Cleric pass : Warpriest tree

[Vish]

How about

Tier 4: Crusade
Wisdom to damage


Everything else warpriest: doubled.

[Vish]

Tier 5: Jihad
Wisdom to hit

Both are 2 ap.

[Grailhawk]

If you are suggesting Wis to hit and damage in place of Strength it should not be a T4 or T5 it should be in Core 1 or 3 (maybe 6).

If you are suggesting +Wis to Hit and Damage that's a good T5.

Don't split them up like you have unless your doing it in the core like how Assassin lets rogues use Dex.

[Vish]

Well, my approach was to offer something to clerics (and fav soul) that would focus on their primary stat.
I believe wisdom to dam/hit should also be offered to Druid and monk.

But primarily cleric melee is str/cha, with DM being the main add. I would rather it be offered in the tier than the core, as that would force clerics to be wisdom only fighters, and DM and str cha would become dump stats. I think that is still a viable strategy with MC, especially paladin. And would like that route to remain open.
And I think the core blur and haste are good, but the five is meh, and should be much better. Especially if going pure cleric and core 5. Should be as good as splashing pally and going sacred d.

But I want wisdom to be an alternative to str/cha, and potentially much better. Just good synergy.

This could open up cleric MC possibilities with monk and ranger.

But with wis to hit at tier 5, you're competing with losing the radiant aura, which is the backbone of a melee cleric. So it has to be something better than aura. If you go tier 5 core 5 warpriest, you should have an equivalent fighter. With heals. And bursts.

Maybe divine might can be cha to wis?
Or maybe that should be divine presence?

[axel15810]

I wouldn't be for adding WIS to damage. I think it's a nice differentiating quality for melee clerics to be STR based and casters to be WIS based. It makes sense and provides variety in builds. Right now there's 3 distinct build paths for cleric - STR based melee, WIS based caster and CHA based turner. I don't want to see any of those blurred towards a one size fits all build. We lose variety that way.

Rather, I'd like to see all 3 build types have their own cleric tree and all be viable and remain differentiated. And instead of a dedicated healing tree, all clerics should get a lot of that stuff either via cores that mirror each other (burst could be included in core 3 for every tree, aura could be included in core 4 for every tree, ect.), or perhaps some inherently as they level up via special class feats. However the devs do it, getting full cleric healing abilities via aura and bursts should not require a 32 AP investment. Healing should be inherent to the class, especially considering how drastically the healing role has been proxy nerfed over the past several years.

As for Warpriest, its such a mess. There's so many issues with it to the point where I wouldn't mind it being trashed and being completely redone, if dev time permits. There's so many outdated concepts and flawed designs/abilities that I'm not convinced the tree as a whole can be properly fixed through buffs.

[Enoach]

I understand that some don't like this tree, but I actually like this tree and it plays well with my Generalist Cleric.

However, this might be because I don't see the Aura as a Must Have. I find the extra damage as well as the percent chance that a caster gets knocked down if they cast on me.

For me the enhancements that need tuning:

Sanctuary - It lasts 20 seconds and it costs SP for only +20 PRR.
I think this would be better if it was more like the Sanctuary Spell (Which should be in the game) and require a Will Save or the Attacker can't attack the Warded Cleric (Should be self only). It should last 6 seconds per Cleric Level - And Break if the Warded Cleric Makes an Attack (AoE attacks/spells are not subject)

Implacable Foe - 18 seconds with 5 minute cooldown
I like this ability but 18 seconds every 5 minutes. Even with a 10% melee boost and +100 Temp HP refreshed every 3 seconds. The amount of time it lasts vs the cooldown is off. This ability needs to be available more often even if the Temp HP or refresh rate gets adjust to less temp HP or more time between the refresh.

Sacred Touch - needs to be triggered on more than just spells. It needs to be part of other positive energy effects such as Ameliorating Strike and even energy burst/aura.

Inflame - Limited number of uses. The bonuses are small, but can be very helpful. But limiting the number of uses to 5 (6 with ship buffs) per shrine gives only a total of 3 minutes of effect. If you are going to limit the number of uses then its cooldown should not be that much more than its duration. So instead of 1 minute maybe 40 Seconds. That keeps it from being a 3 minute spam. Possibly even change to not be tiered on effect but each additional Rank adds an additional use and it is a +4 AC/Attk/Dmg - Cost 2 AP. Change the Add-Ons Energy Absorption and Saving Throws to 2AP single Tier

Divine Power - I like all the other Tier 5s and I get why this is here but it is no better than the spell and the BaB gain is less then Tensor's but it also doesn't have the downsides.

Now why I don't think Wisdom to Attk/dmg is not needed for a cleric is that this would open up a very powerful melee + caster as there would be very little downside. Tensor's reduces the DCs and increases the cooldown of spells so this makes it tougher to be an Intelligence based Melee and have high DC casting abilities. So I'm for keeping the abilities to Strength for Melee Cleric.

[Vish]

Wisdom to dam/hit isn't in the game

So it would be a game changer.
Rise of the clerics

And we could have an update with some undead in it. At legendary.

And yes it would op. why not?
Then we could have cleric raids instead of warlocks.

But really. I'm looking to introduce wis conversion into a dead tree and make pure clerics viable melee.
Dump stat. Omg.

The issue is the bursts and aura. Really most needed for melee. if you make this core to cleric then it changes whole dynamic. But as is warpriest has to compete with radiant, and you'll never see tier 5 anyway. So make it worthwhile. If you have to lose your aura what's to gain?

I see only 2 kinds of cleric. Radiant and divine. The radiants are all usual axel builds, and the divines are all pure. One spams slas and the other glows and stands in the middle of fights.
And I don't see the spammers healing, but bursting sometimes. Though they do good damage.
But the melee strength is its aura, only good at close quarters. And it makes you a tank.

I would just like to see a revamp and clerics getting some godly luv.
Wisdom to damage at tier 4 and then lose the aura for to hit. And maybe introduce new builds with cleric MC possibilities.

Or really. A new patron tree.
The silver flame?

With wisdom to hit/dam

[Enoach]

Additionally, I think a big game changer would be to add more weapons to choose from. And that can even mean more divine choices even bringing in more racial specific deity choices.

[Ikeas]

If warpriest gains WIS to attack/damage before monks, there will be riot.

[Vish]

If warpriest gains WIS to attack/damage before monks, there will be riot.

Well, I just saw over in monk suggested new trees,
No wisdom to hit/dam...

You could always MC monk with cleric,

Or somebody needs to rework monk with it figured in.

Or maybe that second patron isn't looking too bad now... (one size fits all!)

[Vish]

Revised warpriest
As an offering to the new favored soul revamp, or third tree

Warpriest
2ap Tier 2 favored weapons. Addition wisdom to hit
2ap Tier 3 favored weapons. Addition wisdom to damage
3ap Tier 4 favored weapons. Addition. Charisma to wisdom. Divine presence.
3 ranks. 21/18/15 sp. 60/90/120 sec duration. 20 sec cooldown.


This would significantly buff fighting pures.
And allow splash either class for 12ap wis to hit/dam

[axel15810]

Revised warpriest
As an offering to the new favored soul revamp, or third tree

Warpriest
2ap Tier 2 favored weapons. Addition wisdom to hit
2ap Tier 3 favored weapons. Addition wisdom to damage
3ap Tier 4 favored weapons. Addition. Charisma to wisdom. Divine presence.
3 ranks. 21/18/15 sp. 60/90/120 sec duration. 20 sec cooldown.


This would significantly buff fighting pures.
And allow splash either class for 12ap wis to hit/dam

It would also really hurt build diversity, since I assume this would make STR and CHA focused clerics obsolete, funneling 2 of the 3 common cleric build types into a single one size fits all build. I really don't like this idea and wouldn't be for it if it does that. I'd prefer a different approach to a revamp that would keep build diversity in tact while still buffing the trees. And I'd worry about balance concerns for that reason. Every cleric shouldn't be able to have high DCs and have max melee capabilities. Every cleric shouldn't be good at everything.

[Enoach]

It would also really hurt build diversity, since I assume this would make STR and CHA focused clerics obsolete, funneling 2 of the 3 common cleric build types into a single one size fits all build. I really don't like this idea and wouldn't be for it if it does that. I'd prefer a different approach to a revamp that would keep build diversity in tact while still buffing the trees. And I'd worry about balance concerns for that reason. Every cleric shouldn't be able to have high DCs and have max melee capabilities. Every cleric shouldn't be good at everything.

I think this depends on if it is equal/better/worse than the Divine Might route with cost/benefits.

On the Arcane Side (Wizard/Artificer) we do have the Intelligence to hit/damage setup with the equalizer being BaB, which through Tensor's can be improved but also comes with drawbacks to DC casting. The Divine Power of the Divine class improves the BaB of the Cleric/FvS but does not have the drawbacks that using Tensor's might have. This does give a benefit to being a Wisdom based Cleric as you can have the BaB of a full melee without the drawbacks.

I would like to see this fleshed out more.

I still think more Weapon options for Favored Weapon would be a very large improvement to the Divine Melee.

[Vish]

It would also really hurt build diversity, since I assume this would make STR and CHA focused clerics obsolete, funneling 2 of the 3 common cleric build types into a single one size fits all build. I really don't like this idea and wouldn't be for it if it does that. I'd prefer a different approach to a revamp that would keep build diversity in tact while still buffing the trees. And I'd worry about balance concerns for that reason. Every cleric shouldn't be able to have high DCs and have max melee capabilities. Every cleric shouldn't be good at everything.

Axel
I usually play devils advocate
But why can't clerics be good at everything??*
See warlock
It's the rise of the clerics
The silver flame invasion

And what would it really change?
From three stats str wis cha to two wis cha
There is harpers. Min max on one stat
I've introduced the idea of wisdom to hit/dam?*
Because its whats missing
And probably wouldn't balance as much as throw the balance to clerics
If it isn't brought in on other lines (see silver flame patron), it would open the doors
For monk and ranger builds. 12ap. Pretty cheap /3 build. Would wow monks and make killer aa.
The paladins would still be str cha, but there would prob be some strange wis builds. No more pally splash tho, got that covered on their own ground. Pure clerics and souls would rock.
The Druids could see splashes. Might make a werewolf build.

As usual, you have to spend ap in the tree to open it. Makes warpriest worthwhile now. And you could build a pure cleric that both can melee and spell. That would be a welcome change.?*

So it would buff directly the two divines, and prob op monks and aa, but that comes at the cost of a splash. And the games going pure.
So this is about bringing in a fresh perspective
And resurrecting
A dead class.

Stop thinking splash and start seeing pure

I'm fighting for the divines. ESP clerics
Balance?
I can do everything my cleric does on a warlock. Cocoon for heal, us Rez, and I do massive dps. On a cleric, suck dps and I have to splash to do it, and buff myself all the time. Just for an aura that no one appreciates. Why? Because its all caster and ranged and melee get left out.
We've got to bring the divines up to the warlock.
So let them be one stat wonders. They'll still be meh fighters. But with radiants and disciples now Theyll be ABLE to melee. Easy button.

Ya, this is really needed to tip the scales back

Monks and clerics for endgame?

[Doutrinador]

Axel
I usually play devils advocate
But why can't clerics be good at everything??*
See warlock
It's the rise of the clerics
The silver flame invasion

And what would it really change?
From three stats str wis cha to two wis cha
There is harpers. Min max on one stat
I've introduced the idea of wisdom to hit/dam?*
Because its whats missing
And probably wouldn't balance as much as throw the balance to clerics
If it isn't brought in on other lines (see silver flame patron), it would open the doors
For monk and ranger builds. 12ap. Pretty cheap /3 build. Would wow monks and make killer aa.
The paladins would still be str cha, but there would prob be some strange wis builds. No more pally splash tho, got that covered on their own ground. Pure clerics and souls would rock.
The Druids could see splashes. Might make a werewolf build.

As usual, you have to spend ap in the tree to open it. Makes warpriest worthwhile now. And you could build a pure cleric that both can melee and spell. That would be a welcome change.?*

So it would buff directly the two divines, and prob op monks and aa, but that comes at the cost of a splash. And the games going pure.
So this is about bringing in a fresh perspective
And resurrecting
A dead class.

Stop thinking splash and start seeing pure

I'm fighting for the divines. ESP clerics
Balance?
I can do everything my cleric does on a warlock. Cocoon for heal, us Rez, and I do massive dps. On a cleric, suck dps and I have to splash to do it, and buff myself all the time. Just for an aura that no one appreciates. Why? Because its all caster and ranged and melee get left out.
We've got to bring the divines up to the warlock.
So let them be one stat wonders. They'll still be meh fighters. But with radiants and disciples now Theyll be ABLE to melee. Easy button.

Ya, this is really needed to tip the scales back

Monks and clerics for endgame?

You can use wis to damage with flame blades (druid active past life).

[Vish]

You can use wis to damage with flame blades (druid active past life).

Yes! That is the one specific instance of wis to dam. Not too useful is it?

I am opening this up to splash /2 or /3 from either cleric or fvs.
And in the silver patron it is open to all classes for 12 ap.

[axel15810]

Axel
I usually play devils advocate
But why can't clerics be good at everything??*
See warlock
It's the rise of the clerics
The silver flame invasion

And what would it really change?
From three stats str wis cha to two wis cha
There is harpers. Min max on one stat
I've introduced the idea of wisdom to hit/dam?*
Because its whats missing
And probably wouldn't balance as much as throw the balance to clerics
If it isn't brought in on other lines (see silver flame patron), it would open the doors
For monk and ranger builds. 12ap. Pretty cheap /3 build. Would wow monks and make killer aa.
The paladins would still be str cha, but there would prob be some strange wis builds. No more pally splash tho, got that covered on their own ground. Pure clerics and souls would rock.
The Druids could see splashes. Might make a werewolf build.

As usual, you have to spend ap in the tree to open it. Makes warpriest worthwhile now. And you could build a pure cleric that both can melee and spell. That would be a welcome change.?*

So it would buff directly the two divines, and prob op monks and aa, but that comes at the cost of a splash. And the games going pure.
So this is about bringing in a fresh perspective
And resurrecting
A dead class.

Stop thinking splash and start seeing pure

I'm fighting for the divines. ESP clerics
Balance?
I can do everything my cleric does on a warlock. Cocoon for heal, us Rez, and I do massive dps. On a cleric, suck dps and I have to splash to do it, and buff myself all the time. Just for an aura that no one appreciates. Why? Because its all caster and ranged and melee get left out.
We've got to bring the divines up to the warlock.
So let them be one stat wonders. They'll still be meh fighters. But with radiants and disciples now Theyll be ABLE to melee. Easy button.

Ya, this is really needed to tip the scales back

Monks and clerics for endgame?

I don't agree with the argument that just because X class has this and that, clerics should also. The standard of balance should not be the best class. I don't play a warlock so I can't say for sure, but from what I've heard and seen in game from warlock players they need more adjustments. I already gave my opinion on why I'm not a fan of clerics having everything in my earlier posts in this thread.

As far as the idea of pure becoming the optimal build for a battle cleric - I would have no problems with that provided that there were plenty of other viable splash alternatives to give us build variety. Ideally, both splashed melee clerics and pure melee clerics would be on the same level powerwise but have equal but different advantages and disadvantages that cater to different playstyles and preferences.

Yes! That is the one specific instance of wis to dam. Not too useful is it?

I am opening this up to splash /2 or /3 from either cleric or fvs.
And in the silver patron it is open to all classes for 12 ap.

There's also the Forgotten Light weapon from High Road which is WIS to damage. But the DPS is of course poor.

[Jetrule]

I have to side with those that see wisdom as a damage melee stat as being over powered. Unless it was a divine might style buff. More because of monk than any other reason. I could go for favored weapons wis to damage except long bow. There is a whole tree already buffing bows and incorporating wisdom d.c. and it wouldn't be fair to exclude it based on the grounds of crazy aa dcs and dps on a arcane archer.

If there were a divine might wisdom to damage buff I think it would best go in a third druid tree or a monk pass to be honest. There is more D&D lore wise to justify that.

Warpriest in my opinion needs to focus on buffing up the religions favored weapon. Adding on hit alignment or light or light and fire damage that scales with spell power, like a arcane archers imbued arrows (yet one that wont stack with imbue arrows) seems to me the best route. Combined with a tier 4 or 5, or core 12 that enhances the crit ranges like swashbuckler does. Except with favored weapons instead of light finesable weapons.

[savingsoul]

I think Ameliorating Strike from the Warpriest tree is awesome.

Some people complain that it is not as reliable as the positive energy burst from Radiant Servant, because you have to hit something, so you should pass on it.

However, you can have aura, burst, *and* ameliorating strike.

You have to hit things anyway if you are a battle cleric, so why not get some massive heals in w/ +2[W] dmg along the way -- all without interrupting your melee?

Plus, Ameliorating Strike is based on your character level rather than your cleric levels, which is awesome in its own right, but goes especially well with multi-classing.

Here is how you can get Ameliorating Strike w/ few complaints:

Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sanctuary (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - War Domain: Blur (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Righteous Weapons (Rank 1)

Is there anything in there you don't want?

Sanctuary is slow on the uptake and rather short, but it only costs you 1 ap on the way to all those other benefits.

Actually, I don't even think you need the fourth Righteous Weapons or War Domain: Blur to reach Ameliorating Strike. However, War Domain: Blur is pretty nice for only 1 ap. Some people overlook that it provides a *permanent blur effect* along w/ giving you access to the blur spell, which means that you don't need that on an item (such as your green steel, so you can take concordant opposition instead). Also, if you are going w/ a favored weapon and aiming for Ameliorating Strike, you might as well take the fourth Righteous Weapons.

So how do you get a decent favored weapon for Righteous Weapons?

You could go w/ Scimitars on an elf.

Even better, though, you can go w/ Short Sword on a Drow and take 3 levels of Bard for Swashbuckler . . .

***The improved critical profile and enhancement from Swashbuckler alone make the Short Sword better than a Khopesh!

However, since the Short Sword is a favored and racial weapon, you can also tap into the Righteous Weapon (Warpriest) and racial weapon (Drow) enhancements for an additional +8 to hit and damage (+5 from Righteous Weapons and Wrathful Weapons [Warpriest], and +3 from Xen'drik Weapon Training [Drow]).

Can't do that w/ a Khopesh.***

Click on the little >> after savingsoul in the quote above for further details.

[axel15810]

I think Ameliorating Strike from the Warpriest tree is awesome.

Some people complain that it is not as reliable as the positive energy burst from Radiant Servant, because you have to hit something, so you should pass on it.

However, you can have aura, burst, *and* ameliorating strike.

You have to hit things anyway if you are a battle cleric, so why not get some massive heals in w/ +1[W] dmg along the way -- all without interrupting your melee?

Plus, Ameliorating Strike is based on your character level rather than your cleric levels, which is awesome in its own right, but goes especially well with multi-classing.

Here is how you can get Ameliorating Strike w/ few complaints:



Is there anything in there you don't want?

Sanctuary is slow on the uptake and rather short, but it only costs you 1 ap on the way to all those other benefits.

Actually, I don't even think you need the fourth Righteous Weapons or War Domain: Blur to reach Ameliorating Strike. However, War Domain: Blur is pretty nice for only 1 ap. Some people overlook that it provides a *permanent blur effect* along w/ giving you access to the blur spell, which means that you don't need that on an item [such as your green steel, so you can take concordant opposition instead]. Also, if you are going w/ a favored weapon and aiming from Ameliorating Strike, you might as well take the fourth Righteous Weapons.

So how do you get a decent favored weapon for Righteous Weapons?

You could go w/ Scimitars on a Helf w/ a Pally dilly.

Even better, though, you can go w/ Short Sword on a Drow and take 3 levels of Bard for Swashbuckler . . .



Click on the little >> after savingsoul in the quote above for further details.

Like you said, you would have burst, aura and amey strike. Yes you can have all 3, but that comes at a cost of losing out on other enhancements. The benefits of having all 3 are not worth the opportunity cost of not having those points to spend elsewhere. So yeah, around half of those things either I don't want or I'd get more out of my points from spending them elsewhere. It's not that many of them are "bad" perse, it's just you get more for your points out of other trees.

Thing is there really is only a very marginal additional benefit to having aemy strike if you have radiant bursts. Aura makes it even moreso. You just overheal with it the vast majority of the time, and it has way too many restrictions for it to go off not to mention nearly triple the cooldown of burst. And the animation isn't exactly fast, meanwhile you can throw out a much more reliable quickened burst and only lose a swing to two. The DPS loss difference between the two is really marginal. It also takes up valuable easy to access space on your hotkeys that is better used for better melee attacks like cleaves, dire charge, momentum swing, lay waste, ect.

It's really in my opinion only viable as a self-healing tool for other classes who want to splash 4 divine levels for it. And even then it's costly. Amey strike is just too unreliable to be depended on for party healing.

Personally I think that ability needs to either be converted into a debuff focus or removed from warpriest entirely and replaced when they redo it. I see what they were going for with amey strike, they were giving those clerics who don't take aura and/or bursts something to replace it with. And it's better for favored souls as they don't have bursts or aura. Not all that much better though. But it's better if all clerics had access to aura and bursts...AKA make them tier 3 and tier 4.