Cleric pass : Warpriest tree

[savingsoul]

Like you said, you would have burst, aura and amey strike. Yes you can have all 3, but that comes at a cost of losing out on other enhancements. The benefits of having all 3 are not worth the opportunity cost of not having those points to spend elsewhere. So yeah, around half of those things either I don't want or I'd get more out of my points from spending them elsewhere. It's not that many of them are "bad" perse, it's just you get more for your points out of other trees.

Thing is there really is only a very marginal additional benefit to having aemy strike if you have radiant bursts. Aura makes it even moreso. You just overheal with it the vast majority of the time, and it has way too many restrictions for it to go off not to mention nearly triple the cooldown of burst. And the animation isn't exactly fast, meanwhile you can throw out a much more reliable quickened burst and only lose a swing to two. The DPS loss difference between the two is really marginal. It also takes up valuable easy to access space on your hotkeys that is better used for better melee attacks like cleaves, dire charge, momentum swing, lay waste, ect.

It's really in my opinion only viable as a self-healing tool for other classes who want to splash 4 divine levels for it. And even then it's costly. Amey strike is just too unreliable to be depended on for party healing.

Personally I think that ability needs to either be converted into a debuff focus or removed from warpriest entirely and replaced when they redo it. I see what they were going for with amey strike, they were giving those clerics who don't take aura and/or bursts something to replace it with. And it's better for favored souls as they don't have bursts or aura. Not all that much better though. But it's better if all clerics had access to aura and bursts...AKA make them tier 3 and tier 4.

Well, I started out with that b/c I was selling Amey Strike to those people who are very fond of the Radiant Servant tree and the Aura--like you. I also provide Aura, Burst, and Amey Strike on the default versions of the enhancements on the builds I offered for the same reason.

The thing is, on a battle cleric, the Radiant Servant tree also comes at a *huge* cost in terms of ap, b/c you rely very little on heal spells, and that is pretty much the main thing that benefits from all those points you spend in RS beyond the burst and the aura.

So, on a battle cleric, the Radiant Servant tree is frankly a bit overrated. Everything except burst on the way to the aura is useless!

At least with Amey Strike--which I think is far better than you are making it out to be--as I have shown, you can get some useful things for a battle cleric along the way up the Warpriest tree.

So what I've done in other sets of enhancements is to forgo the aura and retain merely the burst, which costs only 11 ap (and you can get endless turning from Divine Crusader), then take Amey Strike and put all those points you get from giving up the aura into other trees--which are now also open to Tier 5 enhancements since you dropped the aura. That eliminates any overhealing issue--which I don't think exists anyway--as well as removes the insecurity of relying entirely on Amey Strike, since you can always revert to bursts when necessary (especially since you are now not spending turns on the aura).

EDIT:

Like you said, you would have burst, aura and amey strike. Yes you can have all 3, but that comes at a cost of losing out on other enhancements. The benefits of having all 3 are not worth the opportunity cost of not having those points to spend elsewhere. So yeah, around half of those things either I don't want or I'd get more out of my points from spending them elsewhere. It's not that many of them are "bad" perse, it's just you get more for your points out of other trees.

I just wanted to add that we are now both assuming that someone will be multi-classing. Whereas, in the post you are responding to, where I showed how you can get Amey Strike w/ no complaints along with Burst and Aura, I left open the possibility of going pure (for example, via h/elf w/ scimitars).

The point: If someone goes pure cleric, the only other cleric tree they will have access to is Divine Disciple, and how are the enhancements in that tree going to benefit a battle cleric that focuses on *melee* presumably using STR rather than WIS? It only makes sense then that they will put points into Radiant Servant and Warpriest. However, what you can still gain from this discussion regarding a pure cleric is that you might want to go Tier 5 on Warpriest rather than RS . . . especially on an elf . . .

[axel15810]

Well, I started out with that b/d was trying to sell Amey strike to those people are very fond of the Radiant Servant tree and the Aura. I also provide Aura, Burst, and Amey Strike on the default versions of the enhancements on the builds I offered for the same reason.

The thing is, on a battle cleric, the Radiant Servant tree also comes at a *huge* cost in terms of ap, b/c your rely very little on heal spells, and that is pretty much the main thing that benefits from all those points you spend in RS beyond the burst and the aura.

So, on a battle cleric, the Radiant Servant tree is also a bit overrated. Everything except burst on the way to the aura is useless on a battle cleric!

At least with Amey Strike, as I have shown, you can get some useful things for a battle cleric along the way.

So what I've done in other sets of enhancements is to forgo the aura for merely the burst, which costs only 11 ap (and you can get endless turning from Divine Crusader), then put the 21 ap's you get from that into other trees while taking Amey Strike--which also leaves open Tier 5 enhancements in other trees. That eliminates any overhealing issue as well as removes the insecurity of relying entirely on Amey Strike, since you can always revert to bursts (especially since you are also now not spending turns on the aura).

I agree partially. In today's game, spending 32 AP on aura may not be worth it. But...in my opinion having aura and bursts together is what makes a cleric a cleric in DDO. So if I don't take aura, I feel like I have no compelling reason to not just play a paladin. And honestly, you could take that argument to whatever end you want. We really all have no reason to not just play whatever the #1 build is since the game has gone away from party roles for the most part. In the end everyone who doesn't play whatever the #1 build is is just playing a flavor build...unless they feel their particular playstyle/skillset would make another build the best in game for them. And either way that wouldn't be a cleric.

I don't agree that RS is useless otherwise. The RS tree is solidly better than warpriest in terms of what you get on your way to aura verses what you get on your way to amey strike. Not saying everything is good, there's some junk in there. But to each his own, that's just my opinion.

[savingsoul]

Regarding some reasons why Amey Strike is better than you make it out to be . . .

Thing is there really is only a very marginal additional benefit to having aemy strike if you have radiant bursts. Aura makes it even moreso. You just overheal with it the vast majority of the time, and it has way too many restrictions for it to go off not to mention nearly triple the cooldown of burst. And the animation isn't exactly fast, meanwhile you can throw out a much more reliable quickened burst and only lose a swing to two. The DPS loss difference between the two is really marginal.

These points are moot b/c in all cases I have suggested you will have both Radiant Burst and Amey Strike. They won't be competing in any scenario, you will have both.

If you are suggesting you can overheal w/ merely Amey Strike and Burst w/o Aura, that is another reason to drop Aura.

You can continue melee (which you never interrupted w/ Amey Strike in the first place), including other special attacks from your attack chain, while Amey Strike is on cooldown.

What are all these restrictions on it going off? You just have to hit something. That's what battle clerics do.

Lastly, the animation is slow? That's just silly as far as providing arguments against it goes. It does not prevent you from continuing w/ your melee, using other special attacks or clickies, etc. Just witness the hp bars fill up instantaneously on your fellow party members. That's all you need.

It also takes up valuable easy to access space on your hotkeys that is better used for better melee attacks like cleaves, dire charge, momentum swing, lay waste, ect.

Again, this is just silly, even if you happen to have those other attacks (which many people don't have). If Amey Strike interrupts an attack chain that would be better without it, then perhaps you have a point. That would be a solid reason not to take 4 levels of fvs or cleric w/ some other melee class(es) merely to get Amey Strike.

In any case, let's not forget that we are talking here primarily about battle clerics. It will be up to each player as to how much they want to prioritize healing--and therefore incorporate Amey Strike into their attack chain--which will also determine their epic destiny, for example, Divine Crusader rather than Legendary Dreadnought.

The clincher: Amey Strike does not cost you any turns or sp. It effectively gives you endless healing even when you have no access to shrines.

[savingsoul]

I agree partially. In today's game, spending 32 AP on aura may not be worth it. But...in my opinion having aura and bursts together is what makes a cleric a cleric in DDO. So if I don't take aura, I feel like I have no compelling reason to not just play a paladin.

No other class has access to the Aura, I'll give you that. I'm quite glad that only Clerics have it. However, I've suggested in all cases that you retain the Burst. Only clerics have access to the Burst, and it is directly dependent on cleric levels (even more so than the Aura is). Also, the only other class that has access to Amey Strike is favored soul. I have suggested that you go w/ Amey Strike *and* Burst. Neither of those is accessible to a paladin. You might answer that a paladin could access Amey Strike by taking four levels of favored soul or cleric, but I basically agree with you that Amey Strike alone is not sufficient for a dedicated healer. Moreover, since paladins rely more on temporary buffs, clickies, and special attacks, I agree in that case that Amey Strike is likely to interrupt a more productive attack chain, especially if the pally goes w/ legendary dreadnought.

And honestly, you could take that argument to whatever end you want. We really all have no reason to not just play whatever the #1 build is since the game has gone away from party roles for the most part.

I'm not sure what you mean by the #1 build. If you mean the #1 build in DPS, that build will very, very likely have to forgo self-healing, and will likely need to focus on either melee or ranged but not both. In all cases, specialization will be involved--so that *roles will never go away*. For example, pure DPS will benefit from healing, buffs, and cc by others, and ranged will complement melee.

I really don't think the deep game mechanics have wandered away from specialization/roles. Specialization/roles would still be optimal if people worked together--Old School DDO. Instead, I see a bunch of people trying to be soloist builds and therefore compromising on several things and doing a lousy job of working together when they are in a group because they have forgotten The Old Way.

#1 Soloist Build =/= #1 DPS Build, end of story.

In the end everyone who doesn't play whatever the #1 build is is just playing a flavor build...unless they feel their particular playstyle/skillset would make another build the best in game for them. And either way that wouldn't be a cleric.

Are you saying clerics can't have flavor? I'll have "Higherheals" play a song for you. Besides, if you are again referring to the #1 DPS build--which will not very likely have self-healing and will very likely benefit from buffs by others--then why can't the #1 build be the #1 Healer that complements the #1 DPS?

I don't agree that RS is useless otherwise. The RS tree is solidly better than warpriest in terms of what you get on your way to aura verses what you get on your way to amey strike. Not saying everything is good, there's some junk in there. But to each his own, that's just my opinion.

Well, let's stay on target. The Radiant Servant tree is excellent for dedicated healers that want to rely on casting. However, we're talking about battle clerics.

Again, battle clerics do not rely much on casting heal spells.

It comes down to whether it is worth it to spend an additional 21 ap in the Radiant Servant tree, or spend 21+1=22 ap in Warpriest *on a battle cleric*.

I've already made my case for Amey Strike above, and only Clerics and Favored Souls have access to Amey Strike.

Moreover, only Clerics have access to Burst, and I have suggested that 11 ap into the RS tree are well worth it for Burst (and Extra Turns along the way).

So to facilitate the comparison, here is a breakdown of the specific enhancements that I suggested above (using some text borrowed from the ddowiki):
*Smite Foe
-Activate: Smite your enemy with a melee attack that deals an additional 2[W] damage. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
-Passive: +2 Armor Class
*Resilience of Battle
-Passive: Damage Reduction 5/- and +2 Armor Class
*Sanctuary
-Activate: For 20 seconds, you gain +20 Sacred bonus to Physical Resistance. (Activation Cost: 10 Spell Points. Cooldown: 1 minute)
-Passive: +2 Armor Class
*Optional - War Domain: Blur (for 1 ap)
-Blur is added to your spellbook as a level 2 spell. In addition, you permanently benefit from the effect of the Blur spell.
-Passive: +2 Armor Class
*Divine Might (Rank 3)
-Divine Might: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma Modifier for 120 seconds. (Activation Cost: 15 spell points. Cooldown: 20 seconds)
*Toughness (Rank 3)
-+15 maximum hp.
*Righteous Weapons x 3
-When wielding your religion's favored weapon, it gains +3 to its Enhancement Bonus. I.E., +3 to hit and dmg.
*Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
-+10 Physical Resistance Rating
*Strength (Rank 1)
-+1 to Str.
*Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
-When you strike an enemy with Smite Foe, you and your nearby allies are healed by 1d2 per character level, and benefit from the effects of the Lesser Restoration spell.
-(The heal from Ameliorating Strike is affected by your Positive Spell Power)
Optional - Righteous Weapons x 4 (for 2 ap)
-When wielding your religion's favored weapon, it gains +4 to its Enhancement Bonus. I.E., +4 to hit and dmg.

Summary of passive benefits for 22 ap: +4 to Armor Class, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +3 to hit and damage, +15 hit points, damage reduction 5/-.
Summary of benefits requiring action: Divine Might (+cha mod to str for 120 secs), Smite Foe (+2[W] to dmg), Sanctuary (+20 PRR for 20 secs), Ameliorating Strike (Massive heal burst added to Smite Foe).

(Note: There is also a +15 passive benefit to light and fire spell power. You can capitalize on that in various ways--for example, via Divine Crusader, and/or by going to the top of the Warpriest tree for Divine Vessel.)

Can you show me the same or better benefits from spending 22 ap beyond Burst in the Radiant Servant tree *on a battle cleric*?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Radiant_Servant_enhancements

REFERENCE
http://ddowiki.com/page/Warpriest_enhancements

[Vish]

What this thread is about is how to jack up warpriest
Giving all clerics burst and aura is a major rework of all cleric trees... Needs its own thread

So over in suggestions is another perspective on warpriest
Basically displacement and fire light damage that scales
Would make warpriest kinda magic user like
But it's much better than what stands

Because the trade out is the 4 splash pally for a radiant battlecleric
Get +25 prr/mrr, +20% hp, +6 str, +3 to saves and AC, and +14 to saves for grace
And it works great with divine might
And that's about 22 ap

So to me going warpriest has to beat that.

My experience is that aura And decent dps is a good mix
It doesn't lend to the battlefield view of old schools, but it seems that's what epics are about
Aura is about melee. And to stand in melee means serious defenses.
So a pure cleric can't beat a mc ATM, and what I've been suggesting
Wisdom to hit and damage
Is what is needed to push the clerics to pure.
And do it through warpriest, since that will shore the fav souls.

Ya it's probably op, let the devs worry about the balance
I've tried to be fair, but really
I'd like to play a cleric that's not
Dump statted...

I really think clerics are kinda dead, and people play them in hope, or for nostalgic reasons,
Or really just to get past lives out of the way
Because I run with a pretty fair number of them,
And they are gimp

So let's let the gimp out of the dungeon

[savingsoul]

What this thread is about is how to jack up warpriest
Giving all clerics burst and aura is a major rework of all cleric trees... Needs its own thread

I think giving all trees burst and aura is relevant to this thread b/c that includes giving it to Warpriest--thereby providing it a boost.

At the same time, I completely disagree with the idea. Warpriest already has Amey Strike, which does not require any interruption of melee--perfect! However, I respect the opinion and am glad it is here.

So over in suggestions is another perspective on warpriest
Basically displacement and fire light damage that scales
Would make warpriest kinda magic user like
But it's much better than what stands

I'll have to check that out, but if there is any casting involved it will interrupt melee and go against the grain. For example, the nice thing about divine vessel is that it is passive, incorporated into melee like Amey Strike, and does not require casting a spell. Besides, the passive bonus to fire and light spell power already increments w/ each core. If they are suggesting that there be more things like divine vessel w/ passive fire and/or light damage along the way up the tree, I think that would be a good idea. (The only problem is that it will probably overpower "Highheals", though I'm beginning to think she is already OP'd! )

Because the trade out is the 4 splash pally for a radiant battlecleric
Get +25 prr/mrr, +20% hp, +6 str, +3 to saves and AC, and +14 to saves for grace
And it works great with divine might
And that's about 22 ap

So to me going warpriest has to beat that.

Okay, that's helpful.

Here's a recap on what you can get from 22 ap in Warpriest:
Summary of passive benefits for 22 ap: +4 to Armor Class, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +3 to hit and damage, +15 hit points, damage reduction 5/-.
Summary of benefits requiring action: Divine Might (+cha mod to str for 120 secs), Smite Foe (+2[W] to dmg), Sanctuary (+20 PRR for 20 secs), Ameliorating Strike (Massive heal burst added to Smite Foe).

In terms of passive benefits, that means the following gap in Pally vs. Warpriest:
+25 to prr and mrr rather than merely +10 to prr, +20% hp rather than merely +15 hp, +6 to str vs. +3 to hit and dmg on a favored weapon (which is a wash if you have a favored weapon***), +3 to AC vs. +4 to AC (Warpriest gives you +1!), and +3 to Saves vs. +0 to Saves

I'm going to leave divine grace out of this for now b/c I think it is unique to the Paladin and should remain that way (with o/c the acceptable exception of Pally dilly on a Helf). I'm sure the same reasoning went into why they nerfed DG for pally splashes. I support unique abilities in each class.

Anyway, I've only compared the passive benefits above. When you include the active benefits of Divine Might, Smite Foe, Sanctuary, and especially Amey Strike, the gap closes quite a bit.

It seems to come down to merely two changes:
*Make minor teaks to some passive defenses, most of which already exist in the tree.
***Provide access to more favored weapons while keeping them restricted to religion/race, which is completely consistent w/ the existing lore anyway.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Deities

For example, Warpriest could. . .
*Grant an incremental % boost in hp via each rank of the Toughness enhancement rather than merely 5 hp.
*Grant 6/12/20 to prr and mrr via Wall of Steel rather than merely 3/6/10.
*Grant +1 to saves for each core.

Since the gap is so small when you include active benefits from Warpriest, I don't think all three of these tweaks should be made to Warpriest. That would make it too overpowered--especially if you then go splashing pally w/ it. Indeed, in the current state of affairs, you can already have *both* Warpriest and Sacred Defender or Stalwart Defender or whatever. So I would grant only 1 and maybe, just maybe, two of the three tweaks above.

If that is the best gripe against Warpriest we can come up with, I don't see what all the wailing and gnashing of teeth is about.

To recap: we just need access to more favored weapons--which needs to be done anyway b/c it is consistent w/ lore--along w/ perhaps one or two tweaks to passive benefits.

In the meantime, you can use Scimitars on a(n) (h)elf on a pure cleric for a decent critical profile.

My experience is that aura And decent dps is a good mix
It doesn't lend to the battlefield view of old schools, but it seems that's what epics are about
Aura is about melee. And to stand in melee means serious defenses.
So a pure cleric can't beat a mc ATM, and what I've been suggesting
Wisdom to hit and damage
Is what is needed to push the clerics to pure.
And do it through warpriest, since that will shore the fav souls.

I don't understand how the Aura can be about melee while it stands at the top of the Radiant Servant tree--which otherwise has *very little if anything* to do with melee. Whenever you say that, it seems to back what Axel is saying: give Warpriest access to Aura. Again, I completely and utterly disagree w/ that perspective, but I respect it.

Regarding WIS to hit and dmg, I think Axel put it best:

I wouldn't be for adding WIS to damage. I think it's a nice differentiating quality for melee clerics to be STR based and casters to be WIS based. It makes sense and provides variety in builds. Right now there's 3 distinct build paths for cleric - STR based melee, WIS based caster and CHA based turner. I don't want to see any of those blurred towards a one size fits all build. We lose variety that way.

I really think clerics are kinda dead, and people play them in hope, or for nostalgic reasons,
Or really just to get past lives out of the way
Because I run with a pretty fair number of them,
And they are gimp

So let's let the gimp out of the dungeon

If I remember correctly, you play a cleric as well. Are you suggesting only *they* are all gimp, and *you* are not?

The main problem w/ the cleric comes form the fact that people have forgotten/neglected how to take advantage of dedicated healers. If you are a cleric, that is their fault, not yours.

#1 Soloist Build =/= #1 DPS Build
and
#1 Healer Build complements #1 DPS Build

If perhaps your comments do apply, they only apply to pure clerics, not to lightly multi-classed clerics--the latter are alive and well! Enter "Highheals" . . .

[Hoglum]

I wouldn't be for adding WIS to damage. I think it's a nice differentiating quality for melee clerics to be STR based and casters to be WIS based. It makes sense and provides variety in builds. Right now there's 3 distinct build paths for cleric - STR based melee, WIS based caster and CHA based turner. I don't want to see any of those blurred towards a one size fits all build. We lose variety that way.

This doesn't get the whole point of Cleric.

If you want to melee - Fighter or Paladin.

If you want to cast - Sorcerer, Wizard or Warcock.

Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above. This idea of having to choose "caster cleric" or "melee cleric' is not conducive to what Clerics were designed for in the first place. Even specializing as a caster or melee they don't get even close to the others so they need to get up to speed somehow & the game's already borked beyond recognition with the intelligence to damage, constitution to damage, etc. It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys.

[Vish]

Ok, forgot to add +50% AC on pally splash. Hard to beat

And I'm most über piking gimp of all
Joke is when three clerics in a party all standing around looking at each other, who's gonna do the killing? Lolz. That's almost quest fail by itself...

But to add burst and aura to warpriest

Tree 4
Tier 1 3ap sacred touch whatever
Tier 2 3ap divine presence charisma to wisdom 3 ranks
Tier 3 2ap positive energy burst
Tier 4 3ap positive energy aura

Get rid of inflame stuff, nice idea but aura better
Bring divine presence to tier 2

Leave wisdom to hit/damage in favored weapons tree.

Now if we could get the cores from the other warpriest suggestion, like displacement core 5? And +2 stats on core 6, then warpriest would be a serious loaded tree

Question is, what is tier5 aura in radiant being replaced with?
Axel?

[Vish]

Oh yea,
Giving burst and aura to warpriest will
Give it to favored soul

Is this what we want?

Don't know if they're gonna allow that?

[savingsoul]

This doesn't get the whole point of Cleric.

If you want to melee - Fighter or Paladin.

If you want to cast - Sorcerer, Wizard or Warcock.

Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above. This idea of having to choose "caster cleric" or "melee cleric' is not conducive to what Clerics were designed for in the first place. Even specializing as a caster or melee they don't get even close to the others so they need to get up to speed somehow & the game's already borked beyond recognition with the intelligence to damage, constitution to damage, etc. It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys.

I'm confused by your comment. First you say, "Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above." Then you end with, "It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys." So which is it?

Also, what is wrong with having three minor emphases--in this case, healer, offensive caster, and melee--on one major class? Nearly all classes are like that.

I suppose by "get Clerics back to being Clerics", you mean back to being healers. I'm all for that. However, I think that can already be done with the current set of trees. Maybe, just maybe, Divine Disciple needs some kind of healing option incorporated, though I'm not sure how to do that. In any case, offensive casting clerics definitely get benefits to healing from Exalted Angel. Moreover, just like with Warpriest, someone w/ Divine Disciple as main can get Burst from RS for only 11 ap.

I'm pretty happy with the current state of affairs and not sure what all the griping is all about beyond the Warpriest tree--and even that, as I've said, just needs the natural progression of more favored weapons and perhaps a minor tweak on passive benefits.

[savingsoul]

Oh yea,
Giving burst and aura to warpriest will
Give it to favored soul

Is this what we want?

Don't know if they're gonna allow that?

Exactly. The point is to retain Clerics as the best healing class--that is their primary specialization, that is their role. That's another reason why I'm against putting aura and burst in Warpriest.

Putting aura and burst in every tree--or merely adding them to Warpriest--would undermine not only the three minor emphases within the cleric class, it would undermine the major emphasis of the cleric class--i.e. healing--altogether as well. It would destroy build variety and further cave in to the mono-culture of confused soloist-in-group builds that is darkening all of DDO.

[Hoglum]

I'm confused by your comment. First you say, "Cleric is supposed to do both but not quite as good as the specialists in the examples above." Then you end with, "It's time to get Clerics back to being Clerics and not pseudo wizards or pallys." So which is it?

My statements don't conflict with each other. Clerics should not be caster only or melee only. They should do both. If you build a cleric to only melee they are a pseudo fighter. If you build a cleric to only cast they are pseudo Wizard. Currently, DDO makes it extremely difficult for a Cleric to both melee and cast, which is what they should be doing.

I don't mind if someone wants to build clerics that way. Let them, but it's not how clerics are supposed to be in D&D. They should be good, but not the best, at both fighting and casting at the same time. That is difficult in the current environment.

And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built.

[savingsoul]

My statements don't conflict with each other. Clerics should not be caster only or melee only. They should do both. If you build a cleric to only melee they are a pseudo fighter. If you build a cleric to only cast they are pseudo Wizard. Currently, DDO makes it extremely difficult for a Cleric to both melee and cast, which is what they should be doing.

I don't mind if someone wants to build clerics that way. Let them, but it's not how clerics are supposed to be in D&D. They should be good, but not the best, at both fighting and casting at the same time. That is difficult in the current environment.

And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built.

It's true that if you go way back into D&D history, the cleric originally started as a hybrid of "Fighting-Men" and "Magic-Users". I can respect that if you are trying to get back to the roots of D&D.

It seems kind of weird and comical though in light of your dis on healing: it's like you are saying, "Clerics shouldn't be pseudo-fighters or pseudo-wizards, they should be Pseudo-Fighter/Wizards!"

In any case, this is DDO, and DDO began pretty much with D&D 3.5, later incorporating elements of 4.

-----
"Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition

The cleric's power source remains divine, and they fill the role of Leader. [***]Their powers (called prayers) are mainly concerned with healing, protection and support[***]; however, like most 4th edition classes, they gain the standard number of attack powers based on their level, and like all 4th edition classes, their attack powers generally include damage-dealing capabilities. Like Wizards, Clerics gain Ritual Caster as a bonus feat.

[***]The Player's Handbook presents two Cleric builds, Battle Cleric, which focuses on offense, melee combat and Strength-based prayers, and Devoted Cleric, focusing on support, ranged combat and Wisdom-based prayers, many of the cleric's Strength and Wisdom based prayers have secondary effects related to Charisma.[***]"
-----

Therefore, by the time you get to D&D 3.5 & 4--and DDO--there is little reason to dis on a "healbot", if someone in the cleric class chooses that path.

Indeed, someone might say that dissing on "healbots" given the mechanics of DDO is azz backwards!

Especially if you put it this way: "And, no, I don't mean get back to being healer. Healbot is absolutely not a D&D thing. It's a sick twisted MMO/WOW BS trash concept that people should forget all about and try to build real clerics they way they were meant to be built."

Consider, for example, the following question: Why do clerics in DDO get only *heal* spells automatically in their spell book via spontaneous casting--and no other?

Of course, a "healbot" is at the extreme end of merely one possibility w/in the cleric class, but my opinion is that, per D&D 4th Edition, "healing, protection and support" should remain priorities pretty much across the board on a cleric--though I will always welcome getting clever w/ the cleric class for the sake of flavor.

In any case, people, if you do not want a role of healing, protection, and support, please stop trying to destroy the cleric class and kindly move on to (an)other class(es) and another forum. Thank you!

REFERENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric...s_%26_Dragons)

[savingsoul]

And I'm most über piking gimp of all
Joke is when three clerics in a party all standing around looking at each other, who's gonna do the killing? Lolz. That's almost quest fail by itself...

I don't mean to be harsh, but I have Divine Crusader currently active as my ED, so live with it or die!

However, the above statement can only mean one or two things.

Either:
(1) You don't know how to build a battle and/or offensive casting cleric.
(2) You don't understand roles and the party dynamics that go along with them.

Regarding #1, Consider three clerics w/ Axel's THF Battle Cleric build. Would they stand around looking at each other wondering who is going to do the killing? This is especially true if that build is as good at soloing as people make it out to be.

If you were referring only to pure clerics, then disregard the above, though I still think a decent battle cleric can be made on a pure cleric as well--for example, via h/elf w/ Scimitars taking Divine Crusader as the ED.

Regarding #2, if there are only three clerics in a party that focus predominantly on healing, protection, and support, then the problem is not the builds. It's simply this: *the party is unbalanced*.

It makes me sad when I have to explain that to someone. It really goes to the root of all the evil and darkness that has overtaken DDO, sometimes consciously, other times unconsciously.

A few days ago, someone actually denied my request to join their party after explaining via a tell to me that they already had a healer.

Did this upset me? Absolutely not.

Rather, I said out loud: Praise be to the Goddess!

For this meant that there was at least *someone* out there who still understood party dynamics. Indeed, being denied from joining a party because your role was already fulfilled was quite common back in the day -- the day before the darkening. At the same time, it really didn't matter because there were always more parties to join, since the game, as a whole and aware of wholeness, was thriving. You--especially if you were a healer--were needed elsewhere.

I then explained to them that I was a battle cleric w/ fairly decent dps.

So they invited me into the party, and I accepted.

Working together, mindful of our roles, we killed it.

[Vish]

Haha u didn't get the joke

I run two battleclerics
Same builds basically, one thf, one twf
And then in comes a warlock and I realize I'm left taking down the last few hp of trash
But still providing a healing aura! Whoopee everything is dead before it damaged us... See?

But really I can cleric ona warlock just as good basically
And kill stuff
It's called cocoon

That's where clerics are too me
The role isn't warranted in epic or really legendary
Everyone self heals

That's kinda death of cleric class...
Because first thing I look for when red bars drop is,
Who covers their own ass?
Mostly everyone, but sometimes I got to cover
Rogues and barbs, and monks seem squishy too

I'm old school
Last I played was lvl 16 in the shroud
Fight against Harry had to be measured
Had to conserve mana and cycle masses with other clerics

Now I'm back in 9 months and clerics aren't needed.
Haven't cast a mass yet...
Don't need roles in solo play, just dps
There aren't real big grouped fights, yea Harry quickly again and the book
But the aura covers that, and most of the time ppl just die, so only rezzing

Don't get me wrong, i still see lots clerics in guilds
But I also see they not good healers, like they've never really had to work it as a cleric
Mostly a rezzer
Well that's 15sp in US
Even took that away
And everybody scrolls, so...

So my feelings are something has to be done to bring clerics back
Viola wisdom conversion

[savingsoul]

Regarding your battle cleric build, you wrote . . .

So I opted out max dps, which really, you're there to add and give melees max dps opportunity. And make them feel safe. Dps matters more if you're soloing. Which I can but don't enjoy. But it is a good test.
This is a force multiplier build. It covers the team.

DPS does matter if you are soloing, but so do defense and self-sufficiency (e.g. self-buffs and self-healing), and neither of those things necessarily mean max DPS (on the single build/character)--especially when that build/character is placed in a group dynamic where they have a dedicated healer.

So the flip side of your insight above is that ***melees, ranged, and offensive casters have the opportunity to max dps when they can rely on a dedicated healer--and perhaps rely on other forms of support in appropriate situations via things like cc, tanking (which can also be a form of cc) & buffs--rather than compromise their build and/or style-of-play too much with concerns over defense and self-sufficiency***.

With both sides of the coin, you have two of the key insights of The Old Way.

You wrote that less than a month ago. But I fear now that you are struggling with the darkness.

However, there is grace, there is hope . . .

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Battle-Clerics
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...cs-w-Scimitars

As far as the warlock you mention goes, they are either op'd or they need to be in a more challenging quest where they do require support. That also goes for other builds/chars who run amok killing everything w/o any need for back-up. Why are these people even running in groups?

I'm also against op'd things like cocoon that undermine the role of the cleric (though cocoon is weaker if you don't have empower heal, which requires a splash in a healing class; also, the HOT from cocoon only lasts as long as the +150 hp, which isn't very long in Epic Elite or Legendary content). Cocoon should absolutely not be in the first tier of Primal Avatar -- if anywhere. It's simply ridiculous to have healing that powerful available on the first tier, and so easily twisted into any build. Likewise, Sacred Ground should be bumped up to the fourth tier of Divine Crusader--or, perhaps even better, moved to the natives so it can't be twisted.

I understand your frustration. As part of the creeping darkness there has come the creeping boredom you get when you find yourself piking not by choice but as a result of the fact that the quest is just way too easy for one or more people in the party.

Indeed, since questing in most cases has become so easy in DDO these days (though praise be for Search and Rescue!), people should really be questing further above their level and tapping into The Old Way rather than simply breezing though quests w/ little or no effort or thought. If they reach a peak at Legendary Elite and they are still able to run amok without any need for support, then obviously either their build is op'd and needs to be nerfed or DDO simply hasn't made the most difficult kind of quest--along w/ many others--difficult enough.

[savingsoul]

Forgive me for the slight thread necro. Hard to believe it's been two months since this thread was active.

However, I was recently thinking about this discussion and a possible solution popped up:
Keep the Positive Energy Aura in the Radiant Servant Tree, but move it from the fifth tier to the fourth.

It should probably be even more dependent on cleric levels than it already is, although the current dependency would probably be okay, so being on the four tier won't encourage anyone to further undermine the cleric by m/c four levels of cleric just to get the aura.

For the fifth tier enhancement to replace it, the cleric should have an ability to make a mass heal over time like Sustaining Song or Healing Spring, but somehow in style that is unique to the cleric. It should also be dependent on cleric levels. This would deal better w/ quests that do require scattered parties and dramatically help to supplement spot healing that drains sp.

(I don't remember anyone mentioning this possibility; forgive me if someone already did.)

Moving the aura to the fourth tier of RS would complement any updates to strengthen the fifth tier of the Warpriest Tree mainly for melee defense, since you could take fifth tier enhancements in Warpriest alongside the fourth tier in Radiant Servant.

It would also dramatically improve the healing capability of offensive casting clerics who use the fifth tier of Divine Disciple.

h/t Axel

This probably requires it's own thread, so I've posted in Suggestions. Best to reply there.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...adiant-Servant

[Vish]

Well, you need an uber tier5.?*
Something to compliment aura.

I already proposed new fav soul tree with tier5 raise dead aura.
And heal amp adds.
Kinda like to keep that tandem synergy alive.

I'm still for wisdom conversion on favored weapon line.
So that pretty ops the fighting cleric. ESP if you add displacement and extra stats for core6

I don't know what you would forgo tier5 radiant. Maybe throw enlarge into the mix and go double wide.
There is mass Rez but I put that into silver flame proposal.

Depends what they do to the favored soul.
If they pass warpriest or not. And semi buff clerics.
God, something has to be done.
I want to play a pure wisdom cleric that kicks ass and can do support.?*

What tilomere said about max cleric casting capacity and scaling into epic. Sunbolt ftw. Whoops put that in fav soul too.
So keep the souls the nuker divines and let clerics be the fighting monsters.
Both can add heals and together their awesome combination.

So I don't have any fresh perspective on what would be better than aura.
Unless you increased its base abilities.

[Enoach]

I actually think sharing War Priest with FvS to give them access to 3 trees was a mistake. The reason is because I felt the War Priest "burst" abilities should have been based off "Turn Undead" and not Spell Points. When they added it to FvS they had to change Divine Might and other abilities to Spell Points meaning abilities like Inflame had to have a Timer/Uses added to them when all of the abilities should have been tied to the same limitation - Number of Turn available. Let the Cleric pick which one to use the Turns on giving them more flexibility that would not dip into their spell point pool.

-----
In my opinion for me the best cleric is a hybrid Melee/Range and Caster. Sure if you measure just one aspect of Melee vs Melee or Range vs Range or Caster vs Caster of a non-cleric they will be behind, but if you sum all the parts they will be very close if not equal or even ahead depending on the situation.

For me I currently use War Priest to enhance my melee - I have also stayed away from Radiant instead using the Negative energy sla's of the other tree, combined with my spell power for negative energy I can inflict a lot of pain to creatures effected by this, but also have options to do well against those that are immune.

My wish is that they would remove War Priest from FVS. Give them their own tree and then revamp WP to use Turn Undead and remove some of the Crazy cool down and separate charge limitations they added because the abilities were geared towards Spell Points.

[Hoglum]

Why do clerics in DDO get only *heal* spells automatically in their spell book via spontaneous casting--and no other?



REFERENCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleric...s_%26_Dragons)

The answer is because nobody wanted to play healbots. In early D&D you had to load spells and to have some healing on a cleric you could end up loading nothing but healing spells and not be able to cast otherwise. Healing is important, so don't get me wrong. However, in 1st & 2nd editions there was no spontaneous casting so when you wanted to heal you better have some spells loaded.

Here's an excerpt from the link you posted: "Spontaneous casting encourages clerics to function the way adventures often require them to, as steady sources of healing (or damage), but allows them to prepare a full variety of spells in case not all that direct power is needed."

The spontaneous casting allows Clerics to have healing ready an any time without using up slots to "load" such spells. Thus, having spontaneous casting was design specifically to keep Clerics from having to be simply "healers".

Also, 4th edition sucked and didn't go over well. DDO was based on 3.5 which was much cooler. Everyone went to Pathfinder when D&D4 came out then D&D5 seems to have moved back to the roots which made the game great.