Why Power surg Divine Might and Know the angles need a nerf

[Rykka]

Divine Might and Know the Angles do NOT cancel each other out as they are described to, and both of them benefit from Power surg

Power surg is +4 DC and DMG or +6 if you THF or SWF
Divine Might from around 38 charis is +7 DC and DMG or +10 if THF or SWF
Know the Angels from 38 int is +7 DC and damage 38 is an easy number to get to, these can be much higher
But then power surge makes both of those 8 higher which results in 2 more DC and DMG from each.
+4 +7 +7 +2 +2


+22 damage and tactical DC's for 11ap

DM and KTA are supposed to be anti-requisites. But it's well known that they are not WAW or WAI. That should be addressed. Sometime after Tree and Wolf are addressed.

[01000010]

there is no issue with these abilities at all, not even the bug considering the only builds capable of using it are suboptimal anyway.



more than that bro





no. just, no.

Suboptimal, lol.

Builds would req 12 fighter, and either 1 cleric lvl or a few pal lvl.

Tier 5s in any class you choose, can you really not think of one or two optimised builds?

Forum people, lol.

[Eth]

also.. Boosting PRR/MRR in heavy armor is pointless when trying for Kensai blade centering.. you know the point of going T5 Kensai... Cant do one with the blade and wear armor..
Otherwise may as well skip the centered with weapon focus and just take the DPS aspects of Kensai and wear armor which kind of defeats the whole point of what Kensai was supposed to do.. from the way I understood Kensai was supposed to be..

One with the blade gives you passive 20 MP/RP. You want to take it either way (if you go tier 5 in kensai), no matter if centered or not.

[Kebtid]

Well, kta doesnt work with unarmed, so poor monks cant have all the nice things...
Pfft, the luxury all nonwraps builds have in this game

[Vanhooger]

pft..
One Cut was a poor increase as far as I am concerned.. a 15 second clickie with a 1 minute cooldown..
its a level 18 Fighter core to get....
One Cut: Activate: Your currently equipped primary weapon gains x1 Critical Damage Multiplier for 15 secs.(Cooldown: 1 minute) Passive: +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power.
..Other classes get their multipliers added permanently..
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nerfed-REALLY-!


Level 20 Fighter Capstone..
doublestrike/doubleshot .. meh.. doesn't stack with gear.. so does it really matter...
and have to give up /2 monk for this poor capstone which is detrimental to Kensai as a whole.. Kensai requires centering and Grandmaster is inferior as a Epic Destiny for fighters.. Twist all the low hanging fruit and move on.
They screwed Fighters by not offering them a way to be centered without monk/Grandmaster and not to be able to be centered with some types of armor..


as far as I am concerned this version of Kensai doesn't belong in the fighter enhancement tree, they really just move this into the Monk enhancments after removing the 8 fighter requirement for Greater Weapon Focus for a T4 enhancement (that only requires character level 4)..

Don't know why you think fighter stink mate

I actually play a pure 20 fighter (not centered) and it rocks.

I bet, my dps is even better then pure ranger on single target.

Just did a Legendary elite Shroud the other day, and completely crushed it with stun/trip/dire charge and legendary ice. Had 4 death at end witch is good for a melee with only cocoon & silver flame pot, and there are a lot of better player then me out there.

As capstone doublestrike does stack.

Give it a try, I think you may change you're opinion on fighter imho

[LagMonsterrrrrr]

Why not just remove all melee classes?

Since they are useless in LE raids anyway.

Don't bother to nerf it, just remove them.

[Vanhooger]

Why not just remove all melee classes?

Since they are useless in LE raids anyway.

Don't bother to nerf it, just remove them.

They're not useless.

[JOTMON]

Don't know why you think fighter stink mate

I actually play a pure 20 fighter (not centered) and it rocks.

I bet, my dps is even better then pure ranger on single target.

Just did a Legendary elite Shroud the other day, and completely crushed it with stun/trip/dire charge and legendary ice. Had 4 death at end witch is good for a melee with only cocoon & silver flame pot, and there are a lot of better player then me out there.

As capstone doublestrike does stack.

Give it a try, I think you may change you're opinion on fighter imho

I gave up on fighter beyond /x splashes a long time ago, I found them inferior and less survivable on a general basis.
What does fighter give that you cant get more from Barbarian/Monk/Paladin..
Where are the boss tactics.. Tactics that actually matter...
Trash mob stuns.. meh.. lots of other classes can decimate trash.. what does fighter bring that is unique to fighter..

I have been hoping to see something that jumps out to give fighters the tactical edge and boss survivability since ... Dead fighters do no DPS..

completely crushed it with stun/trip/dire charge and legendary ice.

meh..
which of these abilities was only successful because of the fighter level investment and gave the group an advantage that any other class wasn't able to...
crafted gear and Epic Destinies are not unique to fighters..

Stun/Trip only useful on trash mobs which can be CC'd many different ways by many classes..
I'll give you Stun since that at least increases damage and gets a decent benefit from fighter class for tactics..
sucky part is the stunning blow gains no benefit from level 1 to level 30.. its still only usable on a single mob for 6 seconds with a 15 second cooldown and useless on Reds...

Dire Charge.. a Martial Sphere Epic DEstiny Feat.. not unique to fighters...
knock down a bunch of trash mobs in your charge path for 6 seconds.. 12 second cooldown..useless on Reds...
any class with a high stat and some easy random gear can dire charge effectively .. fighter tactic points.... sure.. but they still are not dead yet...

Legendary Ice?.. Attacks and Offensive Spells have a [~?%] chance to turn your target into a block of ice. (Freezes target if it fails save and grants them DR 100/adamantine, does not add helpless condition)
what does the fighter class have to do with a LGS weapon effect?..

What is the fighter niche for reds that gives them toe-to-toe survivability/DPS where it matters.. on the Bosses...
.

[Vanhooger]

I gave up on fighter beyond /x splashes a long time ago, I found them inferior and less survivable on a general basis.
What does fighter give that you cant get more from Barbarian/Monk/Paladin..
Where are the boss tactics.. Tactics that actually matter...
Trash mob stuns.. meh.. lots of other classes can decimate trash.. what does fighter bring that is unique to fighter..

I have been hoping to see something that jumps out to give fighters the tactical edge and boss survivability since ... Dead fighters do no DPS..




meh..
which of these abilities was only successful because of the fighter level investment and gave the group an advantage that any other class wasn't able to...
crafted gear and Epic Destinies are not unique to fighters..

Stun/Trip only useful on trash mobs which can be CC'd many different ways by many classes..
I'll give you Stun since that at least increases damage and gets a decent benefit from fighter class for tactics..
sucky part is the stunning blow gains no benefit from level 1 to level 30.. its still only usable on a single mob for 6 seconds with a 15 second cooldown and useless on Reds...

Dire Charge.. a Martial Sphere Epic DEstiny Feat.. not unique to fighters...
knock down a bunch of trash mobs in your charge path for 6 seconds.. 12 second cooldown..useless on Reds...
any class with a high stat and some easy random gear can dire charge effectively .. fighter tactic points.... sure.. but they still are not dead yet...

Legendary Ice?.. Attacks and Offensive Spells have a [~?%] chance to turn your target into a block of ice. (Freezes target if it fails save and grants them DR 100/adamantine, does not add helpless condition)
what does the fighter class have to do with a LGS weapon effect?..

What is the fighter niche for reds that gives them toe-to-toe survivability/DPS where it matters.. on the Bosses...
.

Fighter is less survivable then other classes, yes.

But is part of my fun.

Most classes are too strong and make this game trivial. If you cycle trough stun/trip/dire charge you almost never got hit.

Boss dps is uber, I just need to be aware that I have limited self heal, as well I can die to a red named, there's no shame.

Thing is most people want to roflstomp any quest without even thinking what they're doing.
Tactics useless on red named well... If i could stun a red named, the party will kill a raid boss in half second, where's the fun? I remember when crausader ability was bugged and was stunning red named, so boring.

I agree that dire charge should be fighter only.

Legendary ice was just an example to add extra cc to the fighter even if anyone could do it.

[JOTMON]

Fighter is less survivable then other classes, yes.

But is part of my fun.

Most classes are too strong and make this game trivial. If you cycle trough stun/trip/dire charge you almost never got hit.

Boss dps is uber, I just need to be aware that I have limited self heal, as well I can die to a red named, there's no shame.

Thing is most people want to roflstomp any quest without even thinking what they're doing.
Tactics useless on red named well... If i could stun a red named, the party will kill a raid boss in half second, where's the fun? I remember when crausader ability was bugged and was stunning red named, so boring.

I agree that dire charge should be fighter only.

Legendary ice was just an example to add extra cc to the fighter even if anyone could do it.

I think that is one of the big things missing from fighters is advanced tactics, faster cooldowns on trip/stun.. a use for sunder.. aoe trips/stuns with reduced % chance that is offset by tactic investment..
A fighter should be the one in a tanking position soaking up/mitigating damage while holding boss aggro.

Problem is fighter cant stand there and trade punches, they have to twitch and use cheese mechanics to avoid death.
Fighters have no definitive tanking/tactics advantage that puts them to the forefront when facing heavy hitters to mitigate damage and hold aggro
New mechanic design has many Bosses that don't retain aggro so a fighter has a hard time holding the mobs attention.
Fighters have no boss tactics like a 'stand your ground' tactic when toe to toe that increases PRR/MRR/heal amp/deflection/hate/saves by a substantial% the longer they stay put..until the fighter moves and it resets..
Kensai is lacking things like damage deflection.. a way to avoid damage like ranger two weapon defense, or a deflect arrows, wind through the trees, elusive target, stuff that reduces the chances of a fighter getting splatted when toe-to-toe.
They have no concordant-op effects that would potentially turn incoming damage into healing (barbarians have bloodrage)..a way to heal without stopping to chug pots, or require a heal spamming babysitter...
A healer should be able to heal the fighter with minimal mana healing demand since they are supposed to be built to take vastly reduced damage while putting out damage...
Fighter feats while improved are still lacking..


Game mechanics have changed , we don't have long duration fights for better rewards.. like LOB 3 rounds for more chests.. instead we have mass brute zerg dps, dump mana bars and kill as fast as possible for the win..
Long duration fights lead to failure.

Ultimately fighters are lacking that core aspect of being able to wade into melee while requiring minimal healing to keep them alive... the class that is expected to wade into melee and be the center point of combat..

[Vanhooger]

I think that is one of the big things missing from fighters is advanced tactics, faster cooldowns on trip/stun.. a use for sunder.. aoe trips/stuns with reduced % chance that is offset by tactic investment..
A fighter should be the one in a tanking position soaking up/mitigating damage while holding boss aggro.

Problem is fighter cant stand there and trade punches, they have to twitch and use cheese mechanics to avoid death.
Fighters have no definitive tanking/tactics advantage that puts them to the forefront when facing heavy hitters to mitigate damage and hold aggro
New mechanic design has many Bosses that don't retain aggro so a fighter has a hard time holding the mobs attention.
Fighters have no boss tactics like a 'stand your ground' tactic when toe to toe that increases PRR/MRR/heal amp/deflection/hate/saves by a substantial% the longer they stay put..until the fighter moves and it resets..
Kensai is lacking things like damage deflection.. a way to avoid damage like ranger two weapon defense, or a deflect arrows, wind through the trees, elusive target, stuff that reduces the chances of a fighter getting splatted when toe-to-toe.
They have no concordant-op effects that would potentially turn incoming damage into healing (barbarians have bloodrage)..a way to heal without stopping to chug pots, or require a heal spamming babysitter...
A healer should be able to heal the fighter with minimal mana healing demand since they are supposed to be built to take vastly reduced damage while putting out damage...
Fighter feats while improved are still lacking..


Game mechanics have changed , we don't have long duration fights for better rewards.. like LOB 3 rounds for more chests.. instead we have mass brute zerg dps, dump mana bars and kill as fast as possible for the win..
Long duration fights lead to failure.

Ultimately fighters are lacking that core aspect of being able to wade into melee while requiring minimal healing to keep them alive... the class that is expected to wade into melee and be the center point of combat..

I can agree on some part of you're arguments but DDO is so far away from that. As you said, it is just a matter of DPS for quite a while now. Trash last exactly 5-10 sec. Raid bosses don't take longer then 2 min, usually less.

I would love to have better/new tactics, but it's not going to happen.

I just play what the current game give us even if it's not what I was hoping for.

I'd like to think that the dev's did what they could with a budget that is shrinking update after update.

I stopped hoping on big change for DDO.

I am more realistic now. Unfortunately.

If you want to tank and old aggro, you can do it with a fighter, but you have to build for that. Can't get best dps/defense/healing/save/tactics & aggro managment at same time, imho. Unless there is abuild that can do all that that I'm not aware of.

[JOTMON]

I can agree on some part of you're arguments but DDO is so far away from that. As you said, it is just a matter of DPS for quite a while now. Trash last exactly 5-10 sec. Raid bosses don't take longer then 2 min, usually less.

I would love to have better/new tactics, but it's not going to happen.

I just play what the current game give us even if it's not what I was hoping for.

I'd like to think that the dev's did what they could with a budget that is shrinking update after update.

I stopped hoping on big change for DDO.

I am more realistic now. Unfortunately.

If you want to tank and old aggro, you can do it with a fighter, but you have to build for that. Can't get best dps/defense/healing/save/tactics & aggro managment at same time, imho. Unless there is abuild that can do all that that I'm not aware of.

DDO can add/modify/improve tactics .. It can happen if they are motivated to do so,
could even do something simple like add SLA tactics with separate cooldowns... like casters that have sla insta-kills on separate cooldowns..

We all play with what the current game has given us.. until we don't..

Sure I can build for a fighter tank trying to get stars aligned to be.. mediocre ... or use another class and be a superior tank with less effort leaving room to be even better and take advantage of what the other classes have to offer...
Why bother building an inferior toon unless you are building a flavor toon for flower sniffing fun.. serious players are building to advantage.
The fighter pass is supposed to bring fighters into the want to play fold.. not the meh...

[KoobTheProud]

There are so many broken builds at this point that asking for one to be fixed is just promoting others to become the flavor of the month.

Just enjoy the game and let other people enjoy what they will. It's not like there's any achievement involved in dominating the game system at this point. It's an aged game system and it is by design at this point that players can basically do whatever they want within it as long as they are keeping the enterprise afloat in some way in the process.

It would be great to have a legacy server available in which worrying about power levels was actually a productive thing but in the absence of that development there's no real point to nagging about power creep.

What is it about the mechanics you're worried about that really bothers you? If it's your own power vs the game systems, well that's easily fixable. If it's other people's power, just don't group with them. Problem solved and zero dev resources involved.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Suboptimal, lol.

Builds would req 12 fighter, and either 1 cleric lvl or a few pal lvl.

Tier 5s in any class you choose, can you really not think of one or two optimised builds?

Forum people, lol.

i can think of a couple builds that at first might seem like it would be worth it, but it never would be. 12 fighter 6 barb 2 fvs/clr is the best str build, but its going to have worse dps and survivability than a pure fighter, so whats the point? even if you went 18 fighter 1 fvs/clr 1 whatever so you didnt lose the 20 mp in one cut, dm is still not going to be more dps than 15% double strike and +4 to all of your action boosts, so again, why bother?

imo pure fighter is all around the absolute best fighter build one could possibly play. so yes, other fighter builds are suboptimal.

a use for sunder..

Problem is fighter cant stand there and trade punches, they have to twitch and use cheese mechanics to avoid death.

fighters should take improved sunder, its very worth it. improved sunder and shattering strike is +25% stacking fort debuff not just for the fighter, but the whole group, and yet i never see people doing this other than me.

fighters most definitely can trade punches easily in most content, and in the toughest content they do it better than paladins and barbs because they can achieve high hp and very high prr. on my pure fighter atm, i can successfully survive one attack from le sorjek every time, and i dont have full prr/hp past lives, and i dont have an lgs % hp set yet, and i didnt max con over another stat, and im not using a shield, and im not in sentinel. imo if a character can do that, they are very tanky and can definitely trade hits very well throughout the rest of the game.

given the context, by twitch im assuming you mean kite and not actual twitching. if that is the case, is kiting also a cheese mechanic for ranged characters? personally i laugh at the melees who i see stand in one place attacking enemies until either the npc or pc is dead. one of the great appeals of this game is the active combat, and its one of the greatest advantages available to all players of all builds. i dont understand why would you not use it or look down on anyone who does.

fighters dont bring anything particularly unique to the table i suppose, but then neither does any of melee class. opportunity attack is roughly equivalent to the barb clickies. smite is roughly equivalent to deadly strike or good death. good death is exactly equivalent to execute. divine sacrifice is roughly equivalent to fists of iron. supreme cleave ultimately is just another cleave. the only unique gameplay thing i can think of that a melee class has (which isnt even 100% unique and not original) is the emthod of healing from blood strength, but nobody plays barbs because that feature is different, they play barbs because that feature, combined with others, is powerful. its a matter of function over form.

given that, fighters are absolutely in the want to play category. kensei is definitely tankier than kotc. kensei does more dps than kotc. tactics are roughly the same at worst, and for sure better for the kensei if you want them to be. kensei has more to hit, more means of lowering ac, and more means of lowering fort, meaning they increase group physical dps as well as their own, which is significant in legendary elite. they are inherently less capable of self healing, but thats what twists and umd and items are for.

compared to barbs, fighters are roughly as tanky when fighting groups of weaker trash, but the smaller the number of enemies and the more powerful they are, the better the comparison for fighter. and atm, trash isnt super huge clumps of weaklings, its mdoerate sized groups of stronks. so compared to the content, fighters are better in this regard imo. tactics...probably same comparison as paladin. dps, fighter definitely wins single target, probably draws even at worst in aoe. certainly does more damage, but supreme cleave is a game changer.

honesty, i really think they gave fighter enough dps and prr that they are worth playing, and are better than paladins and barbs.

[goodspeed]

Divine Might and Know the Angles do NOT cancel each other out as they are described to, and both of them benefit from Power surg

Power surg is +4 DC and DMG or +6 if you THF or SWF
Divine Might from around 38 charis is +7 DC and DMG or +10 if THF or SWF
Know the Angels from 38 int is +7 DC and damage 38 is an easy number to get to, these can be much higher
But then power surge makes both of those 8 higher which results in 2 more DC and DMG from each.
+4 +7 +7 +2 +2


+22 damage and tactical DC's for 11ap

I still want stunning blow to be on the same cooldown timer as fist. When will this happen?

[JOTMON]

I still want stunning blow to be on the same cooldown timer as fist. When will this happen?

I am waiting for fighters to get tactics SLA's on separate timers like casters get out of their enhancements for bonus spells and even insta-kills...

[Chai]

Fix it so they don't stack per the description. No need for a nerf.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

snip

honesty, i really think they gave fighter enough dps and prr that they are worth playing, and are better than paladins and barbs.

You are absolutely positively 100% wrong about barbs. (Can't speak to paladin, don't and have never had one at epic levels)

I have both a pure barb and a pure fighter. The fighter is geared MUCH BETTER than the barb. And the barb CRUSHES content the fighter struggles with.

It is night and day between the two.

[Phil7]

Fighter is fine
I dont care if they nerf DM, KtA, SMB DGH or whatever, I don't use them anyway and I always forget to click Power Surge. They are annoying and they don't allow one to relax when playing.
Self healing and saves are fine. DPS and Survivability are also very good. The new update brought so far only one negative aspect to the fighter class.
Even more buttons to click. Not cool and not fun. It is just like playing the piano, but with ''ARGHS'' and ''GRRRRS'' and ''DINGS" instead of the melody.

Also while you're at it, you should remove Opportunity Attack aswell, because its an extra click every 6 seconds. And who cares about 20 melee power, the fighter damage is already sky-high.

I've never been a fan of action boosts either, but there is nothing better to take in place of "Haste Boost" as Kensei.

Sometimes the low AOE damage bothers me during my Reincarnations, but you can't have everything. Unless you are a Warlock

[01000010]

i can think of a couple builds that at first might seem like it would be worth it, but it never would be. 12 fighter 6 barb 2 fvs/clr is the best str build, but its going to have worse dps and survivability than a pure fighter, so whats the point? even if you went 18 fighter 1 fvs/clr 1 whatever so you didnt lose the 20 mp in one cut, dm is still not going to be more dps than 15% double strike and +4 to all of your action boosts, so again, why bother?

imo pure fighter is all around the absolute best fighter build one could possibly play. so yes, other fighter builds are suboptimal.

Define optimal. Lets go with the build you mentioned 12 fighter/6barb/2cleric

You do lose some nice stuff from fighter cores, but you are ignoring all the things you gain from the other 2 classes, no particular order here.

1. cleric 1, access to emp heal for coccoon and even quicken.
2. Barb cores, health and heal amp for more healing from any source including coccoon.
3. Barb power attack, 3+ more damage per hit(more than 3 if 2h weap).
4. Knockout, champ killer.
5. Run speed boost.
6. +3 action boosts(1 less than final fighter core)
7. All sorts of ways to increase strength and con more, rage, frenzy, stat enhancements.
8. Supreme cleave.
9. Option of going with various barb tier 5s instead of fighter, all of which stack with fighter core 3 multiplier.
10. More mana due to cleric lvls for self healing.
11. Possibility of using many synergies that go along with highish charisma, some feats, some ed twists.

Thats just the one you brought up, how about 12fighter/5Warlock/3pal(Shining though, displacement, varius light damage added to attack from lock and pal lvls, Aura tick temp health), or 14fighter/5warlock/1cleric or 12fighter/7bard/1cleric or 12fighter/5ranger/3pal, all these are very optimal but different, each has strengths and weaknesses and distinct synergies.

Edit, i should add fvs is likely better than cleric for many of these builds due to mana based on charisma.