Cannith Crafting Discussion

[Ballyspringer]

I just don't understand the opposition to crafting being just as good as random gen - I get the whole "well you can get the exact item you want compared to having to get lucky in a chest" but isn't that the entire point of crafting? For those who think that due to that it should be lesser gear than random gen I would only agree if crafting was something everyone from day 1 can do at the highest levels possible, which is far from the case as has been shown here multiple times (and the guy who says 8 hours I'm not going to get into that as I'm sorry that's just absurd and not considering the time getting the mats and crafting lag). Crafting is a relatively small population overall in what I've seen even when it was the best stuff, and most likely will remain just that unless you could get things with higher powers and abilities than random, which will never happen.

And as long as random has the same possibilities as crafting, no one will ever have to craft because they can still use random gen and hunt for that perfect item.

As others have said, right now I agree almost alll of random loot - even the new stuff, is absolutely useless really once you find a couple good items for each ML level. For example generic +8 stat ML 15-17 gear one with invigoration, and one with deathblock - and you're done for 95% of your toons/builds until low lvl epics since none of it is bound. And from there out all random gen loot in those levels is worthless again completely for each of your TR's and alts. It's the same thing at whatever ML you want to discuss just with different numbers. As soon as you have your ML 1 gear, ML 4 gear, ML 9 gear, ML 15 gear, and so on and so forth 99% of random is worthless even if you've never used crafting at all. before the new random loot that wasn't the case because there was enough BTC named items that were the most powerful at level so you would work around those items for different builds - but the new random is so much better than that old named loot in almost every case that is how it is right now. It's not theory crafting or trying to hype doom or what-if's - this is the current reality it's become here's your generic new random loot that works for every toon, caster to melee to specialist.

That being said whether we have crafting or not 99% of random loot will always be vendor trash - and 99% is being generous as to me it's closer to 99.99% (and I have 13 toons with I believe 8 or 9 of those currently at lvl 30 or close to it so I'm not a here's my one toon fully decked out player).

[JOTMON]

I have to agree here.
If CC is as good as (not even better than) RGL then RGL is 100% worthless, because it takes less time to level CC than to get a "stars aligned item." I like that they are requiring marks of cannith for 3rd effects, those are not too hard to get through favor, but it takes something.
Perhaps a MEGA-rare (like HoW rare) drop that allowed crafting an item at RGL level would be cool. But from easily obtained items CC needs to be weaker than "lucky" RGL.

Its a 'fail' comparison, random is random (it could drop on your first run, or never..),
Cannith crafting levels is a time sink, getting a stars aligned item is just luck and repetitions of content level you are trying to get the item for or the AH/ASAH to buy from someone else..
While I agree Stars aligned RGL should be better, Cannith crafting should be able to make any(non-stars aligned) comparable 2 levels higher.. with a master craftsman being able to bring it down to even(for themselves).

I hate that they would even consider making the 3rd effect craftable - at all -
The 3rd effect should be innately part of the original item and stay affixed to the original item when cleansed, like augment slots or special metal traits...
Instead of grinding and trading for these 3rd effects and crafting around them they are opening up Pandora's box..This is what I believe will tip the scales of balance between RGL and Crafting.


We don't need more MEGA-rare BS ingredients that have nothing to do with the item, we need a smart intuitive crafting system that skates the balance of desirability vs effort.
I don't want to have to farm mystical Halfling farts in a special jar that only drop after saving Coyle from a rare spawn Red named Beholder on a full moon when Eberron is conterminous with the Shire.
Even utilizing named items(assuming they are not the ones with super screwed over drop rates) that have the traits desired would be better than more new random bs ingredients..
How much lag is associated to stockpiling code associated to the ever growing pile of useless ingredients.. we need more generic ingredients.. use mysterious remnants, or existing unutilized collectibles and ingredients..


I would rather see high level ingredients give fragments of intended crafting.. vorpal deconstructs into vorpal shards which are then combined with something to make the various vorpal prefix shards...
...want to craft vorpal.. for starters you need to deconstruct 100 vorpal weapons to get the fragments..
generic basic ingredients are fine for generic basic low level crafting, but higher level crafting and specialized effects should be more restrictive and relevant..


Logistically the current crafting system is poorly designed and open to exploitation..
I hit 150 across the board on crafting levels and I am now done with crafting and able to make whatever I want from here on in with no more investment.
While I was doing this I saw other groups of players pool resources to a packmule alt toon that was a shared crafter for an entire guild..
there was even those using macro's to afk autocraft.. and I don't blame the macro users.. the slow one off deconstruction is total bs.. the interface needs to be much faster and easier to use..
The interface needs to be more like a vendor interface grab a stack of items dump them in and mass decosntruct (as opposed to sell all).
While they are at it.. fix the [redacted for language] stone of change interface, that stupid thing should crunch as fast as I can click the button and take full stacks of whatever I put in there.. not 10 at a[redacted for language] time/6 seconds.


Crafting needs to be more dynamic, like using XP as a component of crafting (like PnP).. then you need to XP to be able to craft those sweet item you want.. want to be a seller of crafting.. well you need to build XP as well...
This also discourages the pooled crafter and the alt box crafter since they need to be generating xp as well. then all they need to do is ..give us more options to get bta xp stones... or an account based crafting sphere...

Would also like to see Master Craftsman trees.. Something like a Mastersmith of Jewellery crafting.. your overall crafting is superior, but your jewellery work is renowned.. Its as if you have infused a part of your self into the work
every Piece of jewellery you craft is imbued with masterful/wonderous due to your exceptional focus and skill.
You may have even unlocked the ability to apply quality bonuses by imbuing some special ingredients (commendations, tokens, remnants, whatevers,.. along with sacrifice of crafting XP into your work.
.. variations for armor, clothing, weapons, etc... selecting 1 specialized tree locks out the others.
Lets players make some great items that could be sold/traded and limits the market flood due to the required farm for crafting xp and special ingredients...

[dunklezhan]

...using XP as a component of crafting (like PnP)...

I agree with just about everything you said, and I really don't want to derail, but this was the exact thing that made me skip 3rd ed pnp entirely (DDO is how I ultimately really learned the basics of the 3rd ed system, prior to picking up Pathfinder).

The entire concept of spending XP to make items is just anathema to me, you don't lose experience for doing difficult things, you gain it. That's the whole point of experience. It works in Shadowrun with Karma because you spend it for everything, there are no levels. But in DnD that kind of mechanic is just clunky and conceptually nonsensical. To me! Obviously not to you.

But other than that, as I say, I see where you're coming from.

[Faltout]

(and the guy who says 8 hours I'm not going to get into that as I'm sorry that's just absurd and not considering the time getting the mats and crafting lag).

8 hours SPLIT IN 16 PARTS OF 30 MINUTES OVER SEVERAL YEARS.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I only said that the time I spent crafting was 8 hours for level 140. I never said I reached that WITHIN 8 hours. And the data I have provided about how many shards equal a level and how many resources does each shard cost and how many time does it take to make it supports my claim.

Crafting is a relatively small population overall in what I've seen even when it was the best stuff, and most likely will remain just that unless you could get things with higher powers and abilities than random, which will never happen.

How do you know how small the population is? Every serious player I've met has a character that has high levels in crafting to equip their toons.
And just give crafting that much power and you'll see tons of people suddenly making it to top levels. Why now compared to when crafting arrived? Because by now every player has had the chance to max crafting. What else can you do if you play for years and gather those essences in your bags? If each life you get 400 essences of each and that's enough for 10 crafting levels, why not reach level 140 after 14 lives?

And as long as random has the same possibilities as crafting, no one will ever have to craft because they can still use random gen and hunt for that perfect item.

Good luck finding that perfect item when you could simply craft it by spending less time.

For example generic +8 stat ML 15-17 gear one with invigoration, and one with deathblock - and you're done for 95% of your toons/builds until low lvl epics since none of it is bound.

Oh, so you wouldn't be interested in +8 stat at ML17 with deathblock AND +4 insightful stat on the item AND an augment slot to go with it?
All because of crafting?

That being said whether we have crafting or not 99% of random loot will always be vendor trash - and 99% is being generous as to me it's closer to 99.99% (and I have 13 toons with I believe 8 or 9 of those currently at lvl 30 or close to it so I'm not a here's my one toon fully decked out player).

99.99% sounds pretty good odds considering it's 1 item in 10,000. I get a very large number of random items every day.

[Ballyspringer]

8 hours SPLIT IN 16 PARTS OF 30 MINUTES OVER SEVERAL YEARS.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I only said that the time I spent crafting was 8 hours for level 140. I never said I reached that WITHIN 8 hours. And the data I have provided about how many shards equal a level and how many resources does each shard cost and how many time does it take to make it supports my claim.

Ok I know I said I was going to stop responding to you but you got me with this I lied - glad to know we're on the same page that it takes a hell of a lot of time to get to the current top levels of crafting, which proves the point I was making.

How do you know how small the population is? Every serious player I've met has a character that has high levels in crafting to equip their toons.
And just give crafting that much power and you'll see tons of people suddenly making it to top levels. Why now compared to when crafting arrived? Because by now every player has had the chance to max crafting. What else can you do if you play for years and gather those essences in your bags? If each life you get 400 essences of each and that's enough for 10 crafting levels, why not reach level 140 after 14 lives?

When crafting first arrived not everyone rushed out to do it even though it was top tier items which is how I know that, my guild alone of at the time only had a handful of top crafters (myself being one of them), and most other people I spoke to who were guild leaders said the same thing, so that is based on experience - although ultimately only DDO would have the numbers to prove it either way, but from everything I saw talking to top raiding guilds at the time most serious players who were on daily raiding with top end stuff were not high level crafters.

As for the second part of "just give crafting that much power" it was the top power when it came out and that is my experience as a guild leader at the time working with other guild leaders full of "serious" daily players and what they said.

As for now they have the mats and time - a lot of people never wanted to bother with it, and if you weren't going to be doing crafting years ago, I seriously doubt they have been hoarding mats to do something they didn't want to do for this entire time...that just makes no sense. But if someone has spent all that time and TR'ing to accumulate the stuff to be a top crafter, they should be rewarded for that investment of time.

Good luck finding that perfect item when you could simply craft it by spending less time.

See the first point here - it's not less time overall, it's an investment of time and resources up front after you've spent enough time and gotten enough resources to max crafting - instead of just always as you go with no investment up front. As for "spending less time" see the first point here yet again - that's AFTER spending "years" as you said of getting mats and experience to be a top crafter. So that's not at all spending less time as it seems you keep forgetting to include the time it takes to become a top crafter which is the main point of that.

Oh, so you wouldn't be interested in +8 stat at ML17 with deathblock AND +4 insightful stat on the item AND an augment slot to go with it?
All because of crafting?

That has to be one of the most irrelevant statements I've seen on here - what I'm saying is currently once you get a top item like that you're done hunting for all of your toons from here out, which is the same as if you had crafted it. With the sheer number of toons I have (and I know others have a lot more) you'll get that perfect or almost perfect item sooner or later either way which will cause that. If I chose to spend time and materials crafting to make the item or I find it random gen that's irrelevant. And yes also in heroic levels I'm sorry it's become so easy even with toons without using twinked gear and using stuff from past lives to me if something was 1 or 2 points higher of con or int it really doesn't matter to me at all as it doesn't make a big difference with the already inflated items and abilities. The only time that extra point or two matters is at the top levels which I know is purely my opinion.

Hell for an example (granted using a named item, one of the few that is still relevant) I still use Carnifex for all of my toons, whether they are pure wizards or barbarians until they hit lvl 10 because it's great - so the example part is it doesn't' matter what weapons I pull/get generated prior to level 10 as I'm not picking them up from the chest because I already have that slot taken care of for all of my toons every life (unless I'm picking them up to decon to get materials for crafting - which in this case crafting is making that random loot more valuable than if there was no crafting).


While I'm posting (sorry for the wall of text) I like your ideas JOTMON, except using XP to do it - to me the cost of the shards is that cost stopping just a mass spam of items with no recourse, although yes I do admit it's not a perfect system as it currently is.

[Uska]

8 hours SPLIT IN 16 PARTS OF 30 MINUTES OVER SEVERAL YEARS.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I only said that the time I spent crafting was 8 hours for level 140. I never said I reached that WITHIN 8 hours. And the data I have provided about how many shards equal a level and how many resources does each shard cost and how many time does it take to make it supports my claim.

How do you know how small the population is? Every serious player I've met has a character that has high levels in crafting to equip their toons.
And just give crafting that much power and you'll see tons of people suddenly making it to top levels. Why now compared to when crafting arrived? Because by now every player has had the chance to max crafting. What else can you do if you play for years and gather those essences in your bags? If each life you get 400 essences of each and that's enough for 10 crafting levels, why not reach level 140 after 14 lives?


Good luck finding that perfect item when you could simply craft it by spending less time.


Oh, so you wouldn't be interested in +8 stat at ML17 with deathblock AND +4 insightful stat on the item AND an augment slot to go with it?
All because of crafting?


99.99% sounds pretty good odds considering it's 1 item in 10,000. I get a very large number of random items every day.

I would count myself as a pretty serious player and I think my highest crafting is around 50 and I will NEVER USE IT OR TAKE IT HIGHER its mind numbingly boring and if it became required I would quit for sure and I have been here longer than most any.

[tpbtoc]

#4 Stupid .1% - Items with effects that don't make sense.
example: Armor with repair amplification.

To be fair an non-robot Artificer using Construct Essence could benefit from this

[Ballyspringer]

To be fair an non-robot Artificer using Construct Essence could benefit from this

Win

[RD2play]

When crafting first arrived not everyone rushed out to do it even though it was top tier items which is how I know that, my guild alone of at the time only had a handful of top crafters (myself being one of them), and most other people I spoke to who were guild leaders said the same thing, so that is based on experience - although ultimately only DDO would have the numbers to prove it either way, but from everything I saw talking to top raiding guilds at the time most serious players who were on daily raiding with top end stuff were not high level crafters.

As for the second part of "just give crafting that much power" it was the top power when it came out and that is my experience as a guild leader at the time working with other guild leaders full of "serious" daily players and what they said.

As for now they have the mats and time - a lot of people never wanted to bother with it, and if you weren't going to be doing crafting years ago, I seriously doubt they have been hoarding mats to do something they didn't want to do for this entire time...that just makes no sense. But if someone has spent all that time and TR'ing to accumulate the stuff to be a top crafter, they should be rewarded for that investment of time.

So because you did not jump on the bandwagon when it came out you now have to get it handed to you for free?

Also crafting was never Top Power even when it came out, it capped just below top power, i.e. +6 stat where SSS had +7, and only +13 skill where +15 could be found in RGL. And then RGL had effects not in crafting at the time. You need to consider the new RGL when looking at what the new CCrafting should bring.

The only thing where Cannith crafting really shone was the ability to tailor items to your needs, to fill the slots that where left after your Raid + Named gear. Or to make good twink gear for TR projects. I used it to clean out my bank chars who where holding on to stuff I might need from the RGL back then, as soon as I reached the level to be able to create the effects I could sell/break all that backlog of items.

I agree with NoWorries that all loot should have its place on the power curve. Current/new RGL has a wide spectrum due to MC and higher than earlier values for effects. It is acceptable that you are not allowed to make a triple MC item with a slot as the chance of pulling such an item from RGL is also nigh existent. CCrafting will allow for tailored items, RGL will allow for Max Value through MC. On top the new RGL has brought a lot of PC and you are asking to get even more?

Then for mats, they are so abundant atm that anyone who wishes to level their crafting could do so easily and at a much lower cost then when it first came out. they dont have to have been hoarding mats for themselves, they are readily available on the AH or by asking around on the trade channel.

See the first point here - it's not less time overall, it's an investment of time and resources up front after you've spent enough time and gotten enough resources to max crafting - instead of just always as you go with no investment up front. As for "spending less time" see the first point here yet again - that's AFTER spending "years" as you said of getting mats and experience to be a top crafter. So that's not at all spending less time as it seems you keep forgetting to include the time it takes to become a top crafter which is the main point of that.

This game does not revolve around crafting, ergo crafting should never get you top tier gear. It is about questing/raiding so that is where the top tier gear should come from. Cannith Crafting should be as it is proposed be, a means to acquire stop-gap items to fuel your lower level guys, or slots till you pull that Raid/Named/perfect MC RGL item. Other crafting systems like LGS are where you can and should go to find those top tier items.

Lets not go back to a place where having top crafting levels invalidates any RGL you pull, which in its own right has invalidated so much older Named items already.

[Ebondevil]

I agree with NoWorries that all loot should have its place on the power curve. Current/new RGL has a wide spectrum due to MC and higher than earlier values for effects.

Power curve for Items should be in my opinion
Random Loot / Crafted Items
Named Loot
Raid Loot

In that order, with total overlap between Crafted loot and Random loot, skilled crafters should be able to craft the best random loot has to offer, especially if the materials used include a Random MC item that's been primed for Crafting, unskilled crafters or those not interested in it should be able to get the best gear from Random loot.

Would make Random loot a hell of a lot more interesting and worthwhile as every M Item then becomes valuable for crafters and saught after as loot.

This game does not revolve around crafting, ergo crafting should never get you top tier gear. It is about questing/raiding so that is where the top tier gear should come from. Cannith Crafting should be as it is proposed be, a means to acquire stop-gap items to fuel your lower level guys, or slots till you pull that Raid/Named/perfect MC RGL item. Other crafting systems like LGS are where you can and should go to find those top tier items.

Top tier loot is raid loot and I don't think anyone is asking for Cannith Crafting to compete with that.

Lets not go back to a place where having top crafting levels invalidates any RGL you pull, which in its own right has invalidated so much older Named items already.

Disagree, someone who has put effort into crafting shouldn't have to worry about the 0.001% of good items that drops, Instead they should be looking for MC items, Items with Augment slots, etc. Then the devs can go back and fix those names items that have been invalidated by Random loot. Win Win Win!

I'd be perfectly happy if all crafted loot became Bound To Account as well, leaving Good Random loot viable for selling.

[RD2play]

Power curve for Items should be in my opinion
Random Loot / Crafted Items
Raid Loot

In that order, with total overlap between Crafted loot and Random loot, skilled crafters should be able to craft the best random loot has to offer, especially if the materials used include a Random MC item that's been primed for Crafting, unskilled crafters or those not interested in it should be able to get the best gear from Random loot.

Would make Random loot a hell of a lot more interesting and worthwhile as every M Item then becomes valuable for crafters and saught after as loot.

I have suggested just such a system, where you could "overwrite" effects on RGL with crafting so you could make use out of MC items that have 2 other non-interesting effects, and it was shot down so that is not going to happen. MC will now only be something you can only find in RGL which after thinking about it I can agree on, since that is what the devs have in mind to keep RLG relevant next to CCrafted gear. You can still make Items with "normal max power", 3 effects and a slot, tailored to your needs. I rather help them to make what they offer to become useful then to keep going on about something that is not in the cards. Triple MC effect items would be too much if looking at what you can get out of RGL. So I believe we are getting the best middle ground with NoWorries proposal.

Top tier loot is raid loot and I don't think anyone is asking for Cannith Crafting to compete with that.

well some people do seem to want exactly this, I agree with you that Raid loot, and some rare Named loot should be the top tier items.

Disagree, someone who has put effort into crafting shouldn't have to worry about the 0.001% of good items that drops, Instead they should be looking for MC items, Items with Augment slots, etc. Then the devs can go back and fix those names items that have been invalidated by Random loot. Win Win Win!

Well what can I say, this is a design decision made by the devs. They want RGL to still have meaning even for top level crafters thus MC will only be found there. We might not like it but it is a valid decision, although IMO it will not work out that way, since I'dd rather have those 3 effects I want, than to carry an item that has a MC value but 2 other effects I am not looking for. I wil take a look at MC items tho for that one item that has those 3 effects I want on a single item, of which one is of MC value.
Crafters will still be looking for Augment slots, and materials for weapons (or a combination) as like in the old system they will remain on an item after disjunction.

I'd be perfectly happy if all crafted loot became Bound To Account as well, leaving Good Random loot viable for selling.

[/quote]
I agree Crafted items should be BTA rather than BTC, especially when looking at the other discussion about BTC induced lag to the system.

[Ballyspringer]

So because you did not jump on the bandwagon when it came out you now have to get it handed to you for free?

not sure where you are getting that impression, I did spend countless hours crafting and getting my levels up - I was one of the few in my guild who did. I would never want something for free as that's not fun to me, I need the carrot at the end of the stick.

Also crafting was never Top Power even when it came out, it capped just below top power, i.e. +6 stat where SSS had +7, and only +13 skill where +15 could be found in RGL. And then RGL had effects not in crafting at the time. You need to consider the new RGL when looking at what the new CCrafting should bring.

My earlier posts I clarified this - I think raid should be best loot out there, named should be 2nd best, and then random gen and crafting are equal with eachother but 3rd best. I hate that right now random is better than raid or named in almost every case and this should be fixed. So when I say top power I meant along with random gen.

The only thing where Cannith crafting really shone was the ability to tailor items to your needs, to fill the slots that where left after your Raid + Named gear. Or to make good twink gear for TR projects. I used it to clean out my bank chars who where holding on to stuff I might need from the RGL back then, as soon as I reached the level to be able to create the effects I could sell/break all that backlog of items.

yes I agree here, again raid and named should be top dogs in loot

Then for mats, they are so abundant atm that anyone who wishes to level their crafting could do so easily and at a much lower cost then when it first came out. they dont have to have been hoarding mats for themselves, they are readily available on the AH or by asking around on the trade channel.

This would change fast once the new system comes out. would there be an initial rush and abundance, yes - but I'm thinking long term instead of the first month or three once the initial stockpiles are gone. And lets be honest DDO created those stockpiles people have now and that entire issue because they didn't keep crafting up with the current random loot or epic levels. If they had there wouldn't be the issue of that now. But again this is a short term problem for a permanent system.

This game does not revolve around crafting, ergo crafting should never get you top tier gear. It is about questing/raiding so that is where the top tier gear should come from. Cannith Crafting should be as it is proposed be, a means to acquire stop-gap items to fuel your lower level guys, or slots till you pull that Raid/Named/perfect MC RGL item. Other crafting systems like LGS are where you can and should go to find those top tier items.

Lets not go back to a place where having top crafting levels invalidates any RGL you pull, which in its own right has invalidated so much older Named items already.

I still dont understand the whole "invalidates RGL" thing, if RGL has the same power as crafting, both are viable alongside each other, and RGL will always be more so for value as the best random can be traded and sold as not everyone will be crafting, and yes I think the top crafting should remain bound and not able to be unbound.

Just because devs have not ensured that random loot and power creep does not invalidate named and raid loot does not mean we should cap crafting, named and raid loot should be brought back above random loot as it always should have been (and as I said in an earlier post it should be ML dependent, so ML 20 raid loot is better than ML 20 random, but not as good as say ML 25 or 30 random - although raid and named should be able to have abilities not found in random or crafted loot)

I would love to go back to the days of the 20 cap and before crazy power creep that happened with eveningstar and everything after that - and I hope they cap current numbers where they are for future updates, but they already let that genie out of the bottle so lets have them bring everything in line with the new monstrosity of RGL they created.

[Hilltrot]

Power curve for Items should be in my opinion
Random Loot / Crafted Items
Named loot
Raid Loot
Top tier loot is raid loot and I don't think anyone is asking for Cannith Crafting to compete with that.

Agree but would like to add named loot above Crafted Loot.

[Ebondevil]

Agree but would like to add named loot above Crafted Loot.

Yes I would agree, but I forgot it when making that post. Will go back and edit for clarity, thank you!

[Xionanx]

Its my opinion that all the disparate crafting systems need to combined into one unified crafting system. (GS, LGS, TF, DC, CC, SoS, etc) All of them should work the same and use the same rules. The "power" of each does not justify the ridiculous mess that is the crafting systems in DDO.

[Hilltrot]

Its my opinion that all the disparate crafting systems need to combined into one unified crafting system. (GS, LGS, TF, DC, CC, SoS, etc) All of them should work the same and use the same rules. The "power" of each does not justify the ridiculous mess that is the crafting systems in DDO.

Complications are what DDO is about. Unless the complications cause crashes, I would say keep it as it is. If it does cause crashes. I would say drop it.

That being said, Cannith crafting is the only true crafting in the game. Your materials come from throughout the game. The items you make can be kept or sold.

The other crafting is not really crafting. It's adventure/raid loot. It is a way to limit the speed at which players get their loot. It has a RND as well as some grinding to prevent people from getting lucky and grabbin' their loot on the first try. It's a way to ensure people run an adventure/raid multiple times.

[Hilltrot]

It may be late to get into this discussion. You guys can argue about the how this is done...why do we don't have this or that in crafting...and what is the future of cannith crafting? But I have to ask: WHATS SO FUN ABOUT STANDING IN FRONT OF A CRAFTING DEVICE CLICKING AWAY?

I say abandon ALL such crafting as it is wasting valuable programmer time and effort!

And since I know any rants here fall upon deaf ears, for everyone who is crafting...I know you simply want a system to circumvent random loot gen. I'm not sure it matters in the grand scheme of things but I would rather the programmers utilize their time doing other work.

The Bytcher~

Crafting is not just sitting in front of a crafting device clicking away. It's figuring out what combinations would be best. Much like people try to figure out the best build for their character. In fact more time is spent on character creation on these forums than anything else. If you don't find these complications enjoyable, might I suggest WoW? They've spent tons of time making sure their system is simplified. You don't even have to figure out what equipment to wear. That's right! They've already figured out your equipment already!

DDO is really a niche MMO. Cannith crafting is in desparate need of an overhaul. It has only had very minor modifications since Update NINE! Yep, back when everyone ran around naked to all adventures, including raids. Warforged still were completely immune to poison and disease. invisible zerging was the norm - not the exception. Raid alerts didn't exist. No MRR or PRR. Epic didn't exist. Level 20 didn't exist. I could go on.

Yes, the developers spent quite some time fixing other things. But it's time to bring crafting into the epics.

[Gisleres]

TL;DR: three schools, please.

I feel like the both the crafting system and the random loot system are being dumbed down. Previously an item's powers added up to determine its ML, now each power is considered in isolation. This removes an important component of decision-making: at my level, do I want Dexterous +6 boots of Dodge +2 or Dexterous +4 boots of Dodge +4? This balance applied to both crafting and random loot, offering interesting tradeoffs.
Now it'll be something like Dexterous +5 belt of Dodge +5, no way to go above +5 and no reason to go below, at my level. No tradeoffs constrain or empower me -- only ML and crafting level. The only way I'll get a +6 is with a "stars-align" random item, but then I'll know that it's better than anything I have -- again, no tradeoffs, only luck.
I like the immersion and hard choices of the old system. Yes, it's complex, but I enjoy tinkering. Why else are we playing this game -- for the satisfaction of making generic monsters fall over and die on our screens?

[Forum] Everybody: If you like complexity so much, go play EVE Online.
[Forum] Gisleres: Shut up. Did, loved it, still bitter about gender balance.

Anyway, if you want to retain some tradeoff capability while keeping things simple, perhaps add an alternate version to the various power shards (call it "plenary" or something) -- it is a little more powerful than the ordinary version at that level but takes up both the prefix and the suffix slots.

As for the schools -- I like the flavor aspect (call it immersion, if it helps). If you're trying to unify the removers (and relieve us of the choice of which power to extract -- again with the dumbing down, but this is minor) perhaps deconstruction can strip all the powers and extract essences from each power on the item (but fewer essences per power) or from a random power.

[RD2play]

...snip...


This would change fast once the new system comes out. would there be an initial rush and abundance, yes - but I'm thinking long term instead of the first month or three once the initial stockpiles are gone. And lets be honest DDO created those stockpiles people have now and that entire issue because they didn't keep crafting up with the current random loot or epic levels. If they had there wouldn't be the issue of that now. But again this is a short term problem for a permanent system.

Players who already have 150 in all schools will get that XP transferred to the new system. So initially yeah the stockpiles will dwindle, after some time they will be growing again since max crafting levels will once a gain be reached, and lets face it you only need to craft an item you want once. Only new players or players who are actively pursuing quick TR's are really in need of materials after that point.

I still dont understand the whole "invalidates RGL" thing, if RGL has the same power as crafting, both are viable alongside each other, and RGL will always be more so for value as the best random can be traded and sold as not everyone will be crafting, and yes I think the top crafting should remain bound and not able to be unbound.

RGL will have MC, so every time you open a chest or end reward and you see that Teal Border you would hover over to see if it is a nice item. If you could make these we go back to just selling/crunching everything, because why bother I can craft it when needed. So I feel that is a valid point of view by the devs to disallow MC to be crafted under the new system. Also the tech needed to make sure you cannot make a triple MC item would probably make the system again overly complicated on the development side.

Just because devs have not ensured that random loot and power creep does not invalidate named and raid loot does not mean we should cap crafting, named and raid loot should be brought back above random loot as it always should have been (and as I said in an earlier post it should be ML dependent, so ML 20 raid loot is better than ML 20 random, but not as good as say ML 25 or 30 random - although raid and named should be able to have abilities not found in random or crafted loot)

I would love to go back to the days of the 20 cap and before crazy power creep that happened with eveningstar and everything after that - and I hope they cap current numbers where they are for future updates, but they already let that genie out of the bottle so lets have them bring everything in line with the new monstrosity of RGL they created.

Although I agree with you on this part, that ship has sailed unfortunately. A discussion could be had about the max level of crafted items, devs say cr33, maybe it should be better. These are really 2 discussions ML 1-29, and ML 30 items. But then maybe at level 30 you ought to be looking for that shiny Raid/Named gear, and CCrafting will be for those still looking for those items or who are on a TR cycle and do not stay at cap for long. In any case I do agree that indeed Raid loot and SSS gear should be brought into line with the current power curve as they both can take a long time to acquire.

[Ballyspringer]

Only new players or players who are actively pursuing quick TR's are really in need of materials after that point.

Although I agree with what you are saying here for the most part, filling in gaps at lvl 30 after raid and named loot is what I would use this for - and what I used the current crafting for when it came out (just at lvl 20) maybe I'm a minority but I love creating unique and fun strange builds that sometimes there just isn't good raid/named/SSS loot for outside of one or two items.

And (derailing the thread a bit)- with SSS I think a great option for the devs (which would also bring in revenue IMO) is to add to them a legendary 3rd option (so heroic can run at any level, epic you can run at lvl 20+, and a new legendary mode for lvl20+ (or you could have more fun and make legendary lvl 25+ to enter). With that make running legendary version of the end quest that normally gave shards (so like into the deep) those could drop another legendary upgrade token (one for each item) BTA just like the SSS's, with a higher % of dropping based on difficulty (or just dumb it down a bit with how long it takes to get the SSS item - make the legendary upgrade be granted the same way scrolls currently get done). That way you would have to make the old SSS version in epics, and then use the legendary upgrade token to make it legendary ML30. Players who haven't bought those packs would buy them as the loot is top end again and unique fun stuff for different builds, and older players who have bags of SSS mats would again have a use for them. Why reinvent the wheel when there are so many great older packs out there that don't get run often at all anymore (redfens and carnival for example). hell while we're at it legendary version of all the old raids including Titan and TOD!