Producer's Letter

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Martial artists sometimes use a single sword in their main hand but also use their off-hand and feet.

A sword in main hand and some kinda mystical newly-coded-as-weapon-hand-wrap in off-hand for DDO purposes would be TWF.

What would be spectacular is something defensive for off-hand that doesn't un-center you and is not a HW.

Something in the Henshin Mystic tree that gives a defensive bump when using SWF while centered or allowed the use of orbs (T5 or 4th core thing).

[Zistra]

Just out of curiosity, is there any real reason we can't treat Flurry of Blows like fighting with two weapons?

Is there any real reason why, then, we can't require separate handwraps (even different ones) on each hand? Two weapon fighting requires this, why not Monks using Flurry of Blows?

Is there any real reason why we can simulate the Monk's increase in damage as they level up by just increasing the damage handwraps do as ML level increases? That could account for both the number of dice done and the increase in the value (Ex: d6 vs. d8) of the dice they do.

Sure, we'd then make Monk more gear-dependant than it was intended but no more so than other classes. If we did this, it sure makes the handwraps fix much easier.

One simple reason: Monk damage with wraps goes up with MONK level, not character level. It's the only thing remaining that keeps monk multiclasses from completely overpowering monks. If you put that damage increase onto the wraps themselves, why would anyone take pure monk?

[Uska]

This is kind of the back bone of what I'm saying should be done. Though I tend to think of Flurry of blows as a bonus not a replacement for TWF (I've know guys in PnP who just think it works out as free TWF though). DDO looks to think of its as a bonus as well and is why monks have a faster attack animation then other classes when unarmed, though it is kind of confusing.

For the base damage DDO already does what you are talking about they just increase the +W instead of the base die.

IMO what should be done is

• Handwraps One-Handed Light Weapon base stats 1d2 + x 20/x2
  
• Flurry of Blows
  
  • As is +
  • While fighting unarmed or with handwraps and no other weapon equipped you attack animation is changed to the martial arts style animation.
• Unarmed Strike
  
  • As is +
  • When using Handwraps your base damage is now 1d6.
  • While fighting unarmed or with a handwrap your offhand does 100% stat damage.
  • I would personally let this work in such a way that some one with a Shortword main hand and Handwrap offhand would gain 100% stat on there offhand attack but thats just me.
• Unarmed = no weapons equipped, and has the default 20% offhand proc.
• Ensure when you have the SWF feats they will only turn on if you have a weapon equipped on your main hand and no weapon or shield in your other hand (since handwraps are now weapons if you only have one equipped in your main hand you can get the SWF bonus)
• Note if you equip two handwraps you gain the default 20% offhand proc rate like with any other weapon.
  
• Wolf and Bear From unarmed
  • You can equip no weapon other then handwraps while in wolf or bear form
    
  • Wolf
    • While unarmed or wearing handwraps you base weapon damage die is now 1d6 (or 1d2 +4)
    • +1 Critical Threat to handwraps unique bonus type.
  • Bear
    • While unarmed or wearing handwraps you base weapon damage die is now 1d8 (or 1d2 +6)
  • Winter Wolf
    • While unarmed or wearing handwraps you base weapon damage die is now 1d10 (or 1d2 +8)
    • +1 Critical Threat to handwraps unique bonus type.
    • +1 Crit multiplier to handwraps unique bonus type.
  • Dier Bear
    • While unarmed or wearing handwraps you base weapon damage die is now 1d12 (or 1d2 +10)
    • +1 Crit multiplier to handwraps unique bonus type.
  • Remove the Natural Fighting Feats Bear and Wolf can now use either the TWF or SWF feats.

Way to complicated and prone to bugs plus way to much dev time

[Zistra]

One simple reason: Monk damage with wraps goes up with MONK level, not character level. It's the only thing remaining that keeps monk multiclasses from completely overpowering monks. If you put that damage increase onto the wraps themselves, why would anyone take pure monk?

That being said, there's enough precedent for automatic class feats that it probably wouldn't be impossible to code monk increasing handwrap damage as an auto-granted monk feat of +.5[W] with wraps every 4th monk level if that would clean up the code any. There's enough other stacking +[W] enhancements in the game for specific weapons, it ought to be a no-brainer.

[Grailhawk]

Way to complicated and prone to bugs plus way to much dev time

umm the complicated part is turning handwraps into weapons, the rest of it falls into place once they do that, and they are talking about turning handwraps into weapons ...

[Zistra]

There is nothing in the DDO or PnP rules that prevents you from making an attack at 150% stat damage nor is ther anything in the rules that forces a monk to fight in the TWF style.

Nothing but logic. The only way a monk gets 150% stat damage "unarmed" is if they've ripped off your arm and are beating you with it. The THF bonus is for having two hands on a heavy weapon and adding all the strength of one arm and a fraction of the strength of the other combined into one blow.

And no, PnP rules don't suggest monks fight TWF.. in fact, they suggest they fight 4WF (hands and feet).. or 6 (elbows) or 8 (knees) or 9 (head). That has nothing to do with DDO's implementation of the class. If you're hitting with your feet, it would be strange to get the effects from your handwraps on the blow.

[Grailhawk]

Nothing but logic. The only way a monk gets 150% stat damage "unarmed" is if they've ripped off your arm and are beating you with it. The THF bonus is for having two hands on a heavy weapon and adding all the strength of one arm and a fraction of the strength of the other combined into one blow.

And no, PnP rules don't suggest monks fight TWF.. in fact, they suggest they fight 4WF (hands and feet).. or 6 (elbows) or 8 (knees) or 9 (head). That has nothing to do with DDO's implementation of the class. If you're hitting with your feet, it would be strange to get the effects from your handwraps on the blow.

So exactly how is a SWF Dagger using gripping a dagger with both hands?

It seams you have a very narrow view of how martial arts and fighting in general works.

[Zistra]

So exactly how is a SWF Dagger using gripping a dagger with both hands?

It seams you have a very narrow view of how martial arts and fighting in general works.

DDO has (recently) tried to even the playing field by downplaying Strength. I get the idea of having Dex be the primary stat and the more dextrous [SWF fighters] among us might get 150% stat damage by careful blow placement. I even get the idea of doing the same with Int. When Cha got the nod (PDK Iconics), imo things started to get nonsensical. "I'll hit you with my self-image and leadership!" So you're right. I have a narrower view than DDO's apparent current direction, which appears to be trying to level the playing field by making all stats equal on the battlefield as primary combat stats.

In reality, DDO's implementation of handwraps and unarmed fighting is probably more like boxing than like any other martial art. As alluded to previously, most martial arts use more, not fewer, body parts in attacks. However, that only supports my contention that SWF is ridiculous in this realm. SWF was supposed to bring to mind rapier and epee dueling: A single lightweight weapon in one hand that gets all the focus and thus attacks faster [and hits harder]. Adding an orb or buckler to the other hand wasn't too much a perversion of the idea. But suggesting that any martial art is similar in form.. is.

[Steve_Howe]

One simple reason: Monk damage with wraps goes up with MONK level, not character level. It's the only thing remaining that keeps monk multiclasses from completely overpowering monks. If you put that damage increase onto the wraps themselves, why would anyone take pure monk?

Maybe you make it so the number of monk levels = the ML level of the wraps in order to equip them. Seems pretty easy to do to me.

[Grailhawk]

DDO has (recently) tried to even the playing field by downplaying Strength. I get the idea of having Dex be the primary stat and the more dextrous among us might get 150% stat damage by careful blow placement. I even get the idea of doing the same with Int. When Cha got the nod (PDK Iconics), imo things started to get nonsensical. "I'll hit you with my self-image and leadership!" So you're right. I have a narrower view than DDO's apparent current direction, which appears to be trying to level the playing field by making all stats equal on the battlefield as primary combat stats.

In reality, DDO's implementation of handwraps and unarmed fighting is probably more like boxing than like any other martial art. As alluded to previously, most martial arts use more, not fewer, body parts in attacks. However, that only supports my contention that SWF is ridiculous in this realm. SWF was supposed to bring to mind rapier and epee dueling: A single lightweight weapon in one hand that gets all the focus and thus attacks faster. Adding an orb or buckler to the other hand wasn't too much a perversion of the idea. But suggesting that any martial art is similar in form.. is.

Right there are different kinds of martial arts and on top of that with in martial arts there are different fighters who do things differently. You may not want to accept that a fighter might have a dominate hand that's fine, but your are wrong, and one way to model this dominance is SWF.

[Grailhawk]

Maybe you make it so the number of monk levels = the ML level of the wraps in order to equip them. Seems pretty easy to do to me.

Why? The +W is already a class feature for monks, that should be enough plus anything they add in the trees that only works with hand wraps.

Wraps should work like any other weapon. e.g. TF Longssword is 4.5[1d8] + 12 base TF handwraps should be become 4.5[1d2] +12. Monk class features should turn that in to 7.5[1d6] + 12 possibly 7.5[1d8] +12 given the Tier 5 from Shintao.

[Uska]

Right there are different kinds of martial arts and on top of that with in martial arts there are different fighters who do things differently. You may not want to accept that a fighter might have a dominate hand that's fine, but your are wrong, and one way to model this dominance is SWF.

Monks already have enough bugs and issues without adding something that isn't needed or wanted but by a few and I think I know why but I will keep that bad kettle of fish to myself

[Uska]

umm the complicated part is turning handwraps into weapons, the rest of it falls into place once they do that, and they are talking about turning handwraps into weapons ...

They said they would like to if it was that easy it would have been done years ago

[Grailhawk]

Monks already have enough bugs and issues without adding something that isn't needed or wanted but by a few and I think I know why but I will keep that bad kettle of fish to myself

I want options, nothing else. I'm just expressing an opinion I have no idea what this kettle you are talking about is, and what I want most of all, more then options even, is a system that is 100% bug free. My take is the system I'm presenting is the least prone to bugs because its a strait copy of how every other weapon in DDO works, could be wrong.

They said they would like to if it was that easy it would have been done years ago

Right but they (Sev) is the one who brought it up first I just happen to really like the idea because it homogenizes the system which I feel is less prone to bugs like the once wolfs exploit.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The exception that proves the rule it still isn't a single martial art that backs his point. Unarmed is already buggy enough without adding mickey mouse nonsense as having to chose TWF or SWF which makes about as much sense as allowing unarmed to be THF

I would interpret this as:

"I am such a great master, my main hand attack is so good that I don't even need my Increases the chance to proc an off-hand attack by 20%, bringing the total chance to 80%. abilities to beat you, oh humble grasshopper."

Just as the great master had to actually slow down his attack speed as the cameras turned out to be too slow to record his fighting.

Kudos, oh student of the Kobold ways +1 for your craftiness.

Personally I am not going to get into the Monk / Handwrap debate (debunckle?) except to say that Uurlock's Monk lives where Moncher - partly because I loved ranged, partly because Monchers are (IMHO) fun, partly because handwraps were/are borked, and partly because unless you Twitch'd you were gimp (and still are).

Twitching is ok - but if you have to run with a controller and play a certain way in order to succeed, then it is not fun (IMHO). For the Monk/Handwrap pass: KISS (Keep It Simple and Succinct)

And thank you - Bruce Lee had/has many good things to teach.

Wish the 24000 fps ultra-super-duper-Mythbusters cameras were around for Master Lee.

[knightgf]

~ A4 involves the players being captured, and we did not think that players would find playing an area with no gear as particularly fun, especially when we looked into the cost of the new tech required to make something like that work. As an aside, I also liked the fight on the docks and understand the desire to see it in DDO.

I think the idea has potental outside of the game, however, I would not want this in DDO not because it would not be fun but because it would be too risky. Think about it: Do you REALLY want to take a chance on losing your hard-earned items? We're already facing potental problems with item loss from using the shared bank, and previously had item loss occur in the Abbot raid (Which I hear is fixed). The idea of entering a dungeon without anything in DDO would be a fun idea though, because it forces EVERYONE, from your simple fighters to your complex casters, to make new strategies on how to conquer a dungeon. No spell components, no weapons, no armor, all you have in the beginning are just your skills, your non-component spells, and any enhancements that work without items.

[Baal222]

I'm probably beating a dead horse with this pipe dream.... But hireling revamps? This game needs em so badly. Especially considering what appears to be a dwindling playerbase. The hirelings are excruciatingly frustrating, and groups can be hard to fill.

[Eth]

~ The idea for making Slave Lord 8 was it can follow Temple of Elemental Evil. I will revisit the heroic level with the team and see if we want to target 9 or 10.

Make it 10 then, that level could really use some more quests.
Current level 10 quests are either end quests of chains (Co6, Threnal) or Titan flagging.

9 already has two of the most popular high XP quests (VoN3, Shadowcrypt).

[Zzevel]

I'm probably beating a dead horse with this pipe dream.... But hireling revamps? This game needs em so badly. Especially considering what appears to be a dwindling playerbase. The hirelings are excruciatingly frustrating, and groups can be hard to fill.

You can't post this here, clearly this thread is only for the 3 babbling idiots and hand wraps.. lol, but I agree with you

[Uska]

I'm probably beating a dead horse with this pipe dream.... But hireling revamps? This game needs em so badly. Especially considering what appears to be a dwindling playerbase. The hirelings are excruciatingly frustrating, and groups can be hard to fill.

No time spent on hirelings please the game was 1000000000000000% better before they were added


See sig