U31: Deep cave prospector

[Axeyu]

Yes in theory but that's not how most people play in practice.

Consolidation of your damage stat and con stat means your more likely to max it in gear (have +15 or 16 item instead of settling for say +12, same for insightful you'll have a +7 instead of a +4) your also more likely to take the enhanceme. There's also creation build points where if your a con build you'll have a 20 where others will have a 16.

You can do all that just the same, in the end TYWA is still only a DPS bonus that may or may not be better than the alternatives. I dont believe it is better.

[BigErkyKid]

No. The only HP you get from taking TYWA is from the dwarven cores, off with most can be offset in DWS leaving only a 2 con advantage. 2 con does not give you 42% EHP.

Yes in theory but that's not how most people play in practice.

Consolidation of your damage stat and con stat means your more likely to max it in gear (have +15 or 16 item instead of settling for say +12, same for insightful you'll have a +7 instead of a +4) your also more likely to take the enhanceme. There's also creation build points where if your a con build you'll have a 20 where others will have a 16.

You can do all that just the same, in the end TYWA is still only a DPS bonus that may or may not be better than the alternatives. I dont believe it is better.

First of all let me say I welcome build discussion, it is fun for me and I don't feel it as a personal attack. So hack away!

Second, I think you are getting a bit stuck in "partial" optimization. You say that people can be up with the exact same CON on a ranger that focuses on other stats for DPS, and I disagree completely. I think you are not factoring in all the gear needs (slots are not endless) and build points.

Furthermore, with LGS consolidating gear has become crucial. You one at least 2 free slots for the HPs, and I challenge you to do it and still max out on CON so that you are behind 80 CON only by 2.

As an exercise, why don't you post your gear layout? I am assuming you are playing such ranger.

If I were you, I'd probably go with head and bracers for LGS. Then the gear lay out:

- lRing of prowess (deadly, MP, accuracy)
- deception ring (either seal or DoJ ring)
- boots (I'd choose PRR+insight PRR if not going dire charge, otherwise eInnocent boots)
- bracers LGS
- head LGS
- belt (sneak + dodge belt from good intentions)
- googles (seeker + dex from eMentau + ghostly)
- neck (either insight CON + false life - lion mane- or insight DBs)
- trinket (epic litany)
- cloak (STR from devil's assault)
- gloves (iron mitts HAMP and vitality and resist)
- armor (either ToEE or quality deadly from avenger)
- weapon TF dragon's edge + toee // khopesh from devils assault + TF // LGS khopesh + TF

So how do you exactly reach 78 CON with this set up? Suppose you were to take a CON LGS weapon, which on a regular ranger is not that good of a synergy IMHO.

16 starting + 6 tome + 2 completionist + 15 LGS + 7 LGS + 4 tensers + 5 primal scream +2 ship+ 2 litany+1 exceptional

16+6+2+15+7+4+5+2+2+1= 60.

You are still at 60 and you "gimped" your main damage stat (I will argue this later). You have two options for the rest:

STR based: 18 base+ 7 levels + 2 insight STR + 2 ship+4 tenser's +5 primal scream+2 litany+11 item+2 insight (slotted)+1 exceptional + 7 tome

18+7+2+2+4+5+2+11+2+1+7= 61 (25 damage mod).

This is what the divine cuisinart build ends up with. This sets you on a dexterity of ~42 (reference divine cuisinart thread)

Or if you go with 2 LGS weapons (which IMHO is a bad idea) with STAT, you can get:

61+4 (item extra) + 3 (item insight extra)= 68 (29 damage mod)

Plus whatever you allocate from destiny. I insist I don't think this is a great set up, but just for the sake of comparisons.

On a dwarf I would do this, given my set up, I would have for CON:

20 starting +7 lvls+ 7 tome + 2 completionist + 15 LGS + 7 LGS + 4 tensers + 5 primal scream +2 ship+ 4 quality+1 exceptional+ 2 dwarf+4 destiny

20+7+7+2+15+7+4+5+2+4+1+2+4= 80 (35 mod).

And still be able to yield and off hand TF weapon (or ToEE, whatever you choose). I think that in that respect STAT consolidation is giving you a very big benefit.

You partially offset the KTA issue (you just lose on tactics), since you are around +5 in main stat damage modifier plus 4 from dwarf enhancements for a total of +9. That in the gimpy best case scenario for a STR ranger. So KTA gives you half your mod to damage, you need a an INT modifier of +18 to catch up on the dwarf (which is 46 INT, I am not sure you can get that, divine cuisinart gets 38, but let's assume you do yet another lGS weapon).

So all this to say that I don't think you are being realistic saying you can get to -2 CON from the dwarf, not at all. Even "gimping" your set up to gain CON you only get to 60, and that's using a LGS CON weapon, something I don't think anyone will do.


In a not gimping your toon scenario, I think the situation will be

STR based ranger:

16 starting + 6 tome + 2 completionist + 14CON+4insight + 4 tensers + 5 primal scream +2 ship+ 2 litany+1 exceptional
16+6+2+14+4+4+5+2+2+1= 56 CON

That being generous, because I don't know where you would slot it. I think more likely you end up with around 50 CON in most situations (divine cuisinart ends up with 40 CON - around 50 CON buffed)

And then around 68 STR.

Whereas on a CON based ranger:

80 CON, which consolidates gear and stat distribution.

That's I think a realistic assessment. The other stuff is just wishful thinking

[BigErkyKid]

• Exposing Strike
• 10% offhand proc rate
• 5% Doublestrike
• 25% offhand Doublestrike
• 10 Melee Power
• 1d6 Sneak Attack
• 10% Armor Pericing
• Deflect Arrows
• 5% Incorporeality
• 14 PRRR
• 10 MRR

That's just the stuff they can't take.

Killer vs Zeal is probably a wash.

That list probably does add more total DPS then Human Damage boost.

You kind of just convinced me that Tempestadin is a bit overrated. You probably are in the same ball park as that build. They give up an tone of attack speed.

Interesting.

Actually they give up on killer / zeal (and on more sneak attack). At least Eth does, check the thread.

If you want zeal you need to give up on manyshot.

Thats why I think that this build MIGHT be a better compromise, or at least a similar alternative, to the toughness oriented tempestadin.

[Eth]

Actually they give up on killer / zeal (and on more sneak attack). At least Eth does, check the thread.

If you want zeal you need to give up on manyshot.

Thats why I think that this build MIGHT be a better compromise, or at least a similar alternative, to the toughness oriented tempestadin.

Pure ranger should always out DPS my tempest/pala build.
I finally took the time yesterday to twink that thing (hadn't really played it much since U29).
The new U31 docent actually gave me a lot of improvement to throw some things around. I really need to work on LGS though. (really need the HP set, and freed up one hand to use triple pos LGS... and I have none of those things so far)

[BigErkyKid]

Pure ranger should always out DPS my tempest/pala build.
I finally took the time yesterday to twink that thing (hadn't really played it much since U29).
The new U31 docent actually gave me a lot of improvement to throw some things around. I really need to work on LGS though. (really need the HP set, and freed up one hand to use triple pos LGS... and I have none of those things so far)

Hey hey! Death to the robots

Whomever thought it was OK to give a toon power of the forge, communion and war forged immunities must have had a very urgent need to boost the semester's revenue...

In any case, welcome back among the mortals Eth, I hope you burn that shiradi aberration you used to play.

[Eth]

Hey hey! Death to the robots

Whomever thought it was OK to give a toon power of the forge, communion and war forged immunities must have had a very urgent need to boost the semester's revenue...

In any case, welcome back among the mortals Eth, I hope you burn that shiradi aberration you used to play.

Huh? I still have the shiradi and I'm not done yet with my quest to conquer the realms with a zombie army. More and more join every day.

[BigErkyKid]

Huh? I still have the shiradi and I'm not done yet with my quest to conquer the realms with a zombie army. More and more join every day.

Until the devs add magic missile immunity to the epic ward... :O

[Eth]

Until the devs add magic missile immunity to the epic ward... :O

Such things are already in the game. Ask rakshasas or liches for advise.
It's actually funny, everytime I run that build through epics and do orchard slayers I end up dragging an army of liches behind me in the process, because I have no way of killing them before I hit level 27 (I could use EB, but I prefer to run cold or electric, which they are also immune too. Wild shots should also work, now that I think of it....hmmm).

[BigErkyKid]

Such things are already in the game. Ask rakshasas or liches for advise.
It's actually funny, everytime I run that build through epics and do orchard slayers I end up dragging an army of liches behind me in the process, because I have no way of killing them before I hit level 27 (I could use EB, but I prefer to run cold or electric, which they are also immune too. Wild shots should also work, now that I think of it....hmmm).

Also typical wizking situation :P

but seriously, I do think the game would be a better place with shiradi proccing per cast, not per missile.

[Axeyu]

You are missing my point and thus you are making the wrong comparison. I'm not talking about con based vs str based, I'm talking about con based with TYWA vs con based without TYWA. TYWA is after all only a DPS enhancement. If there are better DPS enhancements to take instead of it that does not mean that you have to give up on the con focus.

So the question is only if the +4 to hit and damage and the difference between your con and str mod to damage is worth more DPS than other alternatives for those 18 APs possibly along with a better weapon type.

[BigErkyKid]

You are missing my point and thus you are making the wrong comparison. I'm not talking about con based vs str based, I'm talking about con based with TYWA vs con based without TYWA. TYWA is after all only a DPS enhancement. If there are better DPS enhancements to take instead of it that does not mean that you have to give up on the con focus.

So the question is only if the +4 to hit and damage and the difference between your con and str mod to damage is worth more DPS than other alternatives for those 18 APs possibly along with a better weapon type.

I see. This is a bit unconventional.

Suppose I pick a khopesh ranger and I maximize its CON. From my previous post, this is your end STR:

STR based: 16 base+ 2 insight STR + 2 ship+4 tenser's +5 primal scream+2 litany+11 item+2 insight (slotted)+1 exceptional + 7 tome

16+2+2+4+5+2+11+2+1+7= 52 (21 damage mod).

So you are behind by +14 on your main stat damage, to which you have to add +4 from dwarf for a total of +18, which is before weapon multipliers and what not. Picking 38 INT from divine cuisinart you gain back from KTA +7, which leaves you behind by 11.

How much DPS is that? I will compare quickly a khopesh build with a light pick.

0*(1/20)+1*(14/20)+(3/20)*4+(2/20)*6=1.9 effective hits
0*(1/20)+1*(16/20)+(1/20)*5+(2/20)*7=1.75 EH

Now melee power fully boosting

30 thousand cuts
10 capstone
30 epic
18 LD cores
8 lProwess
20 ToEE set
2 tome
70 blitz

30+10+30+18+8+20+2+70=188

Assume now that the base damage of the dwarf is ahead by 10 over a base of 60
Dwarf
71*1.75*2.88= 357.8
Other ranger CON based with khopesh
60*1.9*2.88=328

So you need more than the better crit profile and KTA to make up for the base damage difference.

PS - In any case, you may have a point. I would need to run everything more carefully to reach a general conclusion. I wouldn't say that it is obviously gimped to go CON based based on the above numbers.

[Grailhawk]

Strength Only buffs
02 Yugo Pots
02 Ram's Might
02 Tempest Stat bonus (may or may not be taken)

Ranger has no Con enhancements

Main Stat Human
18 Base
07 Level Ups
07 Tome
03 Dreadnought Strength/Constitution
01 Human Enhancement
05 Primal Scream
02 Ship Buff
02 Store Pot
02 Profain (Litany)
15 Random Loot Gen
07 Random Insight Loot Gen
01 Exceptional (Globe)
70

Secondary Stat Human
16 Base
07 Tome
01 Dreadnought Strength/Constitution
05 Primal Scream
02 Ship Buff
02 Store Pot
02 Profain (Litany)
01 Exceptional (Globe)
13 Random Loot Gen
05 Random Insight Loot Gen
54

Do to the reality of the gearing dilemma its not fair to just say you will have max stat items for both your main and Secondary Stat. I've lowered the Enhancement and the Insightful bonus by 2 to simulate that issue.

STR Main (76) CON Secondary (54)
+33 To-Hit/Damage +660 HP

CON Main (70) STR Secondary (60)
+25 To-Hit/Damage +900 HP

So
+/-8 To-Hit/Damage vs +/- 240 HP

Dwarf all in on Con
20 Base
07 Level Ups
07 Tome
04 Dreadnought Strength/Constitution
02 Dwarf Enhancement
05 Primal Scream
02 Ship Buff
02 Store Pot
02 Profain (Litany)
15 Random Loot Gen
07 Random Insight Loot Gen
01 Exceptional (Globe)
74

+32 To-Hit/Damage +960 HP

Dwarf vs STR/CON Human
-1 To-Hit/Damage +300HP

Dwarf vs CON/STR Human
+7 To-Hit/Damage +60HP

Now the the CON/STR Human will have know the angles you need an Int of 38 ((7*2 + 5)*2 = 38) to make up the 7 To-Hit/Damage (just because I still want Fighter Dwarf to make more sense this isn't the case for a Fighter)

16 More Int (LGS swap in KTA stick maybe) and you make up for the +4 To-Hit/Damage that Dwarfs get from there tree.
Int Human
14 Base
07 Tome
02 Ship Buff
02 Store Pot
02 Profain (Litany)
01 Exceptional (Globe)
15 Random Loot Gen (LGS swap in only)
07 Random Insight Loot Gen (LGS swap in only)
02 Spooky
02 Yugo (bit question able but not as bad as CON Yugo)
54

I miss anything in the Stat brake downs?

[BigErkyKid]

I miss anything in the Stat brake downs?

You have missed tenser's but it applies to both equally so no big deal.

My biggest concern is slotting such high CON on a secondary STAT.

You have my suggested gear layout here, what would you change?

- lRing of prowess (deadly, MP, accuracy)
- deception ring (either seal or DoJ ring)
- boots (I'd choose PRR+insight PRR if not going dire charge, otherwise eInnocent boots)
- bracers LGS
- head LGS
- belt (sneak + dodge belt from good intentions)
- googles (seeker + dex from eMentau + ghostly)
- neck (either insight CON + false life - lion mane- or insight DBs)
- trinket (epic litany)
- cloak (STR from devil's assault)
- gloves (iron mitts HAMP and vitality and resist)
- armor (either ToEE or quality deadly from avenger)
- weapon TF dragon's edge + toee // khopesh from devils assault + TF // LGS khopesh + TF

[BigErkyKid]

Also in light of this I am even considering dropping TYWA and going with KTA and only going up to child of the mountain on the dwarf. Then it is either khopesh or scimitar, with scimitar allowing better consolidation of stats.

All that to say that I am open to stand corrected on the value of TYWA!

[Grailhawk]

You have my suggested gear layout here, what would you change?

Dragon Masque
Epic Mentau's Goggles
Legendary Pendant of the Warrior's Focus
Shadowdragon Hide (Shadow Killer)
Hide of the Fallen/Mysterious Cloak
Random Loot Bracers for Stats
Hasty Gloves of Healing Amplification
Legendary Ring of Prowess
Random Loot Ring for Stats
Legendary Animated Rope
Epic Boots of the Innocent
Epic Litnay of the Dead
Epic Quiver of Alacrity

That's not exactly my suggestion but Its what a friend of mine wan'ts me to do calcs with so I'ts probably the best suggestion I can make.

[BigErkyKid]

Dragon Masque
Epic Mentau's Goggles
Legendary Pendant of the Warrior's Focus
Shadowdragon Hide (Shadow Killer)
Hide of the Fallen/Mysterious Cloak
Random Loot Bracers for Stats
Hasty Gloves of Healing Amplification
Legendary Ring of Prowess
Random Loot Ring for Stats
Legendary Animated Rope
Epic Boots of the Innocent
Epic Litnay of the Dead
Epic Quiver of Alacrity

That's not exactly my suggestion but Its what a friend of mine wan'ts me to do calcs with so I'ts probably the best suggestion I can make.

I think the 2 set hp bonus is a must now. If YOU had to gear it, do you honestly think that in the game as it stands (and using 2 slots for lgs) you would be able to slot a 13/5 secondary stat?i think the best I can do is the clock from demon assault for str. This would take away 5 from the secondary str. Round it up to 54 if you want.

In turn this drops 3 from to hit and damage and puts at 10 the difference. Adding 4 from dwarf enhancements it is a 14 base damage difference. Yes a lot can be reduced with kta but not completely.

All in all the base damage difference between a secundary stat str won't be big but that I gathered already for my previous post.

It feels ugly to do a human main stat con though. There is no real synergy, just lots of power creep in gear and kta.

How about a child of the mountain plus kta? Just trying to see what can be done to break apart a bit.

[Grailhawk]

I think the 2 set hp bonus is a must now. If YOU had to gear it, do you honestly think that in the game as it stands (and using 2 slots for lgs) you would be able to slot a 13/5 secondary stat?i think the best I can do is the clock from demon assault for str. This would take away 5 from the secondary str. Round it up to 54 if you want.

In turn this drops 3 from to hit and damage and puts at 10 the difference. Adding 4 from dwarf enhancements it is a 14 base damage difference. Yes a lot can be reduced with kta but not completely.

All in all the base damage difference between a secundary stat str won't be big but that I gathered already for my previous post.

It feels ugly to do a human main stat con though. There is no real synergy, just lots of power creep in gear and kta.

How about a child of the mountain plus kta? Just trying to see what can be done to break apart a bit.

I don't see you getting enough To-Hit/Damage to beat Human Damage boost and Killer.

When we were looking at it as HDB and Killer for 400+ HP it was an interesting idea but now that its just 60 HP and a few points of damage its just not going to muster up, IMO.

Child of the Mountain would need a base of 2500 HP to add in 100 more your not getting that on a Ranger, and even then 160 or even 190 (dwarf toughness enhancements) isn't going to be in interesting trade for HDB and Killer IMO.

[Axeyu]

Yeah, its unconventional and the realisation kind of sucks.
What I ended up rolling was a con based human with khopeshes. Personally I didnt bother with KTA, but that is mostly because Im lazy.

[Grailhawk]

Yeah, its unconventional and the realisation kind of sucks.
What I ended up rolling was a con based human with khopeshes. Personally I didnt bother with KTA, but that is mostly because Im lazy.

KTA isn't make or brake on a Ranger you can just double down in Stalker and Pick up Mark of the Hunter, its better then KTA's in some situations at that.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't see you getting enough To-Hit/Damage to beat Human Damage boost and Killer.

When we were looking at it as HDB and Killer for 400+ HP it was an interesting idea but now that its just 60 HP and a few points of damage its just not going to muster up, IMO.

Child of the Mountain would need a base of 2500 HP to add in 100 more your not getting that on a Ranger, and even then 160 or even 190 (dwarf toughness enhancements) isn't going to be in interesting trade for HDB and Killer IMO.

I agree even 190 HPs (best case scenario) is not interesting enough to give up on those goodies. This is officially declared a flavor build now. It was close!

Yeah, its unconventional and the realisation kind of sucks.
What I ended up rolling was a con based human with khopeshes. Personally I didnt bother with KTA, but that is mostly because Im lazy.

Congrats, you killed a baby-toon :P

It is IMHO a fair fight against a STR based ranger, but you just pointed out how the master race can achieve something similar enough that it doesn't really matter.

Now I am not convinced that maxxing CON is optimal, but with human you have a great degree of flexibility on the choice.

KTA isn't make or brake on a Ranger you can just double down in Stalker and Pick up Mark of the Hunter, its better then KTA's in some situations at that.

Perhaps you are right and fighter is the best combo here, but I am very hesitant. It def cannot be a shield and board (at least IMHO), since 18 in racial tree would it too much to be then able to pick goodies from both kensei and VG.

TWF feels a bit of a waste, since the ranger seems to beat the fighter even in a single target (not accounting AOE) fight.

THF? A rift maker build?