Cannith Crafting Discussion

[Bobby88888]

As a general broad overview it looks alright but needs some things hammered out clearly before I can say if its good, and a few things need to be considered for revision.

The way I see it there are a couple of must haves for the system

1. The ability to generate all the standard effects available on lootgen. Not all, but all the basics.
As a part of that make sure cannith crafting has a few unique effects too.

2. The ability to generate those to a sufficient level (for stat/ins stat that means at the very least 14/6)

3. Take a lot to level up. I know ive put a lot of work into leveling my crafting to cap and so far there has been precious little reward, its fine to raise the level cap but please oh please do not make it so everyone can be churning out max level things with little investment. Don't get rid of the xp curve.

4. The concept of flexible shards must remain in place in some form. Yeah I get it named items are off slot, but that has always been the biggest draw of cannith crafting, the ability to fit it around my named items or super duper 1 in 1 trillion piece of loot gen.


Some suggestions

1. Ok so i like the idea behind the cannith marks for 3rd effect, great, I mean sure every item will have 3 effects but then cannith crafting has to have some reason to use over loot gen. But how about the other marks (yugo and silver flame)? Any cool plans for those? Like augment slot addition or masterful craftsmanship?

2. Go with 3 schools, mix n match essences from schools in recipies to make them more interesting and unique. Use collectibles, mystical ____ components and purified dragonshard fragments as rare components for either powerful effects or for making a high level item.
On that note, Please increase the stacking of essences, ive already got dozens of inventory slots and several overflowing bags of essences when there are 24 of them, let alone 3 or 1.

3. Make crafting levels tied to account, not character. There's nothing worse than spending an hour logging back and forth between crafter and recipient because the game crashes every time you swap characters. Well ok the lag is a lot worse but you get the picture.

4. Make cannith crafted items bta. I outgrow an item on a char and i just have to decon it and make it on the next char, much simpler to just pass it along.

5. Make the power of the item scale with the level of the character who is currently equipping it. Sure it might get some +0 values at lower levels for certain effects but who cares. Tech might be hard for this 1 but it would be neat.

6. Augment crafting?

7. I'm on the fence with the possibility of clicky crafting. On the one hand its awesome and i would use it a ton, on the other hand any clicky you make craftable will have about a 100% uptime on a crafter and all their friends. Unless crafting them requires rare and/or expensive mats - possible use for existing mystical ______ crafting items. 6 currently exist, with 1 for each clicky for 6, or using them in combinations, or both for rarer and rarer. Eg. common clicky = 1 type of mystical ______, rare clicky = 2 types of mystical _____ and very rare = 3 types of mystical _______.

8. Can we get rid of using Locus of Vol as a crafting mat, get rid of using any item besides blanks as crafting mats.

9. Ammo crafting, make stacks of at least 500, preferably 1k. I've never crafted ammo or looked at it so i dunno what is available atm, but make sure its good and useful.

10. If we are getting rid of the skill/ stat +X, Y and Z and just having +B, then make sure that it is still possible to level crafting, but as above, don't make it too easy.


How about a system that gives moderate investment a return that is lower than lootgen values on items without flexible style capabilites, with high investment giving some flexibleness to shards and increasing the values to be either 1 value step below max loot gen, or equivalent to it.
Use the remaining 2 marks to add Masterful craftsmanship and an augment slot appropriate to the item (to a max of 1 slot on the item total)
What slot should clickys go in? 3rd bonus slot, preix, suffix or a unique clicky slot?

It occurs to me the LGS crafting window could work here as the template for cannith crafting.

[JGHN]

My question is how will this effect the item you craft in in crystal cove with the plus for say the hats you craft for jump ,strength and like the spy glass where you get the different level in crafting there are they going to change also or will they become not able to be used or will it give them more value if you still can use them.

[zehnvhex]

It would be nice if they used this to update a lot of the really old updates terrible crafting sub-systems like the sigils and whatnot for house Deneith, the shards for Reavers Reach, Heroic GS crafting, Eldritch crafting, turning collectables into gems and so forth.

So make it not ~just~ Cannith Crafting update but crafting in general.

[searcher15]

Some concerns that come into mind:

1. All essences combined into 1 (3) types.
-> What about inventory/bag space requirements? If someone has 2500 pieces * 12 types in their green bag, they will now have 1 stack of "universal essence" in bag and 11 stacks in their inventory (combined into 3 slots). Double that for all the stacks of lesser essences.
We could have the old essences converted in some ratio (e.g. 10 for 1 of new type), but how will that affect the price of current lowest tier recipes?

2. Effects will be based directly on ML of the item (like genloot).
-> Will we be still able to make items like:
+6 [Ability] with ML 9? Or will that turn into +4-5 now? On other hand, will we be able to get +10 and more ability bonus on our crafted items?
Acid of Bleeding with ML 1? (1d6+1d8) Or will that get converted into some smaller value due to low level?

Can we have a table with max effect value per ML for random loot, pretty please? (e.g. can ML 9 item have +4, +5 or +6 int at best?)

3. What happens with current crafted items? Do they stay as-is?

4. What about the existing lv 20 cap for crafted items? They used to stay lv 20 even if we put on +15 of enhancement value (would be lv ~29 otherwise).

5. How will the new system affect runearms and other "craftable" items?
- Will the effects auto-scale now with runearm/item base level?
- What happens with my Masterful Craftmanship on challenge items/runearms? No more using them 2 levels earlier?

6. What happens with effects that do not have multiple tiers? Will we see Mobility with increasing bonuses?

7. Will augment slots no longer affect item potential? E.g. Yellow slot no longer counts as +2 enhancement value?

[JGHN]

The idea of marking items as junk and having a button to destroy them for essences is good that would be a way to prevent item u do not want done to be saved and also save time and being able to do it any where would be good but to blank an item and build on it i would say keep it in crafting hall so it does not make the hall and the amenities on the air ships useless since blanking an it is part of the crafting process.

[JGHN]

To all crafting in general i would think be to much of a monster to do in one update and they would have to do the in several updates or patches to where they would not have the time and resources to do that and to do quests or other things on the list.

[zehnvhex]

Double that for all the stacks of lesser essences.
We could have the old essences converted in some ratio (e.g. 10 for 1 of new type), but how will that affect the price of current lowest tier recipes?

They've stated that you will require fewer essences to make things and that they will find some way to convert old essences into the new system. They just need to figure out the ratios that work for them. There will be no more lesser/greater essences either. Current shards will not work with the new system either but they don't know if you should melt them or not yet.

2. Effects will be based directly on ML of the item (like genloot).

They probably won't give us the levels but I'm sure someone will figure it out and make a website for it. I imagine they'll have it such that you're expected to have an affix/suffix on every item. It will most likely close match lootgen so like ML11 will give you +6 stat and +11 skill or whatever.

3. What happens with current crafted items? Do they stay as-is?

Yup, just like old lootgen was not affected by new lootgen. You won't be able to make them anymore though so stock up on ML2 invulnerable armor while you can.

What about the existing lv 20 cap for crafted items? They used to stay lv 20 even if we put on +15 of enhancement value (would be lv ~29 otherwise).

Most likely it will scale up to lvl 30 since they're adding new higher end recipes. They stated CC will scale up to 'treasure level' 33.

How will the new system affect runearms and other "craftable" items?

They've stated it will scale to the level of the item. No word on if they will keep the ML-2 marks in or not.

What happens with effects that do not have multiple tiers? Will we see Mobility with increasing bonuses?

No, it will just have a ML to apply and it's up to you if it's worth it or not.

Will augment slots no longer affect item potential? E.g. Yellow slot no longer counts as +2 enhancement value?

Not sure. Reworking the augment system entirely is something they're looking to as is.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

My question is how will this effect the item you craft in in crystal cove with the plus for say the hats you craft for jump ,strength and like the spy glass where you get the different level in crafting there are they going to change also or will they become not able to be used or will it give them more value if you still can use them.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here (Punctuation is your friend!) but Crystal Cove has absolutely nothing to do with Cannith Crafting whatsoever. None of it even has a Craftable effect (like Cannith Challenges do). So, um. Yeah. I'm gonna go with "Cove hats and spyglasses and anything else Cove-related will be untouched."

Some concerns that come into mind:

1. All essences combined into 1 (3) types.
-> What about inventory/bag space requirements? If someone has 2500 pieces * 12 types in their green bag, they will now have 1 stack of "universal essence" in bag and 11 stacks in their inventory (combined into 3 slots). Double that for all the stacks of lesser essences.

Potentially even worse - greater essences only stack to 1K. So if they go that route instead of the 10K stacking lessers have, you're looking at 1 stack of 2500 in your bag and 58 stacks in your inventory for the other 57,500.

And may the gods help you if you have a Colossal Bag (like I do) with full stacks. I'm looking at potentially 230 extra stacks (not to mention the overflow I already have in the shared bank, which is probably a fair amount of lessers so possibly 300+ stacks...) So I'm getting ready to sacrifice a minotaur to Lolth for 10K stacks lol

[cdbd3rd]

...

And may the gods help you if you have a Colossal Bag (like I do) with full stacks. I'm looking at potentially 230 extra stacks (not to mention the overflow I already have in the shared bank, which is probably a fair amount of lessers so possibly 300+ stacks...) So I'm getting ready to sacrifice a minotaur to Lolth for 10K stacks lol

*adds second Minotaur sacrifice.*

Stack sizes will certainly be a concern.

[CherryLaBomb]

I see this thread and I know that something is going to happen. What exactly, I do not know. What I do know is that almost from day 1 of coming to DDO (that was around update 8) that I have been interested and have pursued the crafting. My reaction to this discussion is an aching head and churning stomach. We have seen the devs make changes with impunity in the past and we have lost out. I realize that DDO is their game to develop and modify, but I do have some dread to this unknown.

I have personally spent much time and resources diligently collecting and maintain parts for crafting.
I have spent real money to make store purchases for items specifically for crafting (inventory bags, shared bank space, etc).
I made specific characters that are optimized for crafting. Did a restart when Artificer became a class.
I spent the majority of my hard collected resources just to maximize my crafting levels and capabilities.
I have used many hours of DDO time to research and learn to craft items in order to maximize effectiveness and minimize wasted resources.

I could go on, but I suspect that others vested in Canith Crafting have similar tales.

Like I said, DDO is your game and I am only a consumer so my only request is that we don't get screwed too terribly much by the changes.

Thank you

[rehakp]

I will speak now about WoW crafting system (some years back .. not sure what its now) and point out what was wrong and what was nice there.
But first quick summary of whats now canith crafting in DDO.
Canith crafting now is twink crafting and nothing more. Its great if you starting new toon on level 1 and can craft pair of those holy/leeser undead bane maces for delara. Invu armor ... and ... and that basically all. No room for level 10+

Now what was wrong and good about WoW and what we can learn from this.
Mastering crafting was waaaaaaaaaay too mutch grinding. (Canith in DDO is also too mutch grind maybe even more)
Also huuuuge money sink and comparing crafting versus just selling the items and mats and buying desired items on auction was always better to sell and buy. (Hmm seems familiar in DDO ? )
So the only benefit crafters had in WoW was
1.) Master recipes ... there was some recipes that were "superior" and only master crafter could make them. No chance of drop in game for this effect.
2.) prestiege .. master crafter had alot of frieds there
But what got wrong there ?
With all those expansions those "superior" recipes become obsolete. AND noncrafters was wheeners that was saying "I dont like the crafters could do THIS and THAT and i cant. AND i also dont like to grind for crafting. Just make crafting useless and ill be happy".
SADLY .. developers want to make wheeners happy and so they made crafting useless.
But atleast they made some recipes only usefull for master crafters.

Well how to apply this knowledge to DDO ?

1.) Dont make crafting useless please.
2.) If you made top-tier recipes same power as some random green loot is now it will make it useless because. a.) everyone could have it without any sort of crafting b.) it will be even weaker than random green on next patch.
3.) Dont make top-tier crafting weaker than lucky greens. (I dont say make it stronger at all levels) Atleast top-tier crafting should be stronger than lucky greens insted its pointless .. even worse ... its grind+pointless = pointless grind
4.) Crafting is time+money consuming grind. Should be better than (green)luck at top-tier.

It just should be this way : Named raid items > Top-Tier crafting > Lucky random loot and mid crafting > random loot and low crafting
But SADLY now its like this : Lucky random > Named > crafting
Please fix that. You have the power now. Im happy if i have to invest > 4 milion platinum and some hours in crafting hall to level crafting if i get some usefull recipes thats USEFULL. But i will not be happy with investing money and time to get something i can buy on auction house for 1000 gp in common trash section

[SamaelBael]

It just should be this way : Named raid items > Top-Tier crafting > Lucky random loot and mid crafting > random loot and low crafting
But SADLY now its like this : Lucky random > Named > crafting
Please fix that. You have the power now. Im happy if i have to invest > 4 milion platinum and some hours in crafting hall to level crafting if i get some usefull recipes thats USEFULL. But i will not be happy with investing money and time to get something i can buy on auction house for 1000 gp in common trash section

+1

[Faltout]

What will happen to cannith challenge items and craftable runearms?

They've stated it will scale to the level of the item. No word on if they will keep the ML-2 marks in or not.

What will happen to old effects that do not exist in new random loot and do not scale with ML? Will they be updated to scale?

No, it will just have a ML to apply and it's up to you if it's worth it or not.

Um, where are you getting that info? Is it from a council thread (breach to discuss in open forums) or from your imagination?

Because from what NoWorries has written, nothing points to the 2 answers you gave. In fact, NoWorries' replies point to 1. Craftable runearms and cannith challenge items will no longer be able to be crafted and 2. Old effects will no longer be available.

And even if the answer to runearms is what you gave (applying effects that scale with the runearm level), that would create vastly powerful runearms (assuming there are some effects that can be applied to trinkets since new random loot does not do trinkets).

[Dandonk]

It just should be this way : Named raid items > Top-Tier crafting > Lucky random loot and mid crafting > random loot and low crafting
But SADLY now its like this : Lucky random > Named > crafting
Please fix that. You have the power now. Im happy if i have to invest > 4 milion platinum and some hours in crafting hall to level crafting if i get some usefull recipes thats USEFULL. But i will not be happy with investing money and time to get something i can buy on auction house for 1000 gp in common trash section

I agree completely, but I fear it's not going to happen like that.

[Ballyspringer]

"Cannith Crafting will be as powerful as normal Random Loot"

"Random Loot chests can go as high as level 40. Cannith Crafting is currently planned to top out at Level 33 Loot. There will be increasingly better Minimum Level 30 shards to be crafted (the recipe an item will state what loot level it represents)."


Seems to me that those statements contradict each other, if someone puts in the time and effort of crafting I agree it should not be better than random loot (although I did like that originally you could get the same items 2ML better than random) - but I don't understand making it so the top crafted items aren't as good as the top random items after having spent the time and effort in crafting. To me that makes it dead on arrival already as for TR's it's a nice system, but unless it's end game viable things that are only bettered by named and raid loot to me it's pointless.

"Since we will also be adding in new levels of Cannith Crafting for new higher end recipes, it is likely also a good time to reduce the leveling curve. Existing crafters will hold onto all of their XP, therefore they will have head start on players new to crafting. And, depending on how the curves are adjusted, may find themselves with even higher levels of crafting than they had before the update. Meaning they may be able to craft some of the new higher level recipes upon logging in."

this should be interesting on how it plays out, I'm not a fan of the words "head start" as they make me nervous - but should be interesting to see the final outcome of this



also I 100% agree with rehakp: "It just should be this way : Named raid items > Top-Tier crafting > Lucky random loot and mid crafting > random loot and low crafting"

[pjw]

One specific point that would be useful to have feedback on is if people prefer to keep all 3 Cannith schools.

I would prefer one school; the only appreciable purpose of 3 schools was to increase grind -- anyone who wanted to craft pretty much needed all 3.

That said, I have no problem with multiple essence types (ie. in some sense preserving schools, but only in terms of the craftable effects, not separate XP). This seems to preserve lore AND simplify the system.

A worry I have with the much simplified system is that currently XP is gained by crafting different recipes. The new system has MUCH fewer recipes so either the decay needs to be removed/reduced (perhaps like quest XP -- a first time bonus then daily bonus etc), or the XP/recipe needs to be massively increased.

[Requiro]

(...)

Why not (...) asking the players what they want? (...)

Because of the first and last image... Players often don't really know what they want.

From my perspective: I like new vision of CC and looking by respond to this threat, I’m not alone.

[pjw]

Consider the possibility of manufacturing time. ie. I place my ingredients into the machine and, perhaps, hours later the item appears. Increased levels would reduce the time taken and, perhaps, the number of concurrent items.

Also, please consider allowing unbound items. Make them take 10x as long to craft (or something). Or 10x as much ingredients.

IMO the unbound, bound-on-equip effect list should match the bound effect list 100%; just make it much harder to make.

Edit: a low level character should be able to make enough items at the same time to be able to level up at a 'reasonable' rate, whatever that is.

Edit 2: and item queues might be a good idea...so that even if I can only make 3 items at once, I can queue more than 3 that get build while I am logged out.

[JOTMON]

I will be continuing to read feedback and thoughts on Cannith Crafting.

So far on the specific topic of 3 schools vs 1 school: 1 school has had about 50% more support (or 1.5x as much, to write it another way). Early next week we will likely make a determination on that specific issue so that work can get underway.

As always it is important to repeat that once we start work, any number of unforeseen issues could pop up making plans change.

Wouldn't mind combining all the schools for the basic crafting, then have top level branches where you could specialize into a branch (thereby locking out the other branches).
Something like a Mastersmith of Jewellery crafting.. your overall crafting is superior, but your jewellery work is renowned.. Its as if you have infused a part of your self into the work
every Piece of jewellery you craft is imbued with masterful/wonderous due to your exceptional focus and skill.
You may have even unlocked the ability to apply quality bonuses by imbuing some special ingredients (commendations, tokens, remnants, whatevers,.. along with sacrifice of crafting XP into your work.
.. variations for armor, clothing, weapons, etc...
Lets players make some great items that could be sold/traded and limits the market flood due to the required farm for crafting xp and special ingredients...


Would also like to see a transition that allows currently uncraftable items to be crafted..
use the basic stripdown for basic components and crafting..
Use focussed ingredients to craft higher value things.. like Vorpal.. deconstruct many random vorpal weapons into vorpal fragments.. need a bunch of these fragments to craft Vorpal, etc..
so to craft these higher effects you actually have to collect and crunch these specific effects from other items, not just any basic ingredients.

[RD2play]

...really compare to WoW????.... yeah sure lets make this game like the kindergarten generic game you can play under a million other IPs.

It just should be this way : Named raid items > Top-Tier crafting > Lucky random loot and mid crafting > random loot and low crafting
But SADLY now its like this : Lucky random > Named > crafting
Please fix that. You have the power now. Im happy if i have to invest > 4 milion platinum and some hours in crafting hall to level crafting if i get some usefull recipes thats USEFULL. But i will not be happy with investing money and time to get something i can buy on auction house for 1000 gp in common trash section

I need to correct you here, New Named >= Lucky RGL > old named > old crafting....

And I don't agree with you, I think the devs are hitting the right spot with their desire to have all loot have value, one type should not be inherently better than all other types! And if you think being able to choose the 3 effects is weaker than you can get from RGL lottery, well maybe you are just very lucky then! or only play standard builds, because I have plenty crazy builds I will probably never see the right items in the AH, as they would be considered junk by others.

The fact that you can tailor items to your needs makes the crafting system useful, and in the OP it is said they like to have some effects be only in crafting, some only in RGL, and some only on named. It will be for you as a player to decide whether it will be worth your time, it should not become another must do grind IMO.