U31 Poor man's ranger

[BigErkyKid]

Hi,


This is the build I am running in. It is a very defensive melee ranger build that uses displacement dragon marks. Yes, some of us don't have the stomach to get displacement clickies for every melee toon. There isn't anything very elaborate about it, but with the new items / feats you can get a reasonably tanky build (for regular questing, cannot tank the new raids). It is also very self contained and doesn't rely much on gear, so I figured I'd post it as a reference for newish players. The drawback is that you give up on DPS since there aren't enough APs from know the angles. Also, compared to Eth's build (Noyellowbar 2.0) you lose a lot on being tanky via lost HPs. My experience, however, is that aside from raid bosses you can take a lot of punishment. I toss a consecrated ground and can easily tank the trash and boss in say good intentions. All in all, this works well as an entry level build for epics with good DPS and ranged and melee options.

This is what it brings to the table:

Defenses

• 4-5 Displacement uses (5 with epic chimera's crown): 24-30 minutes of displacement.
• ~20% dodge
• 220 PRR (240 with max stacks of deific warding)
• 15% incorporeal
• Decent AC (you will see some misses)
• Good reflex saves

[B][U]The build: 20 elven ranger with dragon marks

Built points
Spend the build points between DEX and CON. I use scimitars on this build.


Feats
Heroic
Precision
Completionist (toughness)
dragonmark
Imp crit slash
Imp crit range
Empower heal
Quicken
Epic
Overwhelming critical
Extend
Epic DR
Dodge
Destiny
Doubleshot
Perfect TWF
Deific warding
Legendary
Scion of earth

Enhancements
12 Elf
43 Tempest
25 Deepwood Stalker

Destiny
Legendary dreadnaught, I recommend spending some points in CON, the rest is up to you.

Twists (depends on what you can afford, this is suggested)
Rejuvenating cocoon
Sacred ground + consacration
Balanced attacks

PRR
10 (30)Deific warding
30 light armor
39 enhancements
60 sightless + legendary boots of the devil commander
18 (0-36) Past lives
30 Blitz
10 Epic damage reduction
20 Scion of earth
TOTAL: 199 pre deific warding stacks and without PLs. From there it just goes up.

Dodge
17 item
3 dodge
3 enhancements
TOTAL 23%. With easy to get items (epic belt of thoughtful remembrance) you can get to 17%.

[BigErkyKid]

So what can this build do?

I just test soloed to curse the sky on LE. I know others have done it (including an impressive 1 kill impeccable version by a rogue), but I think it is still a good test run. I had 3 deaths but that's just because I forgot to use my TF armor clicky to pick the crest where all the slaads are and they boxed me in a shrine. Unfortunately my hide / move silently skill is not sufficient to avoid detection by the mobs in LE, so it took me ~30-40 minutes of carefully pulling the bigger groups. A good strategy is to pick a corner to avoid being boxed, throw a consecrated ground and use dance of death.

PS - In comparison the end fight is trivially easy. Pick a corner, aggro malicia, throw CG and auto attack and refresh DPS boosts.

[AbyssalMage]

I was thinking of a similar build with slightly different Feats. Maybe I will ER and level back to 30 just to try it out (once I get back to Epics/level 30) instead of TR'ing immediately. I'll be going Rapier/Pierce but that is inconsequential (I would think).

[BigErkyKid]

I was thinking of a similar build with slightly different Feats. Maybe I will ER and level back to 30 just to try it out (once I get back to Epics/level 30) instead of TR'ing immediately. I'll be going Rapier/Pierce but that is inconsequential (I would think).

Fair warning, the full potential shows at cap. You need the PRR / Dodge and stuff to face the upper level quests, otherwise you go splat easily. I mean I guess this is true of all melee builds nowadays (post PRR nerf).

This is my attempt at a decent DPS / defenses melee build for end game content. If you just want to get ePLs done or farm for items, go for an "bulldozer" enlightened spirit build.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Fair warning, the full potential shows at cap. You need the PRR / Dodge and stuff to face the upper level quests, otherwise you go splat easily. I mean I guess this is true of all melee builds nowadays (post PRR nerf).

all melees are capable of completing all quests at level, and i dont see why they would struggle under level.

the only circumstances that i think call for sacrificing any amount of dps whatsoever on a melee is legendaries, but...that is why there is a lot of prr available.

[BigErkyKid]

all melees are capable of completing all quests at level, and i dont see why they would struggle under level.

the only circumstances that i think call for sacrificing any amount of dps whatsoever on a melee is legendaries, but...that is why there is a lot of prr available.

What I meant here is that someone might jump into LE quests at lower levels, aggro an alert and complain that the defenses aren't enough. As I said, if you want to farm PLs in EH/EN then nothing beats a warlock.

Now if you want to jump in the new raids or even the quests and you don't have a hefty amount of defenses good luck on melee. The ranger is particularly bad because TWF + dance of death demands that you stand your ground to be effective. It is a bit counter intuitive because you'd expect the typical THF fighter to demand more defenses, but that's absolutely not true.

So suppose you have aggroed a pack of mobs in a quest on LE and want to melee them down with dance of death. This requires that you don't move (attack speed while moving on TWF...), that you don't interrupt your attacks to heal (dance of death is on duration). For this play style having high defenses is crucial, IMHO, and well worth not squeezing in the last drop of DPS.

If you tell me that you play in a static group with a healer and a tank and what not, by all means go ahead and go for moar DPS. This "build" is meant for those who are not so lucky, and potentially don;t have every single ePL for PRR and what not.

[Axeyu]

I used scion of the shadowfell on my ranger. With all the double strikes, off hands and DoD you get a lot of healing from it. I figured the elemental damage from the other scions would mostly be resisted anyways.

I agree that defenses are very important. Con is the new main stat.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What I meant here is that someone might jump into LE quests at lower levels, aggro an alert and complain that the defenses aren't enough. As I said, if you want to farm PLs in EH/EN then nothing beats a warlock.

Now if you want to jump in the new raids or even the quests and you don't have a hefty amount of defenses good luck on melee. The ranger is particularly bad because TWF + dance of death demands that you stand your ground to be effective. It is a bit counter intuitive because you'd expect the typical THF fighter to demand more defenses, but that's absolutely not true.

So suppose you have aggroed a pack of mobs in a quest on LE and want to melee them down with dance of death. This requires that you don't move (attack speed while moving on TWF...), that you don't interrupt your attacks to heal (dance of death is on duration). For this play style having high defenses is crucial, IMHO, and well worth not squeezing in the last drop of DPS.

If you tell me that you play in a static group with a healer and a tank and what not, by all means go ahead and go for moar DPS. This "build" is meant for those who are not so lucky, and potentially don;t have every single ePL for PRR and what not.

for me personally, one of the absolute best most amazing things about ddo is the fact that bigger weapons actually have enough of a reach advantage combined with full mobility while attacking that they provide an awesome level of hidden defense. of course, realistically you still need ******** amounts of defensive stats on such a build because you are still going to be hit a lot because thats just what happens.

also im not saying every melee build should get every last point of dps possible, because the game is at legendaries and as i said, in legendaries even a dps nut like myself will start making sacrifices to stay alive. im just saying i dont think melees have any issues staying alive in any content right now. what i think is killing melees is a lack of willingness or capability to adapt to the current conditions present in legendaries regarding incoming damage. if i was playing a ranger, id be using my bow plenty, not pulling aggro, and staying behind enemies or outside of the area of their attacks, actually using trip and possibly stun (i know i personally would be), and if i was soloing id be pulling less mobs than what i would on a pure barb. and i think its a good thing that a lower defense character will have to play more cautiously or slowly than a higher defense character. of course then there is always the option to play like a higher defense character and succeed, by choosing to build a higher defense character. which is again, why there is so much prr and etc available.

[BigErkyKid]

for me personally, one of the absolute best most amazing things about ddo is the fact that bigger weapons actually have enough of a reach advantage combined with full mobility while attacking that they provide an awesome level of hidden defense.

Yeah, that's the big advantage of THF. I prefer THF by a lot, it simply is a lot more fluid than TWF. SWF is a bit in between, but truth is that if you want to jump around, cleave, retreat, and use active combat, nothing beats THF. Shield play has quite a bit of active combat, but they nerfed the DPS so badly that I had to TR out of it in tears.

For that reason, a ranger TWF that intends to take aggro must built for defense or just not play end game at top difficulties.

also im not saying every melee build should get every last point of dps possible, because the game is at legendaries and as i said, in legendaries even a dps nut like myself will start making sacrifices to stay alive. im just saying i dont think melees have any issues staying alive in any content right now. what i think is killing melees is a lack of willingness or capability to adapt to the current conditions present in legendaries regarding incoming damage.

Truth is that there is little to nothing one can do alone to play effectively a melee in true end game (LE raids). If you have aggro for long enough, you simply will die. You can build an uber tank and take a few shots, but then the DPS will just be pathetic. So as far as I can tell effective players either play in a group with roles (wizard dancing and holding, etc.) or go ranged. The rest is just building for frustration.

if i was playing a ranger, id be using my bow plenty, not pulling aggro, and staying behind enemies or outside of the area of their attacks, actually using trip and possibly stun (i know i personally would be), and if i was soloing id be pulling less mobs than what i would on a pure barb. and i think its a good thing that a lower defense character will have to play more cautiously or slowly than a higher defense character. of course then there is always the option to play like a higher defense character and succeed, by choosing to build a higher defense character. which is again, why there is so much prr and etc available.

I think the debate is on what true end game is going to be. If it is like the LE quests, then by all means keep playing melees. Need to be more cautious than ranged toons, and need more investment than the new shiradis, but it is nevertheless possible and viable.If on the contrary it is going to be like LE raids, then melees are a luxury good for raiding end game guilds. They have still great sustained single target DPS, which is helpful to avoid having to chuck pots for ruins.

If you want to play a raiding melee build, I recommend either rogue, ranger, or bard. I don't think any other build comes close to the single target damage rogue and ranger have. If you focus on a single toon, I'd say play a ranger. It will allow you to solo the vast majority of end game quests and it will still be a decent raiding toon. Bard is good if you need crouches to play. Fascinate will allow you to play at your own rhythm and the DPS is enough to get the job done.

Melees that are considered top are now (very often) a rookie trap.

Barbs: are good for some questing and "easier" raids but simply stink in current LE raids. In some quests they are harder to play (abishais + abishai + abishai...), but they hold their ground everything considered. However, once to raids they are IMHO suboptimal. Not enough DPS to merit a spot.
Paladins: are a bit better in raids than barbs but don't pack enough DPS (IMO) to make it into an elite raiding context

Then there are what IMHO are decent melee raiders

Bards: are overlooked, but probably in a great spot for raiding. Fascinate is simply fantastic, and swashbuckler brings you decent DPS, can build for excellent DC through freezes, self heals and excellent damage avoidance through Dodge. The issue is that probably one bard per party is enough, then the contribution has heavy decreasing returns.
Rangers: As discussed, they are awesome questing (if built correctly) and great for farming gear. They hold their ground in raids.
Assassins: Are good DPSers and useful in raiding parties, but stink at soloing end game quests.
Acrobats: Are decent, pack a bit more defense than assassins, but IMHO the loss in DPS is not compensated. I'd say they are OKIsh are semi-decent DPSers. It is for me a flavor build but not a total waste.

Undecided on fighters

Even after the buff, they have serious shortcomings. Bards aside, I don't think anyone can build heals effective for true end game. Fighters have PRR going for them but that is pretty meaningless in LE raids anyway (boom dead if you get hit). The MRR can help with the amount of elemental damage we are seeing (just not to be one shot by everything). Their signature can be the tactics, which could be good for single target lock down, but that is mostly wizard's business anyway: anything that can be CC with tactics can be taken care by a wizard. The helpless damage could help bring down some trash faster.

Their DPS is good, but I don't know how it compares to a blitzing assassin. Certainly a fighter has to be THF, and it packs a big amount of base damage and MP. But is it sufficient to compensate for the massive sneak attack? If the THF fighter does not have MORE DPS than the rogue, then I'd say it is a wasted party spot in a LE raid ATM.

For questing, just tag along parties, play carefully, or go slowly in US. I bet any quest in the game can be done like that.

At the end of the day I think what will matter the most is what direction we see in the new raids. If they tone down the damage, then there will be some better DPS / Heals options. If they insist in keeping it as it is, then only uber DPS will matter.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

werdz

interesting read.

i think your class assessments are defeatist, quite wrong, and arent representative of what certain classes are actually capable of.

and none of that adds up with my personal experiences at all.

[BigErkyKid]

interesting read.

i think your class assessments are defeatist, quite wrong, and arent representative of what certain classes are actually capable of.

and none of that adds up with my personal experiences at all.

Lol

On the contrary I find it quite insightful and realistic. My assessment is restricted to pure end game though, as I don't give a darn about epic Gh and impossible demands.

But do tell me what you think. Just fair warning, I ll block you if you dare mention tree builds!

[Kebtid]

Some feats dont offer good scaling thus making them a bad pick up, no focus on int and thus losing kta also is a kind of drop in damage.

IF you really think survival is as important, have you considerd a con based dwarf ranger?
(since i see you really sacrifice to much for survival on a class that should focus purely on damage)

[BigErkyKid]

Some feats dont offer good scaling thus making them a bad pick up, no focus on int and thus losing kta also is a kind of drop in damage.

IF you really think survival is as important, have you considerd a con based dwarf ranger?
(since i see you really sacrifice to much for survival on a class that should focus purely on damage)

This is built around the dragon marks for displacement (as I lack displacement clicked on the toon) I would say it is a solo questing build, with enough dps to complete quests and sufficient defense for any end game quest. If you try playing on a ranger without displacement you wil soon find yourself a soul stone.

Hence the new player friendly tag to it. If you are an advanced player and have the gear for it, by all means human Khopesh. That build is already posted though.

[Grailhawk]

Their DPS is good, but I don't know how it compares to a blitzing assassin. Certainly a fighter has to be THF, and it packs a big amount of base damage and MP. But is it sufficient to compensate for the massive sneak attack? If the THF fighter does not have MORE DPS than the rogue, then I'd say it is a wasted party spot in a LE raid ATM.

Math I've seen (not mine or I would post it) suggests TWF Fighter out DPS Ranger by ~1000, there is enough melee power in the Kensei tree that, that doesn't seam unfeasible (melee power is worth more to a TWF then Doublestrike is because it effects both hands equally Tempest is loaded with doublestrike more than anything else).

Any kind of healing issue that a fighter has is solved by Bladeforged, and the fact that the Fighter only really need one tree makes this affordable.

My thoughts are that once the dust settles Single Target DPS: Kensei > Tempest, AOE DPS: Tempest > Kensei, well see though could be wrong.

[BigErkyKid]

Math I've seen (not mine or I would post it) suggests TWF Fighter out DPS Ranger by ~1000, there is enough melee power in the Kensei tree that, that doesn't seam unfeasible (melee power is worth more to a TWF then Doublestrike is because it effects both hands equally Tempest is loaded with doublestrike more than anything else).

Any kind of healing issue that a fighter has is solved by Bladeforged, and the fact that the Fighter only really need one tree makes this affordable.

My thoughts are that once the dust settles Single Target DPS: Kensei > Tempest, AOE DPS: Tempest > Kensei, well see though could be wrong.

I think that max hide + sneak Tempest > Kensei THF single target. Remember that tempest can pick +20MP from ToEE and realistically THF can't. Then I think that obviously tempest > kensei for AOE.

As for TWF kensei, that would gimp your AOE pretty badly, but maybe it could be superior DPS. I would say that at a pretty high cost.

But you are right that since they sneak boosted the 4th core things are becoming tighter and harder to say. I'd like to see those numbers, are they posted somewhere around here?

[Grailhawk]

I think that max hide + sneak Tempest > Kensei THF single target. Remember that tempest can pick +20MP from ToEE and realistically THF can't. Then I think that obviously tempest > kensei for AOE.

As for TWF kensei, that would gimp your AOE pretty badly, but maybe it could be superior DPS. I would say that at a pretty high cost.

But you are right that since they sneak boosted the 4th core things are becoming tighter and harder to say. I'd like to see those numbers, are they posted somewhere around here?

Numbers are not public.

[Kebtid]

Math I've seen (not mine or I would post it) suggests TWF Fighter out DPS Ranger by ~1000, there is enough melee power in the Kensei tree that, that doesn't seam unfeasible (melee power is worth more to a TWF then Doublestrike is because it effects both hands equally Tempest is loaded with doublestrike more than anything else).

Any kind of healing issue that a fighter has is solved by Bladeforged, and the fact that the Fighter only really need one tree makes this affordable.

My thoughts are that once the dust settles Single Target DPS: Kensei > Tempest, AOE DPS: Tempest > Kensei, well see though could be wrong.

Quite possible, i wouldnt be surprised if that was the case after testing kensei a bit, from my testing it seems to do to "much" dps.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Lol

On the contrary I find it quite insightful and realistic. My assessment is restricted to pure end game though, as I don't give a darn about epic Gh and impossible demands.

But do tell me what you think. Just fair warning, I ll block you if you dare mention tree builds!

i dont think your opinions are necessarily unrealistic. after all, they were formed by real experiences you had. i just dont think youve figured out how to play some classes successfully in certain content, which is overly coloring your impressions of how they do, or at least can, perform in said content. not to mention you deny yourself opportunities for self improvement (displace clickies. the fact that i dont know you in game, and im not your forum bff, and yet i know this fact without reminder is really sad for one or both of us...).

what do you think my assessments are based on?

did an le shroud attempt with a guild i used to be in on a pure barb, and i died less without having outside heals and did more dps than every other person in the group, and we had tank build characters, "dps" characters in sentinel (ugh...), monkchers, and shiradis. does this evidence by itself mean barbs are da bestest? or does it mean im da bestest? or does it mean im simply more prepared and coordinated than a bunch of people who didnt even to twist piercing clarity/grim precision instead of sense weakness for raids?

ive successfully tanked ee sorjek on a pure barb build without being one shot, dying (and i dont have max prr/hp past lives, probably around half or a little more for both?), or losing aggro, and it was a very fast endfight for ts on any difficulty, because it wasnt handled by 12 chickens with their heads cut off. if i took your word for it though, id never have rolled a barb because id get oneshot by a sneeze, assuming i even got into a raid because i wouldnt contribute enough to even be worth it for someone to accept me.

yes, some classes are easier than others to be successful with, but ultimately, its not the class, its how you play it.

for the past coulpe years since i finished completionist x1, i have exclusively been tring (he and ee streaking almost exclusively) mostly as thf melees and playing endgame exclusively as thf melees (i tried out ranger after the pass, did like 1 ee doj and was already so bored of ****ing boring ass twf that i had to tr even though it was a really strong build). i also have pretty much all the gear one could possibly want for such a build, offensive items, defensive items, specialty swap in items. i know exactly how my build/s handle just about every situation in the game. ive played a lot of epics, both the hard and easy ones, so im adjusted to the damage and comfortable with my methods of dealing with it (dps first, smart ability usage and movement second, defensive stats third, healing fourth priority). so no, im not your average player, but the point is, between the two of us, who do you think has a more in depth judgment of what heavy armor melee classes really are like when not used ineffectively. and no, we are not going to judge everything with the assumption that it is being used ineffectively, because every build when used ineffectively will struggle. a fighter who doesnt actually use his *free* cc feat (trip) is like a bard who doesnt use fascinate or inspire courage. also, we are not going to assume that a dps melee needs to be in sentinel ever for any reason, unless we are also willing to assume that a ranged or caster would ever need to be.

and to be fair, and very bluntly realistic, way way back when, before i had gotten completionist and i was very out of practice with epics which id only had moderate at best experience with, i tried a 3 man ee ddtw on a druid thf build. we failed the first time, and then the second time i switched to sentinel, as it was the only way i could stay alive to deal any damage at all (extra layer of healing, and extra reaction and wait time for heals because of higher defensive stats). when i got completionist, my next life i tred to what was at the time considered the best thf build in the game. and as soon as i hit 20, with no concept of the fact that levels of epic quests actually mean something or that there are in fact harder and easier epic quest chains, i went into an epic quest thinking i was well equipped to solo it (esos, eclaw set, litany, how could i not kick ass?) and got destroyed in the first room. nowadays i absolutely never use sentinel for quests, 1% of the time for raids, and i destroy every epic quest with even pre buff pure human fighter, or extremely suboptimal tr builds (16/2/2 thf arti with no trap skills...shoulda went 16/3/1 if i had a brain...9/8/3 sun elf thf monk...9/8/3 pdk thf monk...15/4/1 sun elf thf bard...soon gonna be 9/8/3 gnome thf lock). you know what the difference between now and then is? i learned how to play. i actually played at cap, and didnt tr for a long time. tr is all about an easy grind, and it doesnt teach you anything, doesnt challenge you, and encourages you to avoid anything that does challenge you, and it makes you a lazy and unskilled (not that i think theres much skill to be displayed in this game though) player. i watched videos of other players using my type of build who were successful, and i paid attention to their cd usage, movement, items, actions i didnt recognize or understand or see the purpose of, anything. and through gradual implementation and practice, i began to suck less and less.

so when i say i think your opinions of certain classes are defeatist because you think they have to be in sentinel to do le quests, wrong because you think they arent worth a raid slot and are less effective than other classes which may or may not be the case and which i also personally disagree with (not that those classes cant be effective, but i dont think the difference is big enough either way for a clear statement to be made about it) and because i think your evaluation of the practical dps of barb, paladin, fighter, and rogue are off, and not representative of what theyre actually capable of because you havent actually tried to see what theyre are actually capable of (again, displacement clickies bro, so easy to make, ill even give you the mats if you get the shards, or ask anyone since 9.63/10 players is a duper (not me though)) and apparently cant do without an easy button heal besides cocoon, yea, thats what i mean and why.


regarding fighters specifcally, i think they will out dps pallies and barbs (seems like a sure thing since u31.1) even before considering hit rating, which fighters are obviously going to be better at, perhaps by even 1-2 points on the die roll which is a big deal. i think fighter dps will laughably blow assassin dps out of the water (is acrobat even a thing? wut?) between being less situational, and more survivable, itll be no contest (not saying assassins arent good still, sneaking around picking off mages or whatever is valuable, but a blitzing assassin trying to sneak attack trash consistently? losing scenario for assassin. if a blitzing assassin is better dps on say sorjek and never pulls aggro, and never gets aoed (i think the only one a well positioned rogue without aggro would have to worry about is evadable), then good for the assassin, but does only one scenario make it a better dps class or more worthy of a raid slot?). i honestly have never played a swashbuckler or swf character, but i think fighter is massively superior due to higher defense, higher dps, and sufficient cc capability. basically id feel more inclined to give an important task in a raid to a decent fighter rather than a decent bard, though bard buffs are very nice.

[BigErkyKid]

i dont think your opinions are necessarily unrealistic. after all, they were formed by real experiences you had. i just dont think youve figured out how to play some classes successfully in certain content, which is overly coloring your impressions of how they do, or at least can, perform in said content. not to mention you deny yourself opportunities for self improvement (displace clickies. the fact that i dont know you in game, and im not your forum bff, and yet i know this fact without reminder is really sad for one or both of us...).
.

I think this sums up your wall.

I'll start by saying that I am not the bestamest player out there. Extended breaks, lack of a true elite raiding guild, insistence on trying new builds over optimizing an archetype, no gaming gear (I play on a Mac Pro with a 5 bucks mouse), too many flavor builds, all those are things that work against me. I am fine with that. I think that despite that (and not having 10 displacement clickies rolf) I can hold my ground IG. But in particular I think I am alright at evaluating builds (my comparative advantage), because occasional mistakes aside, it comes down to relatively simply maths. Here is the crux: that the math don't show the real gameplay, as obviously metagaming, gear, twitch skillz, and party coordination can go a long way. So I don't doubt that your barb did well in a group of people totally unprepared for a LE shroud. Or that you can take Sorj in a group that is smart enough to keep you up. But that's not to say that in an optimized party your role could have been filled better by another build.

Coming again to your example, for me the greatest advantage of a barb atm is decent heals WHILE dpsing. There is no other class that has that. Not having to interrupt your attacks to heal is a very big gain in DPS, and the natural tankiness of the class further adds to it. However, this gain is not that important in LE raids. The reason is that the incoming damage greatly outpaces the natural healing of the barb. In questing, that's not the case at all, since with decent defenses and good DPS (and a bit of luck) you can match incoming damage reasonably, with an emergency SF now and then. So if the barb can no longer DPS and heal together, I just judge the barbs by their DPS output.

That's not to say that the barb still has some advantages, for example it is unlikely to get one shot by most mobs, and uncanny dodge is a nice escape button. But I am not judging the class in a realistic messy gameplay scenario, rather in a perfectly optimized raiding party. Do those ever exist? Unlikely. Is this representative of the gameplay of the majority of people? No, of course not. Does this mean the exercise is silly? IMHO it isn't. Because by evaluating the limits of power, you get a sense of what the class could achieve. And to the extend that there is some continuity over the gameplay scenarios, gain some insight. It is also important for those who truly "work hard" to optimize a class / archetype (no one likes to be hard capped by the class capacities).

In such perfect party the barb becomes relatively marginal, IMHO. A proper tank is better at tanking (I do think there is a role for them in current raids), there are classes with better DPS output (ranger, assassin). A good party will have CC via holds and disco balls, and for no fail helpless damage there are better toons now (bards, fighters). So what exactly does the barb bring to that party that couldn't be done better by another build? The answer cannot be that it brings your skillz, because you could choose a better toon (say nowadays a pure kensei) and use the skillz on a sharper knife.

One might argue that end game is effectively 3 raids currently and that it is stupid to build for that. Also most people don't belong to elite raiding guilds so the heck do they care about optimal whatever. Finally, you might say that it is more fun to play as a certain archetype so screw "optimal". All those are valid points and I agree. I am not trying to calculate the optimal fun. But I think that a well designed game is one that you can "stress test" and doesn't crack. From the casual player, to the min maxer, I think the game designers ought to try to give a balanced game to all levels of commitment. Then from a player standpoint, I think that those posting builds have the responsibility not to mislead the reader (to the best of their knowledge). So I would not post a barb build nowadays and say it is the best raiding melee DPS just because I am good enough of a player to achieve that when I am compared to worse players.

PS - I have shards, I have some left over mats (and I guess I could get some more from long forgotten toons), but I'd need a few more to build the impressive arsenal some people have. It just unsettles my stomach every time I engage in what I believe is too much of a grind IG. Yeah right, and I chose to play a MMO...

[the_one_dwarfforged]

your wall.

just to be clear, im not trying to be insulting with the whole "i can do more with some classes because i learned to play". and its not personal either. i think if you, like most anyone else (obviously, cause if i can do it, everyone can), put the time into trying to be better at the classes you think are worthless or overly difficult, you would find that you actually can succeed at them. however, i do think its wrong to make blanket statements that are simply false, and you asked me to explain why i thought you blanket statements are false, and that is why. if i wasnt sure i knew what i was talking about, i wouldnt have said anything. so again, just know that i at least wasnt trying to be insulting.

and i dont think there really is much actual skill in this game. mostly its about stats, situational advantages, and game knowledge. skill isnt particularly necessary in this game if you simply make good decisions.

also, i play with the annoying wire mouse that came with my computer because my wireless mouse died, and neither is a gaming mouse and i dont have a gaming keyboard, or whatever other devices you could possibly have to make gaming easier or better. and i dont use macros for what thats worth, because i dont know how to write them and ive tried but im not smart enough to figure out how, and theyre not worth enough to me for the effort itd take a blockhead like me. and i am not and never have been in an "elite raiding guild", so clearly that isnt a factor. like i said, if i can perform successfully on classes we will for this sentence call bad for raiding in raids, you can too. if you want to.

im also not judging your gaming style on a personal level. i personally think that the most important thing in this game is for people to do whatever is fun for them. for me, that is active combat which is why even though i want to try other things, i just cant stop thfing. for others, its tring non stop or only doing heroics or whatever, and thats perfectly fine, and in fact good. that said, i still think most people who tr too much are noobs, mostly because in my experience they are. i know i was, i know i have been in a ton of groups with people using fotm builds with twice as many or three times as many past lives as me and the same overall quality of gear, and they suck and die a lot more and complain about how its too hard. theyre just not accustomed to the higher difficulties; heroics and epic normals dont force you to actually play whatsoever, and im amazed people derive enjoyment from them.

regarding barb, i think they are solid in raids. yes, i do have to heal more (actually in quests i almost never actively heal myself), but lesser sf pots make that so easy its not even funny.

and as for displace clickies, yea, i dont like ridiculous grind either, but the thing is, displace clickies are so not a grind. 1 shard and 1 great shard and a handful of mats you can get off of anyone and you already have 2 charges. you dont need to do the whole raid, so its easy to farm. as far as grinds go in this game, self displacement is not one of them.