House Cannith Manufactory - more like this please!

[dunklezhan]

Had occasion to play House C Manufactory quests a few times over the last few weeks, been a while since I ran them, I'd forgotten just how good they are.

The explorer area is incredibly atmospheric even though its not too big, with the first appearance of the narrated scroll explorer mechanic - also done really well, by the way. LoB is a menacing presence throughout, House C have clearly been messing with stuff they shouldn't be and for entirely the wrong reasons... its all great. The rest of the zone has things for trappers and locksmiths, funky lifts and even some relatively challenging fights (at least right at level and if you don't know what's coming).

The quests also look great, they have interesting objectives and ways of achieving them, heck:

- there's an escort quest that works, with a kick ass end fight and several ingeniously dangerous trap sections and hidden stuff everywhere.

- alternating silliness and seriousness in Blown to Bits (optionals are srs bzniss in there, that's for sure, and it has one of the best antizerg mechanics in the game - get your timing wrong and BOOM)

- Schemes of the Enemy is a masterclass in DDO quest design, with the option to skip two dangerous encounters safely... one with the right rogue skills, the other merely at the cost of time and boredom. The fights are pretty tough thanks to the mix of mobs and the spells that are getting laid down (ooh, you artificers and your lightning spheres! Why I oughtta...).. and then the end fight of teleporting cannon goodness, where the right mix of melee and ranged will win the day far better and faster than just one or the other.



Other than that, Please fix the death animations (or lack of).


The only change I would make is a fast travel to the raids once you've fully explorerd the raid explorer areas - if only to try to get the raid going again. From the videos I've seen, both raids are similarly masterclasses, in particular the Lord of Blades. You should get epic versions of those done, pronto.

Very much more like this please.

Not necessarily Cannith stuff (though I wouldn't say no, those art resources are amazing and I'm always good with more eberron content), but this is the kind of DDO sundae I like: One healthy scoop of Distinctive/archetypal look and feel mixed up with several different flavours of quest design (and their lovely different flavours all nice and physically close to each other), sat on plate with a beautifully decorated and balanced explorer area with a couple of nice fat glistening raids on top, with a puzzle box on the side you have to solve to get at your spoon and the whole thing liberally scattered with traps.

And barely a 'kill all to proceed' mechanic in sight.

[Enoach]

I agree this is one of the areas that can be classified as Under-appreciated.

[LeoLionxxx]

Other than that, Please fix the death animations (or lack of).

Huh. I thought that was fixed.

[dunklezhan]

Huh. I thought that was fixed.

Not as of the last few weeks - not every mob, but many. They just vanish on death - I can't tell but it might be an 'overdamage' thing. i.e. if they die sufficiently hard, they seem to just disappear (and not in the elemental damage kind of a way that you sometimes see, I mean they just vanish).

[FranOhmsford]

Cannith Manufactory was a massive FAIL!

The quests are decent yes but the XP is average and the time to run them is very long - 30+ minutes each!.
The standard Slayer Zone isn't actually bad but isn't good either and seriously 60-70 mobs solo per instance and 7,500 Max = A lot of runs!

But the Raid Slayer Zones are ATROCIOUS!

And the Raids aren't run because they're such a pain to get a group to!

Those Raid Slayer Zones should either be:
- Made part of the Raid and lose the Slayer Counts!
OR
- have the doors removed and made part of the standard Slayer Zone with the NPC outside the entrance teleporting the whole Raid Group into the Raids!

[Lauf]

Cannith Manufactory was a massive FAIL!

The quests are decent yes but the XP is average and the time to run them is very long - 30+ minutes each!.
The standard Slayer Zone isn't actually bad but isn't good either and seriously 60-70 mobs solo per instance and 7,500 Max = A lot of runs!

But the Raid Slayer Zones are ATROCIOUS!

And the Raids aren't run because they're such a pain to get a group to!

Those Raid Slayer Zones should either be:
- Made part of the Raid and lose the Slayer Counts!
OR
- have the doors removed and made part of the standard Slayer Zone with the NPC outside the entrance teleporting the whole Raid Group into the Raids!

So your response to a post saying the quests have good mechanics, is that they are a massive fail because their xp wasn't properly set?
I think you're missing the point of the original post.

[Bonulino]

I agree with the OP. The quests are interesting and they are fun. For me, fun is more important than maximizing XP.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

nm

[erethizon]

So your response to a post saying the quests have good mechanics, is that they are a massive fail because their xp wasn't properly set?
I think you're missing the point of the original post.

Actually, his post should be framed and sent to the developers. The Cannith Manufactory is an awesome pack that is barely used because of what he mentioned in his post. If those changes were made it might not be like pulling teeth to get a group to run it one time each life. And the raids I have done only once ever because they are so painfully hard to form. Those improvements need to be made and the sooner the better.

[Paleus]

Cannith Manufactory was a massive FAIL!

The quests are decent yes but the XP is average and the time to run them is very long - 30+ minutes each!.
The standard Slayer Zone isn't actually bad but isn't good either and seriously 60-70 mobs solo per instance and 7,500 Max = A lot of runs!

But the Raid Slayer Zones are ATROCIOUS!

And the Raids aren't run because they're such a pain to get a group to!

Those Raid Slayer Zones should either be:
- Made part of the Raid and lose the Slayer Counts!
OR
- have the doors removed and made part of the standard Slayer Zone with the NPC outside the entrance teleporting the whole Raid Group into the Raids!

Just stop and think about what you're saying. You acknowledge that quest mechanics are decent. That should be what defines a good quest, good mechanics, interesting story, variety, etc the things the OP was focusing on. But you've called it a "massive FAIL!" because it doesnt have good XP? And because it doesnt have good XP then its a pain to find a group. So, if we simply upped the XP it'd go from a massive FAIL to a massive SUCCESS?

Are you seriously not seeing that the problem that you have then is the XP system in the game at a game mechanic level, not a quest level?

Your point about the raid zone is taken. These come from a game design era similar to Heroic HoX and VoD where getting to the raid was part of the experience (god forbid you try to get a full Demon Queen raid going having to coordinate two groups). The game has since transitioned away from that with newer raids just letting you drop into the raid and older quests never being updated to fit the new mold (similar to how older loot is outclassed but still has low drop rates and the XP hasn't been revamped to compensate for the change from 20 cap heroic only TR to 30 cap multi-TR systems). Turbine could take the time to update them, but thats resources spent on packs already bought, so less of a priority. This leaves the game a patchwork of great content from different eras that slowly become incompatible with the current era. Again, all this points to your real beef being at game level mechanics, not quest level mechanics.

P.S. Maybe I'd have agreed with you if you hadn't said Cannith Manufactory was a massive FAIL! I remember when Cannith Manufactory got released having a lot of good fun in challenging raids that people enjoyed. It was not a massive fail then, but it became one over time as an extension of how numerous game level changes have been implemented. Again, this should have made you take the time to really question whether the game's mechanics are fails with an exclamation mark, not these quests, or if its just acceptable to see good content be left obsolete.

[FranOhmsford]

because it doesnt have good XP? And because it doesnt have good XP then its a pain to find a group. So, if we simply upped the XP it'd go from a massive FAIL to a massive SUCCESS?

That was just ONE PART of my post NOT ALL OF IT!

I mentioned the XP because a whole lot of people in this game care about not just XP but something called XP/Min - And Cannith Manufactory is not just bad XP/Min but ludicrously bad XP/Min!

The XP for the Quests is actually on par with other quests of similar level but not with other Quests of similar LENGTH!
Genesis Point gives twice what Schemes of the Enemy gives!
Sins of Attrition gives twice what Power Play gives!
The time to complete those quests is similar {In fact I think Sins is shorter}.


BUT I WASN'T JUST TALKING ABOUT THE XP!


My main issue with this entire Chain is the Slayer Zones and the Raids themselves!

The Quests as I said are actually decent - Not great {They wouldn't be in my Top 50} but not bad either!

The Raids however were a complete FAIL!
The Raid Slayer Zones are SubT like but far far WORSE!
Getting a Group together for these Raids is a Pain in the Proverbial!
The Favour Rewards require pretty much EVERYTHING!

And the change with MotU that made pretty much every Lvl 17-19 Quest outside of IQ1+2 nigh on impossible to get a Group for means the Manufactory is also set at the wrong level!
Make it Base Lvl 20 and Epic with XP similar to E-VoN 4 and I can assure you these quests will be run a lot more - Still the Raids are already Epic available so not sure what to do about them!



The biggest problem with Cannith Manufactory is that it came out just before the paradigm shift that was MotU!
It had it's issues even before MotU but after MotU those issues were exacerbated 100 fold!

EN VoN 3, Spies, WK = 3-400k xp in what? 40 mins total with an average Group?
An average Group won't complete the 3 E-BB Manufactory Quests in less than an Hour and will get maybe 100k xp total!

And after that one E-BB run Cannith Manufactory quests won't get run again that life while VoN 3, Spies etc. can be repeated every 18 hrs!

[dunklezhan]

Cannith Manufactory was a massive FAIL!

The quests are decent yes but the XP is average and the time to run them is very long - 30+ minutes each!.
The standard Slayer Zone isn't actually bad but isn't good either and seriously 60-70 mobs solo per instance and 7,500 Max = A lot of runs!

But the Raid Slayer Zones are ATROCIOUS!

And the Raids aren't run because they're such a pain to get a group to!

Those Raid Slayer Zones should either be:
- Made part of the Raid and lose the Slayer Counts!
OR
- have the doors removed and made part of the standard Slayer Zone with the NPC outside the entrance teleporting the whole Raid Group into the Raids!

Clearly I disagree with you Fran... except that I don't disagree with most of your observations. What I disagree with is the conclusion you draw for them. You've pointed out that the XP is average and that the raid slayers are a problem. I agree with both of these things, I just don't see that this makes them a "massive FAIL". I'm all for high standards across the board, but your bar for classifying something as a massive fail I think must be unreasonably low.

The raid zones are not "atrocious" for example. I believe that they certainly are a barrier to doing the raid but as explorers go, there's nothing really wrong with them.

The XP is, as you say, average. Well, something has to be, that's kind of the point of an average. It didnt' stand out, that's why I didnt' mention it. Something not "standing out" is not on its own a "fail". If the XP was very low for the effort then you'd have a point, but it isn't. Its just average for that level. Which is still quite a lot of XP.

I agree with your suggestions for tweaks.

Raid groups aren't interested in doing slayers, particularly since everyone in the group also needs to flag by running the quests. I wish they were interested because I like slayer zones... but they aren't. No point arguing about that fact.

So either make each zone part of the relevant raid, or merge them up to the main explorer/slayer/elite rewards and make the whole thing scale from 1 to 12, or, if both quests and traversing the raid zones are deemed for some reason 'required', then at least allow fast travel to the raids once the raid explorers have been explored (i.e. all scrolls found) - it is possible to solo these zones, just like its possible to solo the quests on elite at level, its just that in both cases its going to be pretty resource intensive for many people (which is not in and of itself a problem).

But XP and this one mechanic does not make the whole thing a fail, nor does it mean that the concepts, design and approach to the quests weren't good.

It just means there's room for tweaking.

I've also realised that the there is another obvious reason these raids died - shortly afterwards we got a level cap increase and a whole other world to explore in the form of MOTU. I don't think this changes anything though: making the raids easier to access would still help, and I would oppose an XP hike if that genuinely is a huge barrier for the folks you want running it - i.e. experienced raiders (who tend also to be experienced players with multiple past lives and gear anyway).

[Enoach]

My opinion on why these quests are not regulars on many peoples run list and why the raids are not run as often...

1. They are Level 19 Quests - Due to the amount of XP available in the game even a 3rd Life character skipping all Quests that can be run on Epic (To preserve BB for Epics) will have a hard time not reaching 3.8 million XP by the time they have finished all Level 17 quests. This assumes doing a once and done Elite runs and not restricted on quests available, VIP and Guild XP bonus and Tome of Learning.

2. Because of this there are fewer people that are actually Flagged

3. Even though a Level 21 can run these quests with Bravery Bonus, the XP compared to others at that level is less (Of course this discounts the XP the 3 Quests make available via the Raids)

4. While I hate to agree here, it is the run out pre-explorer area. I think in both cases these explorer areas would have been better suited as Pre-Raids much like VoN5.


These are well designed Quests/Raids that are under-appreciated because they exist at the transition point of Heroic and Epic. The Raid Crafted Weapons/Shields even at Tier 2 (ML18) or Tier 3 (ML20) are good until you get to ML23/24 or 24/25 Weapons/Shields. Additionally, outside of named gear the only place you can create Material Crystal weapons or Handwraps comparable to GS.

[Loromir]

The only change I would make is a fast travel to the raids once you've fully explorerd the raid explorer areas - if only to try to get the raid going again. From the videos I've seen, both raids are similarly masterclasses, in particular the Lord of Blades. You should get epic versions of those done, pronto.

Actually, LOB and Master Artificer do have Epic Difficulties.

[dunklezhan]

Actually, LOB and Master Artificer do have Epic Difficulties.

Hah! How did I not know this?!

Not that it matters, I still don't see any groups up for them, and I'm reasonably convinced that its because of the need to traverse 2 explorer zones, 1 of which is a raid zone to get to each of them.

And also yes I didn't mention XP. Its a long way down the priority list for me in terms of whether I run a quest or not although its certainly a big factor in whether I will repeat a quest on a given life since I consider that a measure of last resort anyway.

In any case, I don't think the XP is that bad for these quests. We were pulling 15-30K on HE first time run throughs which is not bad for heroic quests, even high level ones.

[Loromir]

Hah! How did I not know this?!

Not that it matters, I still don't see any groups up for them, and I'm reasonably convinced that its because of the need to traverse 2 explorer zones, 1 of which is a raid zone to get to each of them.

I think this is the biggest barrier to having more groups for these raids.

[Livmo]

Hah! How did I not know this?!

Not that it matters, I still don't see any groups up for them, and I'm reasonably convinced that its because of the need to traverse 2 explorer zones, 1 of which is a raid zone to get to each of them.

And also yes I didn't mention XP. Its a long way down the priority list for me in terms of whether I run a quest or not although its certainly a big factor in whether I will repeat a quest on a given life since I consider that a measure of last resort anyway.

In any case, I don't think the XP is that bad for these quests. We were pulling 15-30K on HE first time run throughs which is not bad for heroic quests, even high level ones.

It's difficult to get the ingrediants for Alchemical Crafting. You can be epic an run the raids on heroic to get the base elemental essences and run the epic raids for the higher tier essences.

Thus you will sometime see on Sarlona people not running the raids on heroic for the xp, but for the base essences. I will most likely always drop what I'm doing for an MA or LoB regardless of difficulty if I see an LFM up.

One of my Alchemical weapons can be found in this post. A fully upgraded weapoin is ML 20, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5804913

[Paleus]

Just going to throw the last two copper at this thread because I think both these quests, and now this thread, are underlining a longstanding problem with DDO.

The OP starts by extolling the design of several quests. Focusing on things like narrative quality with statements about it being "atmospheric", being the first to introduce "narrated scroll explorer mechanic", how "LoB is a menacing presence", and how they "alternate silliness and seriousness"

They then point out that there is variety in these quests, "an escort quest that works, with a kick ass end fight", "ingeniously dangerous trap sections"
"hidden stuff everywhere", "option to skip two dangerous encounters safely..", and of course the option to beat down DR/100 barriers if you can't solve puzzles.

They also focus on how encounters are setup to provide variety of danger,"fights are pretty tough thanks to the mix of mobs and the spells that are getting laid down" and variety of strategy, "right mix of melee and ranged will win the day far better and faster than just one or the other."

And, to top it off, acknowledge that it is missing that all too common design feature we now have,"And barely a 'kill all to proceed' mechanic in sight"

All of these elements are discussed when talking about how they create good quests. But what did this thread turn into instead? What's the XP/Min bro? If that's not good, these aren't good quests....uh what? Seriously, last comment because if people can't grasp the simple difference between designing a good quest at the story, paths to solutions, and challenge level versus solely focusing on how it fits into the larger reward structure of the game, then there is no point in discussing what makes a good quest. You're just focusing on what makes a good hamster wheel.

If the only problem with these quest could be fixed with simple adjustments to how they fit into the larger game's reward mechanics (and the mentioned add of teleporters to the raids) then that shouldn't need to take up so much of the conversation focus it. We should have all just said, yeah, for these quests, up their XP, maybe move their level, and add teleports. Then build more quests that have these same design mechanics, just, you know, don't give the new one's lousy XP so that they can fit into people's dailies or TRs if that's all they care about.