LD goodies (if you want to).

Basically, to-hit is a really important stat in endgame now. Precision actually comes out ahead of power attack for boosting dps on most builds.

[Phil7]

interesting
what about the double deception items?

[Morroiel]

interesting
what about the double deception items?

My edit didn't go through before sorry - basically for what you said. High attack speed = lots of procs -> more time where he is facing away from you -> less time he is attacking you.

[BigErkyKid]

1. Destinies
Comments are pointing to the use of LD as the destiny of choice, but I've been believing that other destinies may offer more for LE. This also rings true if you take a hit that makes you take a dirt nap - Blitz is on timer at this point, and not available, and without it LD starts feeling a little lacklustre.

FotW has unavoidable, 10s Helpless CC available, that can quickly regenerate on one of the fastest attacking melee toons in the game. It also has the highest HP potential.

ShadowDancer is also really attractive, feeding into the Sneak Damage that Rangers are doing now, Fort Bypass, Energy Drain immunity and of course a 100% Dodge clicky. Lithe's MDB bonus is also really helpful for hitting really high base dodge amounts (33-34%).

Bare in mind I'm currently running Balanced Attacks, Impregnable Mind and Dragonhide as core twists, with the last two up for grabs depending on dodge needs and actual destiny choice. So is LD still really the best choice?

Here is the deal: the best way to play LE raids, IMHO, is bringing a true CC toon. Mid tier - melee based CC is IMHO not a good enough substitute, even though I think that from a design standpoint it should be.

Sneak attack is good, but primarily because it is boosted by MP. So I am not sure that giving up on blitz and going for SA is going to make up for lost damage.

In the end the key question is what are you trying to achieve. 1) A melee toon optimized for elite raiding in elite raiding parties (with roles), or 2) a melee toon ready for cases in which stuff might go wrong (and short manning)?

If you 1), then LD pure ranger with arborea or SA legendary feat. If 2), then I suggest you move on to another archetype, since melee is IMHO not a great short manning option in LE raids.

4. Burst Heals
I'm personally managing around 500ish CSW with a Halcyonia as full time item. How are people achieving really big burst heals - say bigger than 500HP in a single cast of CSW?Or are people using other methods I've missed?

Interested in the answer too. Silver flame pots should hit hard with current level of available hamp.

5. Effective HP / Dodge
I'm currently rocking 1250 HP and 120 PRR, which puts me at 2840 Effective HP. However, that's only with 3 each of Divine and Primal Past Lives, if I go all out for 9 of each I can hit 3567 Effective Hp, which seems a much better bet. I am running constant displacements with a supply of Shroud Clickies, as well as trying for the 15% Incorp and 33% static Dodge using Scion of the Air.

Is this enough?

I'd say it is on the low side of HPs and PRR.

[AbyssalMage]

Let's look at what precision and power attack do:

Precision - Offensive Combat Stance: While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%.
Grazing hits might seem random but they aren't. Read the wiki entry to understand what's going on. That +5% to hit will basically cause 5% less grazing hits - this is almost a 5% dps boost (a little less). Also, fortification bypass is awesome for both sneak attack damage and letting you crit. This feat has a lot of synergy with ranger especially in LE shroud.

Power Attack - .5[w] + 5 damage, -5 to-hit
~7 damage added, -5 to hit. 7 damage is nice - basically a ~5-9% dps boost. However, that -5 to hit hurts badly. Roughly the same as a 4% to-hit loss. This equates to getting more grazing hits - and IS BAD on LE. You are netting ~2-4% dps with this feat. I would probably still take the feat if you can for when doing non-legendary content, and so you can take the LD goodies (if you want to).

Basically, to-hit is a really important stat in endgame now. Precision actually comes out ahead of power attack for boosting dps on most builds.

Precision > Power Attack now for a single reason:
"Reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%" (underlined above).

If you do SA damage, then you are now basically pigeonholed into Precision (regardless of Str or Dex based). I forget how many SA dice you need for SA > Power Attack, but I remember a posting during Rogue pass with the numbers and it isn't very high, maybe 3 or 4d6 where it becomes better thanks to scaling, in epics. So even if you are playing a Fighter, if you can fit SA gear through itemization or enhancements, your best bet is Precision for melee, DPS based.

"To-Hit" isn't as important from everything being posted (actual game play). As another posted in this thread (and I have physically tested in game), a roll of 70 (for example) can be a hit while a roll of 90 (another example) can be calculated as a "grazing hit" on the same NPC. This occurrence happens from level 1 and continues to level 30 independent of content (Heroic, Epic, or Legendary) because the "to-hit" calculation was changed and the developers have yet to reveal the actual code they use. Wiki has the best approximation of what they are using but there is hidden code players are not privy too as anything larger than a 70 should be a hit (in the above example) yet game play shows this isn't the case, always.

[Dandonk]

"To-Hit" isn't as important from everything being posted (actual game play). As another posted in this thread (and I have physically tested in game), a roll of 70 (for example) can be a hit while a roll of 90 (another example) can be calculated as a "grazing hit" on the same NPC. This occurrence happens from level 1 and continues to level 30 independent of content (Heroic, Epic, or Legendary) because the "to-hit" calculation was changed and the developers have yet to reveal the actual code they use. Wiki has the best approximation of what they are using but there is hidden code players are not privy too as anything larger than a 70 should be a hit (in the above example) yet game play shows this isn't the case, always.

The code they use for to hit is known: http://ddowiki.com/page/Ac

Player's chance to hit: (Player's Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target's Armor Class * 2) + 20% proficiency bonus, rounded to nearest 5%

This means that the die roll is extremely important. Let's look at an attack bonus of 110, vs. target AC of 120.

(110 + 10.5)/(2*120) + 0.20 = 0.70208, so rounded to 70%. This means that a roll of 7+ on the die is needed to hit.

Later in your attack chain, you could have +10 more to hit.

To hit percentage is VERY important, and since Precision adds 5 percentage points bonus (not 5% to your to hit, but a 5% point bonus to final to hit chance), it is extremely powerful in higher levels.

(120+10.5)/(2*120) + 0.20 = 0.74375, so rounded to 75%. In this case you'll need to roll a 6+ on the die to hit.

So, while a 5+120 will graze (total of 125), an 7+110 (total of 117) will hit. This is a result of the new combat system workings, and WAI. It's counterintuitive, and the system is buggy for TWF offhand and shield bashes, but the formula is known.

EDIT: Forgot to add that 20% proficiency bonus, bah.

[Arlathen]

Here is the deal: the best way to play LE raids, IMHO, is bringing a true CC toon. Mid tier - melee based CC is IMHO not a good enough substitute, even though I think that from a design standpoint it should be.

Sneak attack is good, but primarily because it is boosted by MP. So I am not sure that giving up on blitz and going for SA is going to make up for lost damage.

In the end the key question is what are you trying to achieve. 1) A melee toon optimized for elite raiding in elite raiding parties (with roles), or 2) a melee toon ready for cases in which stuff might go wrong (and short manning)?

If you 1), then LD pure ranger with arborea or SA legendary feat. If 2), then I suggest you move on to another archetype, since melee is IMHO not a great short manning option in LE raids.

I wish Grailhawk were around to do the calcs, for SD vs LD, as it would be fairly interesting with the high base MP in SD (4 vs. 2 IIRC).

However, I get your point. In the original Epics, in the older EE, and now LE, you either go big on what your main role is or you go home. Trying to be versatile isn't the right spot to be in.

Interested in the answer too. Silver flame pots should hit hard with current level of available hamp.

Should of mentioned I'm only toting Memoriam, 3x Paladin PL and Ship Buff as my only sources of Heal Amp right now, so I could itemise for better results, but I think something better than CSW 3D6+21 base heal amount is the key here.

I'd say it is on the low side of HPs and PRR.

Is this referring to the first or second value? If 3500 Effective HP isn't enough (1450HP, 143 PRR), then I'm going to have work harder on beefing up.