Cleric pass : Warpriest tree

[Vish]

Well, my approach was to offer something to clerics (and fav soul) that would focus on their primary stat.
I believe wisdom to dam/hit should also be offered to Druid and monk.

But primarily cleric melee is str/cha, with DM being the main add. I would rather it be offered in the tier than the core, as that would force clerics to be wisdom only fighters, and DM and str cha would become dump stats. I think that is still a viable strategy with MC, especially paladin. And would like that route to remain open.
And I think the core blur and haste are good, but the five is meh, and should be much better. Especially if going pure cleric and core 5. Should be as good as splashing pally and going sacred d.

But I want wisdom to be an alternative to str/cha, and potentially much better. Just good synergy.

This could open up cleric MC possibilities with monk and ranger.

But with wis to hit at tier 5, you're competing with losing the radiant aura, which is the backbone of a melee cleric. So it has to be something better than aura. If you go tier 5 core 5 warpriest, you should have an equivalent fighter. With heals. And bursts.

Maybe divine might can be cha to wis?
Or maybe that should be divine presence?

[axel15810]

I wouldn't be for adding WIS to damage. I think it's a nice differentiating quality for melee clerics to be STR based and casters to be WIS based. It makes sense and provides variety in builds. Right now there's 3 distinct build paths for cleric - STR based melee, WIS based caster and CHA based turner. I don't want to see any of those blurred towards a one size fits all build. We lose variety that way.

Rather, I'd like to see all 3 build types have their own cleric tree and all be viable and remain differentiated. And instead of a dedicated healing tree, all clerics should get a lot of that stuff either via cores that mirror each other (burst could be included in core 3 for every tree, aura could be included in core 4 for every tree, ect.), or perhaps some inherently as they level up via special class feats. However the devs do it, getting full cleric healing abilities via aura and bursts should not require a 32 AP investment. Healing should be inherent to the class, especially considering how drastically the healing role has been proxy nerfed over the past several years.

As for Warpriest, its such a mess. There's so many issues with it to the point where I wouldn't mind it being trashed and being completely redone, if dev time permits. There's so many outdated concepts and flawed designs/abilities that I'm not convinced the tree as a whole can be properly fixed through buffs.

[Enoach]

I understand that some don't like this tree, but I actually like this tree and it plays well with my Generalist Cleric.

However, this might be because I don't see the Aura as a Must Have. I find the extra damage as well as the percent chance that a caster gets knocked down if they cast on me.

For me the enhancements that need tuning:

Sanctuary - It lasts 20 seconds and it costs SP for only +20 PRR.
I think this would be better if it was more like the Sanctuary Spell (Which should be in the game) and require a Will Save or the Attacker can't attack the Warded Cleric (Should be self only). It should last 6 seconds per Cleric Level - And Break if the Warded Cleric Makes an Attack (AoE attacks/spells are not subject)

Implacable Foe - 18 seconds with 5 minute cooldown
I like this ability but 18 seconds every 5 minutes. Even with a 10% melee boost and +100 Temp HP refreshed every 3 seconds. The amount of time it lasts vs the cooldown is off. This ability needs to be available more often even if the Temp HP or refresh rate gets adjust to less temp HP or more time between the refresh.

Sacred Touch - needs to be triggered on more than just spells. It needs to be part of other positive energy effects such as Ameliorating Strike and even energy burst/aura.

Inflame - Limited number of uses. The bonuses are small, but can be very helpful. But limiting the number of uses to 5 (6 with ship buffs) per shrine gives only a total of 3 minutes of effect. If you are going to limit the number of uses then its cooldown should not be that much more than its duration. So instead of 1 minute maybe 40 Seconds. That keeps it from being a 3 minute spam. Possibly even change to not be tiered on effect but each additional Rank adds an additional use and it is a +4 AC/Attk/Dmg - Cost 2 AP. Change the Add-Ons Energy Absorption and Saving Throws to 2AP single Tier

Divine Power - I like all the other Tier 5s and I get why this is here but it is no better than the spell and the BaB gain is less then Tensor's but it also doesn't have the downsides.

Now why I don't think Wisdom to Attk/dmg is not needed for a cleric is that this would open up a very powerful melee + caster as there would be very little downside. Tensor's reduces the DCs and increases the cooldown of spells so this makes it tougher to be an Intelligence based Melee and have high DC casting abilities. So I'm for keeping the abilities to Strength for Melee Cleric.

[Vish]

Wisdom to dam/hit isn't in the game

So it would be a game changer.
Rise of the clerics

And we could have an update with some undead in it. At legendary.

And yes it would op. why not?
Then we could have cleric raids instead of warlocks.

But really. I'm looking to introduce wis conversion into a dead tree and make pure clerics viable melee.
Dump stat. Omg.

The issue is the bursts and aura. Really most needed for melee. if you make this core to cleric then it changes whole dynamic. But as is warpriest has to compete with radiant, and you'll never see tier 5 anyway. So make it worthwhile. If you have to lose your aura what's to gain?

I see only 2 kinds of cleric. Radiant and divine. The radiants are all usual axel builds, and the divines are all pure. One spams slas and the other glows and stands in the middle of fights.
And I don't see the spammers healing, but bursting sometimes. Though they do good damage.
But the melee strength is its aura, only good at close quarters. And it makes you a tank.

I would just like to see a revamp and clerics getting some godly luv.
Wisdom to damage at tier 4 and then lose the aura for to hit. And maybe introduce new builds with cleric MC possibilities.

Or really. A new patron tree.
The silver flame?

With wisdom to hit/dam

[Enoach]

Additionally, I think a big game changer would be to add more weapons to choose from. And that can even mean more divine choices even bringing in more racial specific deity choices.

[Ikeas]

If warpriest gains WIS to attack/damage before monks, there will be riot.

[Vish]

If warpriest gains WIS to attack/damage before monks, there will be riot.

Well, I just saw over in monk suggested new trees,
No wisdom to hit/dam...

You could always MC monk with cleric,

Or somebody needs to rework monk with it figured in.

Or maybe that second patron isn't looking too bad now... (one size fits all!)

[Hoglum]

I wouldn't be for adding WIS to damage. I think it's a nice differentiating quality for melee clerics to be STR based and casters to be WIS based. It makes sense and provides variety in builds. Right now there's 3 distinct build paths for cleric - STR based melee, WIS based caster and CHA based turner. I don't want to see any of those blurred towards a one size fits all build. We lose variety that way.

This doesn't get the whole point of Cleric.

If you want to melee - Fighter or Paladin.

If you want to cast - Sorcerer, Wizard or Warcock.

Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above. This idea of having to choose "caster cleric" or "melee cleric' is not conducive to what Clerics were designed for in the first place. Even specializing as a caster or melee they don't get even close to the others so they need to get up to speed somehow & the game's already borked beyond recognition with the intelligence to damage, constitution to damage, etc. It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys.

[Vish]

Ok, forgot to add +50% AC on pally splash. Hard to beat

And I'm most über piking gimp of all
Joke is when three clerics in a party all standing around looking at each other, who's gonna do the killing? Lolz. That's almost quest fail by itself...

But to add burst and aura to warpriest

Tree 4
Tier 1 3ap sacred touch whatever
Tier 2 3ap divine presence charisma to wisdom 3 ranks
Tier 3 2ap positive energy burst
Tier 4 3ap positive energy aura

Get rid of inflame stuff, nice idea but aura better
Bring divine presence to tier 2

Leave wisdom to hit/damage in favored weapons tree.

Now if we could get the cores from the other warpriest suggestion, like displacement core 5? And +2 stats on core 6, then warpriest would be a serious loaded tree

Question is, what is tier5 aura in radiant being replaced with?
Axel?

[Vish]

Oh yea,
Giving burst and aura to warpriest will
Give it to favored soul

Is this what we want?

Don't know if they're gonna allow that?

[savingsoul]

Oh yea,
Giving burst and aura to warpriest will
Give it to favored soul

Is this what we want?

Don't know if they're gonna allow that?

Exactly. The point is to retain Clerics as the best healing class--that is their primary specialization, that is their role. That's another reason why I'm against putting aura and burst in Warpriest.

Putting aura and burst in every tree--or merely adding them to Warpriest--would undermine not only the three minor emphases within the cleric class, it would undermine the major emphasis of the cleric class--i.e. healing--altogether as well. It would destroy build variety and further cave in to the mono-culture of confused soloist-in-group builds that is darkening all of DDO.

[savingsoul]

And I'm most über piking gimp of all
Joke is when three clerics in a party all standing around looking at each other, who's gonna do the killing? Lolz. That's almost quest fail by itself...

I don't mean to be harsh, but I have Divine Crusader currently active as my ED, so live with it or die!

However, the above statement can only mean one or two things.

Either:
(1) You don't know how to build a battle and/or offensive casting cleric.
(2) You don't understand roles and the party dynamics that go along with them.

Regarding #1, Consider three clerics w/ Axel's THF Battle Cleric build. Would they stand around looking at each other wondering who is going to do the killing? This is especially true if that build is as good at soloing as people make it out to be.

If you were referring only to pure clerics, then disregard the above, though I still think a decent battle cleric can be made on a pure cleric as well--for example, via h/elf w/ Scimitars taking Divine Crusader as the ED.

Regarding #2, if there are only three clerics in a party that focus predominantly on healing, protection, and support, then the problem is not the builds. It's simply this: *the party is unbalanced*.

It makes me sad when I have to explain that to someone. It really goes to the root of all the evil and darkness that has overtaken DDO, sometimes consciously, other times unconsciously.

A few days ago, someone actually denied my request to join their party after explaining via a tell to me that they already had a healer.

Did this upset me? Absolutely not.

Rather, I said out loud: Praise be to the Goddess!

For this meant that there was at least *someone* out there who still understood party dynamics. Indeed, being denied from joining a party because your role was already fulfilled was quite common back in the day -- the day before the darkening. At the same time, it really didn't matter because there were always more parties to join, since the game, as a whole and aware of wholeness, was thriving. You--especially if you were a healer--were needed elsewhere.

I then explained to them that I was a battle cleric w/ fairly decent dps.

So they invited me into the party, and I accepted.

Working together, mindful of our roles, we killed it.

[Vish]

Haha u didn't get the joke

I run two battleclerics
Same builds basically, one thf, one twf
And then in comes a warlock and I realize I'm left taking down the last few hp of trash
But still providing a healing aura! Whoopee everything is dead before it damaged us... See?

But really I can cleric ona warlock just as good basically
And kill stuff
It's called cocoon

That's where clerics are too me
The role isn't warranted in epic or really legendary
Everyone self heals

That's kinda death of cleric class...
Because first thing I look for when red bars drop is,
Who covers their own ass?
Mostly everyone, but sometimes I got to cover
Rogues and barbs, and monks seem squishy too

I'm old school
Last I played was lvl 16 in the shroud
Fight against Harry had to be measured
Had to conserve mana and cycle masses with other clerics

Now I'm back in 9 months and clerics aren't needed.
Haven't cast a mass yet...
Don't need roles in solo play, just dps
There aren't real big grouped fights, yea Harry quickly again and the book
But the aura covers that, and most of the time ppl just die, so only rezzing

Don't get me wrong, i still see lots clerics in guilds
But I also see they not good healers, like they've never really had to work it as a cleric
Mostly a rezzer
Well that's 15sp in US
Even took that away
And everybody scrolls, so...

So my feelings are something has to be done to bring clerics back
Viola wisdom conversion

[savingsoul]

Regarding your battle cleric build, you wrote . . .

So I opted out max dps, which really, you're there to add and give melees max dps opportunity. And make them feel safe. Dps matters more if you're soloing. Which I can but don't enjoy. But it is a good test.
This is a force multiplier build. It covers the team.

DPS does matter if you are soloing, but so do defense and self-sufficiency (e.g. self-buffs and self-healing), and neither of those things necessarily mean max DPS (on the single build/character)--especially when that build/character is placed in a group dynamic where they have a dedicated healer.

So the flip side of your insight above is that ***melees, ranged, and offensive casters have the opportunity to max dps when they can rely on a dedicated healer--and perhaps rely on other forms of support in appropriate situations via things like cc, tanking (which can also be a form of cc) & buffs--rather than compromise their build and/or style-of-play too much with concerns over defense and self-sufficiency***.

With both sides of the coin, you have two of the key insights of The Old Way.

You wrote that less than a month ago. But I fear now that you are struggling with the darkness.

However, there is grace, there is hope . . .

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Battle-Clerics
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...cs-w-Scimitars

As far as the warlock you mention goes, they are either op'd or they need to be in a more challenging quest where they do require support. That also goes for other builds/chars who run amok killing everything w/o any need for back-up. Why are these people even running in groups?

I'm also against op'd things like cocoon that undermine the role of the cleric (though cocoon is weaker if you don't have empower heal, which requires a splash in a healing class; also, the HOT from cocoon only lasts as long as the +150 hp, which isn't very long in Epic Elite or Legendary content). Cocoon should absolutely not be in the first tier of Primal Avatar -- if anywhere. It's simply ridiculous to have healing that powerful available on the first tier, and so easily twisted into any build. Likewise, Sacred Ground should be bumped up to the fourth tier of Divine Crusader--or, perhaps even better, moved to the natives so it can't be twisted.

I understand your frustration. As part of the creeping darkness there has come the creeping boredom you get when you find yourself piking not by choice but as a result of the fact that the quest is just way too easy for one or more people in the party.

Indeed, since questing in most cases has become so easy in DDO these days (though praise be for Search and Rescue!), people should really be questing further above their level and tapping into The Old Way rather than simply breezing though quests w/ little or no effort or thought. If they reach a peak at Legendary Elite and they are still able to run amok without any need for support, then obviously either their build is op'd and needs to be nerfed or DDO simply hasn't made the most difficult kind of quest--along w/ many others--difficult enough.

[savingsoul]

This doesn't get the whole point of Cleric.

If you want to melee - Fighter or Paladin.

If you want to cast - Sorcerer, Wizard or Warcock.

Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above. This idea of having to choose "caster cleric" or "melee cleric' is not conducive to what Clerics were designed for in the first place. Even specializing as a caster or melee they don't get even close to the others so they need to get up to speed somehow & the game's already borked beyond recognition with the intelligence to damage, constitution to damage, etc. It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys.

I'm confused by your comment. First you say, "Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above." Then you end with, "It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys." So which is it?

Also, what is wrong with having three minor emphases--in this case, healer, offensive caster, and melee--on one major class? Nearly all classes are like that.

I suppose by "get Clerics back to being Clerics", you mean back to being healers. I'm all for that. However, I think that can already be done with the current set of trees. Maybe, just maybe, Divine Disciple needs some kind of healing option incorporated, though I'm not sure how to do that. In any case, offensive casting clerics definitely get benefits to healing from Exalted Angel. Moreover, just like with Warpriest, someone w/ Divine Disciple as main can get Burst from RS for only 11 ap.

I'm pretty happy with the current state of affairs and not sure what all the griping is all about beyond the Warpriest tree--and even that, as I've said, just needs the natural progression of more favored weapons and perhaps a minor tweak on passive benefits.

[Hoglum]

I'm confused by your comment. First you say, "Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above." Then you end with, "It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys." So which is it?

My statements don't conflict with each other. Clerics should not be caster only or melee only. They should do both. If you build a cleric to only melee they are a pseudo fighter. If you build a cleric to only cast they are pseudo Wizard. Currently, DDO makes it extremely difficult for a Cleric to both melee and cast, which is what they should be doing.

I don't mind if someone wants to build clerics that way. Let them, but it's not how clerics are supposed to be in D&D. They should be good, but not the best, at both fighting and casting at the same time. That is difficult in the current environment.

And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built.

[savingsoul]

My statements don't conflict with each other. Clerics should not be caster only or melee only. They should do both. If you build a cleric to only melee they are a pseudo fighter. If you build a cleric to only cast they are pseudo Wizard. Currently, DDO makes it extremely difficult for a Cleric to both melee and cast, which is what they should be doing.

I don't mind if someone wants to build clerics that way. Let them, but it's not how clerics are supposed to be in D&D. They should be good, but not the best, at both fighting and casting at the same time. That is difficult in the current environment.

And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built.

It's true that if you go way back into D&D history, the cleric originally started as a hybrid of "Fighting-Men" and "Magic-Users". I can respect that if you are trying to get back to the roots of D&D.

It seems kind of weird and comical though in light of your dis on healing: it's like you are saying, "Clerics shouldn't be pseudo-fighters or pseudo-wizards, they should be Pseudo-Fighter/Wizards!"

In any case, this is DDO, and DDO began pretty much with D&D 3.5, later incorporating elements of 4.

-----
"Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition

The cleric's power source remains divine, and they fill the role of Leader. [***]Their powers (called prayers) are mainly concerned with healing, protection and support[***]; however, like most 4th edition classes, they gain the standard number of attack powers based on their level, and like all 4th edition classes, their attack powers generally include damage-dealing capabilities. Like Wizards, Clerics gain Ritual Caster as a bonus feat.

[***]The Player's Handbook presents two Cleric builds, Battle Cleric, which focuses on offense, melee combat and Strength-based prayers, and Devoted Cleric, focusing on support, ranged combat and Wisdom-based prayers, many of the cleric's Strength and Wisdom based prayers have secondary effects related to Charisma.[***]"
-----

Therefore, by the time you get to D&D 3.5 & 4--and DDO--there is little reason to dis on a "healbot", if someone in the cleric class chooses that path.

Indeed, someone might say that dissing on "healbots" given the mechanics of DDO is azz backwards!

Especially if you put it this way: "And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built."

Consider, for example, the following question: Why do clerics in DDO get only *heal* spells automatically in their spell book via spontaneous casting--and no other?

Of course, a "healbot" is at the extreme end of merely one possibility w/in the cleric class, but my opinion is that, per D&D 4th Edition, "healing, protection and support" should remain priorities pretty much across the board on a cleric--though I will always welcome getting clever w/ the cleric class for the sake of flavor.

In any case, people, if you do not want a role of healing, protection, and support, please stop trying to destroy the cleric class and kindly move on to (an)other class(es) and another forum. Thank you!

REFERENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric...s_%26_Dragons)

[Hoglum]

Why do clerics in DDO get only *heal* spells automatically in their spell book via spontaneous casting--and no other?



REFERENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric...s_%26_Dragons)

The answer is because nobody wanted to play healbots. In early D&D you had to load spells and to have some healing on a cleric you could end up loading nothing but healing spells and not be able to cast otherwise. Healing is important, so don't get me wrong. However, in 1st & 2nd editions there was no spontaneous casting so when you wanted to heal you better have some spells loaded.

Here's an excerpt from the link you posted: "Spontaneous casting encourages clerics to function the way adventures often require them to, as steady sources of healing (or damage), but allows them to prepare a full variety of spells in case not all that direct power is needed."

The spontaneous casting allows Clerics to have healing ready an any time without using up slots to "load" such spells. Thus, having spontaneous casting was design specifically to keep Clerics from having to be simply "healers".

Also, 4th edition sucked and didn't go over well. DDO was based on 3.5 which was much cooler. Everyone went to Pathfinder when D&D4 came out then D&D5 seems to have moved back to the roots which made the game great.