Weapon Damage Comparison for Vanguards

[Phil7]

Hey everyone, today I decided to find out which main-hand weapon offers the best dps for a Vanguard using a shield. Glancing Blows are also very important, but I will get into it later.
Nemesis has always said, ''there is no best, only best at''. And the results come to prove his words once more.

The tests were conducted with blank legendary green steel weapons copied from the ddo-wiki.
For Shield tests you should use the Epic Demonic Slab (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Demonic_Slab). It is at the moment the best shield for dps purposes.
The tested weapons are: dwarven axe, dwarven axe with Headman's Chop, bastard sword, khopesh and heavy pick & scimitar/rapier for the curious ones.
Note that Headman's Chop also gives a +1 crit multiplier (on 19-20) to your off-hand weapon aswell, which is your shield.

For critical values, I took into consideration the following:
Improved Critical feat
Holy Sword (Paladin) or Strike With No Thought + Keen Edge (Fighter)
Overwhelming Critical

According to the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow) 60-69% (with Malicious Weapons) of your regular damage on every 1st, 3d and 4th attack.
That means if 3/4 of your attacks trigger glancing blows then from 20 attacks (our sample) 15 are glancing blows.
Note that glancing blows can not critically hit or doublestrike.

I use a glancing blow testing damage of 60% of the normal weapon damage (all THF feats)
I did not inclued the roll of a 1, as it is always considered a miss and miss=0 damage

a) d.axe (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda...Dwarven_Waraxe)
45,65 -> 18/x4 & 19-20/x5

2-17 -> 16 x 45,65 = 730,4
18 -> 1 x 182,6 = 182,6
19-20 -> 2 x 228,25 = 456,5
= 1369,5 /20 = 68,47 average damage per hit
+(60% of 45,65) x 15 = 410,85
410,85 + 1369,5 = 1780,35 /20 = 89,01 average dmg per hit with glancing blows


b) d.axe (+1crit multiplier from Headman's Chop) (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda...Dwarven_Waraxe)
45,65 -> 18/x4 & 19-20/x6

2-17 -> 16 x 45,65 = 730,4
18 -> 1 x 182,6 = 182,6
19-20 -> 2 x 273,9 = 547,8
= 1460,8 /20 = 73,04 average damage per hit
+(60% of 45,65) x 15 = 410,85
410,85 + 1460,8 = 1871,65 /20 = 93,58 average dmg per hit with glancing blows


c) b. sword (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda..._Bastard_Sword)
45,65 -> 16-18/x3 & 19-20/x4

2-15 -> 14 x 45,65 = 639,1
16-18 -> 3 x 136,95 = 410,85
19-20 -> 2 x 182,6 = 365,2
= 1415,15 /20 = 70,75 average damage per hit
+(60% of 45,65) x 15 = 410,85
410,85 + 1415,15 = 1826 /20 = 91,3 average dmg per hit with glancing blows



d) khopesh (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda..._Steel_Khopesh)
43,8 -> 16-18/x4 & 19-20/x5

2-15 -> 14 x 43,8 = 613,2
16-18 -> 3 x 175,2 = 525,6
19-20 -> 2 x 219 = 438
= 1576,8 /20 = 78,84 average damage per hit


e) heavy pick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda...eel_Heavy_Pick)
36,23 -> 18/x5 & 19-20/x6

2-17 -> 16 x 45,65 = 579,68
18 -> 1 x 181,15 = 181,15
19-20 -> 2 x 217,38 = 434,76
= 1195,59 /20 = 59,70 average damage per hit


f) scimitar/rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legenda...Steel_Scimitar)
36,23 -> 14-18/x3 & 19-20/x4

2-13 -> 12 x 36,23 = 434,76
14-18 -> 5 x 108,69 = 543,45
19-20 -> 2 x 144,92 = 289,84
= 1268,05 /20 = 63,40 average damage per hit


I did not even bother testing on a Longsword or a Warhammer with Pulverizer, because a Khopesh will always beat them. Without bonuses to crit. multiplier:
Khopesh = 43,8 -> 16-20/x3
Longsword = 40,15 -> 16-20/x2
Warhammer = 40,15 -> 17-20/x3 (with Pulverizer)

So according to the results, the Khopesh is the winner if you do not invest in Glancing Blows (THF feats).
*In this case tho, if you are in Legendary Dreadgnought and using Headman's Chop, then the dwarven axe might be better. I could not figure out how to calculate this, because one has to consider the Shield Bash chance (should be around 70%) and within it the Shield's Critical Threat Range.
If someone could figure this out that would be mostly appreciated.

[Phil7]

*A shield can not proc a secondary shield bash more than once per second.
*A secondary shield bash rolls a separate dice from your main hand weapon when attacking. If your main hand weapon misses, that does not mean that your shield will also miss.
*Doublestrike does not affect Secondary (passive) shield bashing. Your shield can not doublestrike

*Critical values:
Holy Sword does not apply to shields
Keen Edge ???
Strike With No Thought ???
Celestial Champion does not apply to shields
Pulverizer does not apply to shields
Devastating Critical tested and applies normally
Headman's Chop tested and applies normally
Overwhelming Critical tested applies normally

[Phil7]

going to compare some popular one-handed heroic weapons.

Glancing Blow damage is considered to be at 50%.
The weapon effects are also calculated.
Critical values were the same, but this time without Overwhelming Critical.
Augment slots are considered empty.


Twinblade
20,35 -> 16-20/x3

2-15 = 14x20,35 = 284,9
16-20 = 5x61,05 = 305,25
+ 15x10,17 = 152,62 (glancing blows at 50% weapon damage)
+ 19x7 = 133 (anarchic/axiomatic)
= 875,77 /20 = 43,78 average dmg per hit with glancing blows


Sever
19,20 -> 18-20/x4

2-17 = 16x19,20 = 307,2
18-20 = 3x76,8 = 230,4
+15x9,6 = 144 (glancing blows at 50% weapon damage)
= 681,6 /20 = 34,08 average dmg per hit with glancing blows


Deathnip
14,50 -> 16-20/x5

2-15 = 14x14,5 = 203
16-20 = 5x72,5 = 362,5
+ 5x50 = 250 (seeker +10)
+ 5x49,5 = 247,5 (Heartseeker IV)
= 1063 /20 = 53,15 average dmg per hit


Spinal Tap
13,20 -> 16-20/x4

2-15 = 14x13,20 = 184,8
16-20 = 5x52,8 = 264
+ 15x6,6 = 99 (glancing blows at 50% weapon damage)
+ 19x9 = 171 (Hemorrhaging)
= 718,8 /20 = 35,94 average dmg per hit with glancing blows


Bleeding edge
13,80 -> 16-20/x4

2-15 = 14x13,8 = 193,2
16-20 = 5x55,2 = 276
+ 5x38,5 = 192,5 (Bloodletter III)
= 661,7 /20 = 33,08 average dmg per hit


Allegiance
16,80 -> 16-20/x4

2-15 = 14x16,8 = 235,2
16-20 = 5x67,2 = 336
= 571,2 /20 = 28,56 average dmg per hit


Axe of Adaxus (Heroic Elite)
18,40 -> 18-20/x5

2-17 = 16x18,40 = 294,4
18-20 = 3x92 = 276
= 570,4 /20 = 28,52 average dmg per hit


Greensteel Khopesh (Lit II)
13,80 -> 16-20/x4

2-15 = 14x13,8 = 193,2
16-20 = 5x55,2 = 276
+19x7 = 133 (Holy)
+(19x3,5) + (5x16,5) = 149 (Shocking Burst)
+(5x44) + (1x21) = 241 (Shocking Blast)
= 992,2 /20 = 49,61 + 9.15 per hit (Lightning Strike) [http://ddowiki.com/page/Lightning_Strike] = 58,76 average dmg per hit

[Phil7]

I want to shed some light on two great Epic weapons aswell.

Again the weapon effects are calculated.
Glancing Blow damage is considered to be at 60%.
Critical values are the same as in the 1st post.
Augment slots are considered empty.


Epic Spinal Tap
41,40 -> 16-18/x4 & 19-20/x5

2-15 -> 14 x 41,40 = 579,6
16-18 -> 3 x 165,6 = 496,8
19-20 -> 2 x 207 = 414
+19x24 = 456 (Greater Bleeding)
= 1946 /20 =97,3 average damage per hit
+(60% of 41,40) x 15 = 372,6
372,6 + 1946 = 2318,6 /20 = 115,93 average dmg per hit with glancing blows



Epic Bleeding Edge
41,40 -> 16-18/x4 & 19-20/x5

2-15 -> 14 x 41,40 = 579,6
16-18 -> 3 x 165,6 = 496,8
19-20 -> 2 x 207 = 414
+5x82,5 = 412,5
= 1905,9 /20 = 95,29 average damage per hit



Better than the results in the 1st post, but keep in mind that I did not add any weapon effects to the legendary gs weapons in the 1st post.
I am still not sure what is the best dps crafting option for the new legendary gs weapons, but I did hear that Lit II is not that great.

[cru121]

nice math exercise, but:
do you realize that math changes depending on your damage bonus? (damage from high strength, enhancements, deadly items,...)
if you add let's say +50 damage to each hit (and additional seeker damage to crit), you'll find out that weapons with higher crit threat/multiplier perform a lot better.

[gwonbush]

Strike With No Thought DOES increase the critical multiplier of your shield (have not tested if it stacks with the level 18 Vanguard core). While I have not tested it, I would presume Keen Edge does not improve crit range as the shield is not a focus weapon.

[Phil7]

nice math exercise, but:
do you realize that math changes depending on your damage bonus? (damage from high strength, enhancements, deadly items,...)
if you add let's say +50 damage to each hit (and additional seeker damage to crit), you'll find out that weapons with higher crit threat/multiplier perform a lot better.

yep I know
The problem with damage bonuses is that they are different for each character. The possible combinations are limitless. Even a mere Monk past life that adds +1 damage can change the outcome of my calculations. Imagine a simple Deadly +6 item at level 15. That might potentially make a Deathnip better than a Lit II GS Khopesh.
I'm not going to delve so deep into that matter, but I did at least manage to list the basic damage of various weapons. It shows which weapons have a head-start and which weapons are weaker in the beginning. If someone wants to find out the best choice for his gear/past life/etc. setup, he has a platform here to begin with.

[BigErkyKid]

You forgot one of the most important things: double strike.

Nowadays shield builds are amongst the highest DBs builds. The problem with glancing weapons is that DBs do NOT trigger GBs. For that reason, single target DPS is higher on the khopesh. I agree that you gain some AOE damage on a THF weapon (dwarxe, etc), but IMHO it is not worth the trouble.

[Phil7]

Yes indeed and unfortunately doublestrike also doesn't affect shield bashes. On a paladin I would definetly use a khopesh, but on a fighter with so many feats... why not. If indeed the dps with glancing blows is higher than that of a Khopesh, then I would definetly give it a try.
It's a shame that so many things are broken or intentionally don't work with shields. All those crit threat/multipliers, enhancements, game mechanics and crafting systems that exclude shields. It might be intentional tho, in order to balance the vanguard's survivability and dps.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes indeed and unfortunately doublestrike also doesn't affect shield bashes. On a paladin I would definetly use a khopesh, but on a fighter with so many feats... why not. If indeed the dps with glancing blows is higher than that of a Khopesh, then I would definetly give it a try.
It's a shame that so many things are broken or intentionally don't work with shields. All those crit threat/multipliers, enhancements, game mechanics and crafting systems that exclude shields. It might be intentional tho, in order to balance the vanguard's survivability and dps.

I don't think the vanguard is that great in DPS, and certainly the survivability is not that much higher than say a THF paladin.

A THF paladin has access to more hamp, for example, and can get way higher dodge than a shielder. Remember that the shield adds "only" 45 PRR and the MRR bit.

In DDO more often than not some more DPS ends up meaning better defenses because a dead mob is not hitting you. This applies very much to THF vs S&B. I remember trying to solo on a pure fighter Demon Assault around when it came out. I did WAY better on my THF than on a shield build. And I had way better S&B equipment (best shield, khopesh, etc.) than THF equipment.

Finally, a shield build pigeonholes you into taking 41-44 APs in vanguard and hence allows for a lot less flexibility. I am disappointed, but this seems to be the state of things and the devs seem to believe that nerfs were needed against S&B (as you mention, stuff not applying to shields).

[Kebtid]

Yes indeed and unfortunately doublestrike also doesn't affect shield bashes. On a paladin I would definetly use a khopesh, but on a fighter with so many feats... why not. If indeed the dps with glancing blows is higher than that of a Khopesh, then I would definetly give it a try.
It's a shame that so many things are broken or intentionally don't work with shields. All those crit threat/multipliers, enhancements, game mechanics and crafting systems that exclude shields. It might be intentional tho, in order to balance the vanguard's survivability and dps.

Welcome to my world.
My favorite class is monk and unarmed combat.


Now imagine how it feels to get nothing fixed and everything in the game broken intentionally for your playstyle because its "hard to fix it".
Word of advice, you get used to it over the years and just play the most meta build atm.

[Phil7]

Going to finally TR out off Vanguard and into TWF.
It was a fun and strong build and with it I saw the highest non-fury crits ever with a melee build
14k crit in LH shroud, no Good Death, just normal auto attack. Can go higher than that.
Maybe only a barbarian with greataxe could crit higher than the Fighter Vanguard without fury.

Anyway, I propably won't be coming back to Vanguard for a long time and it's sad, but it's also not worth it. He just loses so much in comparison to other builds.
I also want to thank Erkid and everyone else who adviced me against it, you were right from the begining, but I am a stubborn kid

Shields are just left behind in this game and I will not bother anymore. Only in case I have to tank some raid bosses

Going to IR to TWF Fighter and get more dps and better defenses (it's sad I know... shield=less survivability)
*No more dodge cap at 2%
*No more stupid restrictions to my off-hand attacks (no doublestrike and once per second bashes)
*No more wasted 41 APs for something that gives me LESS dps than a TWF/THF Kensei build
*No more enhancements and Destinies that don't work with Shields

*Now with MORE hamp, more STR, more CON and +20% HP (Stalwart Defender), more action boosts and higher tactical feat DCs, more dps and a LGS Vacuum and LGS Affirmation at the same time!
*Now with LESS buttons to click while fighting!

Also during my past lives I tested B. swords, D. axes and Khopeshes on my S&B builds.
Erkid was right again, Khopeshes are the best. Do not even bother with the rest.
You will lose 4 feats (THF chain) and the glancing blow damage is not even noticable. It was something like 50 damage per swing and it had zero impact in LE quests and for AoE purposes. Just forget it

D.axe with Headman's Chop might be on par with Khopesh, but I don't care anymore.
Bastard Sword is a waste of feat and dps

Basicaly the only advantages of the shield were:
the +45/51 (Shield Smash) prr and abit of MRR
the Stunning Shield
the extra 20ish AC
??? (something I propably missed)

and Shield Champion? Don't need it! Use Balanced Attacks, they make the mobs helpless too!

Anyway that's it for me, it was a good flavor build and fun for seeing high crit numbers. Time to move on to something faster and stronger for my Reincarnations.