Please stop using an absurd number of mobs in every quest

[JOTMON]

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

[Enoach]

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

[JOTMON]

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

This is where creative thinking comes into play..
puzzles that drops the mobs into a pit, or activates a trap on the mobs instead of having to melee them directly. opens the gates to the unfed hounds that attacks them instead of us...
runes/levers/secret doors to bypass or lock mobs down...
alternative pathways, secret keys to open doors instead of having to beatfest down a hallway to go around the door.
freeing prisoners that attack the mobs...
items that can be utilized by certain pools of classes to open access to otherwise inaccessible areas..

...bring more bypass skills to the class not the player ..
Runes that bypass sections of puzzles based on certain stats.. barbarian cant figure out the rune.. hes a barbarian... so has to do the puzzle manually.. but the aligned class realizes its a bypass switch and can solve a whole section of the puzzle with the rune..
rusty grate doorway.. rawr str smash... or hang on... theres a spot to cast grease.... and next to the old rusty grate is a bypass trapped secret door..hey a fellow gnome made this bypass door..might be able to disable this trap without a rogue...
alternatives to rogues.. ranger (or class with high spot skill) can see a worn path down the trapped hallway ..says step where I step....
.. alternative paths if you do not have the ideal class to solve the specific puzzle.. has been an issue in quests like Tempest spine.. don't have INT/door opener/STR.. its an issue.. let us go a longer alternative route to get back to the same end result...

many of these have been used in old quests.. Haunted Halls was a great (sort of recent) one..

would prefer to see more quests setup so that a balanced party has alternatives to just pure brute dps bashdown..

bring this back to a game of brains, not just buttonmash brawn.

[Qhualor]

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

I recommend listening to the DDO Players news that was on last night with Knockback. Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

[Robbenklopper]

... And really, kobolds again? ...

Omg! Is this the truth? Kobolds? We are already Dungeons&Kobolds Online. Omg omg ... i´m so really really sick of them, kobolds!

Dear Devs, please stop that **** with kobolds!

[odheon]

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

Game resources must be used.
- quest like rainbow in the dark with an item to illuminate a short distance.
- more quest with jumps, Swim, traps, puzzle.

[D'arc_Tangent]

For me, they really hit the sweet spot of what I experienced with D&D with Phiarlan Carnival and Fens back-to-back. I still really like those packs. There have been a few "interesting" bits and pieces released since (I do like Chronoscope), but there have been no packs or expansions that have gotten me excited. TOEE was sadly a huge swing and a miss compared to what it could have been; they had such great source material for that.

The creativity is on on a slow downward slope. It feels like they want to simply meet deadlines and get...well...something new out. I get it, it's a business but still...

[Wizza]

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

Rys and I were both disappointed with the lack of traps and puzzles in the new quests. Well, maybe disappointed isn't the right word, since we both expected it anyway.

Sadly this thread will lead to nowhere and will just be ignored by the majority of players and/or Devs, both because I'm on ignore and mostly because they simply do not care to balance the game any longer.

I recommend listening to the DDO Players news that was on last night with Knockback. Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

No offense meant but the last thing I want to do is listen to Knockback talk about something that they do not use in game anymore (puzzles) while getting bored running HE new packs with my ranger.

If he wants to talk to us, he can do so in the OFFICIAL forums and explain why traps and puzzles disappeared from quest design. Let me be clear, he is not forced to come on here but I surely won't go out of my way to listen to him as well.

[BigErkyKid]

Actually, I do not enjoy the vast majority of puzzles in the game. The reason is that they don't challenge my wits, just my memory.

For me what is interesting is to have tasks that require coordination in the party. Not necessarily just touch two levers at the same time (sigh), which is the lazy approach.

Something like having the rogue / sneaky toon scout ahead for the paths with less mob density or to eliminate sentinels. Stuff that relates to "roles". I want to play as the character, not hang out doing tasks that ANYONE could do given the proper metagaming knowledge.

Having had a quick view at the quests, all I can say is "meh". Particularly for the DDTW v2 one with the dragon. Kill, advance, kill, advance. Kill boss. Maybe the Knockback that gives lessons on quest design should be the one crafting the new quests and now whoever is doing that now.

[HuneyMunster]

Would be nice to see a quest using the fly spell. During the recent cast cordovan was flying over Stormreach so something like flying devils and dragons aerial attack. Other parts could use some mechanics to force them to land to include ground combat. I would think the places like rooftops of Stormreach could make another good battleground similar to how chronoscope was.

[dunklezhan]

No offense meant but the last thing I want to do is listen to Knockback talk about something that they do not use in game anymore (puzzles) while getting bored running HE new packs with my ranger.

If he wants to talk to us, he can do so in the OFFICIAL forums and explain why traps and puzzles disappeared from quest design. Let me be clear, he is not forced to come on here but I surely won't go out of my way to listen to him as well.

The thing is wizza (and I'm guilty of this too), hearing and seeing is different from reading. When they write here, if they aren't word perfect the community (again, me included) picks it apart like it's a legal statement, analysing clauses and sub clauses and inferring meaning that is actually best conveyed through tone of voice or body language. Doesn't help deaf players much but sometimes... I'd rather just hear them explain themselves. You get a much better feel for what they *mean*.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I think for mob density, some of the very old ones had it just right - off the top of my head, a good example is irestone inlet where the groups consist of a mix of enemy types who attack you in different ways & with it's mixture of placed & roaming enemies you need a degree of alertness not to have them sneak up on you while you're busy with the group if you don't approach it with a little sense.

[Thrudh]

Sadly this thread will lead to nowhere and will just be ignored by the majority of players and/or Devs, both because I'm on ignore and mostly because they simply do not care to balance the game any longer.

Maybe the majority of players and/or Devs don't agree with you?

Not saying it's true, but isn't that another possibility?

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

nm.

[Eryhn]

Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

To somewhat set this misleading statement into perspective, knockback said, in reply to a direct question if in the future there would be more and new puzzles that yes, they would DO puzzles but NOT NEW puzzles for content updates like the current 3 f2p quests size - and that we MIGHT see new puzzles, possibly, in a larger update context.

Translate: we do not currently have development ressources to spend on stuff like this and if we were to code a new puzzle mechanic like we did in wyrm, then it would only happen in a bigger content update where it can be re-used multiple times to make it somewhat worthwhile.

nvm ...

[Enoach]

Actually, I do not enjoy the vast majority of puzzles in the game. The reason is that they don't challenge my wits, just my memory.

....

Puzzles in DDO (Excluding must stand on x and y or pull x and y at the same time)

Master Mind
This puzzle is seen in the Reaver's Fate Raid and while there is a solver to help players because of the 4 slots with 6 possible there is no real way to memorize the puzzle itself so this is more a element of deduction and not a memory. Additionally, this is made harder as you have a timer as well as mobs that can knock you around if not dealt with.

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals

Another that fits this is Demon Queen Pre Raid with the puzzle of Six Swords. There is actually a pattern to the solution, now because it is only Six slots and with the knowledge of what is First and what is last you are really only solving 4 slots with 4 possibilities of which you know that the first line indicates the first slot of the 4 is one of the two mentioned meaning etc. So again we only have a page outlining all possible solutions because there is only a finite of possible solutions.

Another that also fits here is Litany of the Dead. This one has 4 solutions and there are guides on how to answer to open up the path that you want. However, all of these questions can be answered if you actually read the NPC text and story lines and gain a little understanding of each boss as well as understanding Alignment in the DnD universe.



Lights out puzzles 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and Circle
These are pattern puzzles really not much you can do except memorize a solve philosophy and look for a pattern not much different then solving a rubics cube.
These are seen in The Pit (Original location), Shroud, and Demon Web Trial by Fury

The more unique ones are the ones that are not Squares but are lights on the floor like Monastery of the Scorpion, the solution takes a little more then a single method and even with a solver it can become difficult as mobs run over sections. This particular one not only needs patience it needs support from other party members to control the mobs.

Another similar puzzle can be found in Enter the Kobold where you are ported around in a pattern much like a knight on a chess board. While one could memorize a pattern to get the whole board, most just keep going until it is all lit up.

Light Path Tiles
This is where you turn a tile to light a path. These are memorization puzzles and they are found in quests like Twilight Forge (Green Room), Ghost of a Chance, The Scoundrel's Run, Cannieth Challenges the ones where you are in the Manner, Delirium, VoN5 and more - This is probably one of the more used puzzle types. While the Mirrors in Deathwyrm are a different take, they are similar in nature to this type.

Wheel Puzzles
6 symbols on a wheel with the solutions scattered in the dungeon where the puzzle is. Seen in The Pit, Haywires Foundry, The Crucible, Under the Big top and a few other places. One of my favorite places this can be found is in Schemes of the Enemy - Solve a puzzle to unlock a door and also in the end fight if you solve the puzzle it depowers the teleporting defense system making it easier to kill as it is not porting during that time. It is a swell way to make this last fight a far cry easier then many make it.

Maze
Mazes could be something as simple as the Gates in Maze of Madness or Complex like the areas most groups skip in Deathwyrm. Other places that utilize maze The Crucible and Prey on the Hunter.


Personally I would like to see more puzzles like Master mind and deduction (Riddle) based on in game dialog. It would be even cooler if such puzzles (riddles) were based on different perception skills, such as Search, Spot, and Listen or even would be something that with strategy you can discover such as if you sneak and are not spotted you get to overhear a conversation or when you rescue an NPC in a room Such as in Chains of Flame with the dwarf they give you knowledge you will need to proceed.


Edit: Just a note if a Developer does read this... Maze puzzles where you die if you pick the wrong path are dumb. Port us back to the start, Port us into a fight but instant death is lame.

[Ballyspringer]

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

This - and the over-inflated HP of mobs needs to be fixed. Stop player power creep and stop the inflated HP! I was running LH shroud the other day again (wont even try LE due to lag) - and I honestly just got bored and wanted to quit in part one and had a hard time convincing myself to keep going due to just how much hp the portals have one after another after another, and then on part 2 with two ranged toons and 3 casters we had to two round the crystal to move on, re-prepping and re-killing the half a million HP red-names.... (which seems to never be a one time and it works thing with pug groups) it was just boring as hell.

For comparison I honestly could not tell you how many regular shrouds back in the day I've ran (one toon out of my 11 for example was at 200 completions before I TR'd him) because it was a fun raid to me - was a mix of hack and slash with puzzles/working together - now it's just hit auto attack, go make a pizza and come back rinse and repeat....

[BigErkyKid]

Puzzles in DDO (Excluding must stand on x and y or pull x and y at the same time)

Master Mind
This puzzle is seen in the Reaver's Fate Raid and while there is a solver to help players because of the 4 slots with 6 possible there is no real way to memorize the puzzle itself so this is more a element of deduction and not a memory. Additionally, this is made harder as you have a timer as well as mobs that can knock you around if not dealt with.

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals

Another that fits this is Demon Queen Pre Raid with the puzzle of Six Swords. There is actually a pattern to the solution, now because it is only Six slots and with the knowledge of what is First and what is last you are really only solving 4 slots with 4 possibilities of which you know that the first line indicates the first slot of the 4 is one of the two mentioned meaning etc. So again we only have a page outlining all possible solutions because there is only a finite of possible solutions.

Another that also fits here is Litany of the Dead. This one has 4 solutions and there are guides on how to answer to open up the path that you want. However, all of these questions can be answered if you actually read the NPC text and story lines and gain a little understanding of each boss as well as understanding Alignment in the DnD universe.



Lights out puzzles 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and Circle
These are pattern puzzles really not much you can do except memorize a solve philosophy and look for a pattern not much different then solving a rubics cube.
These are seen in The Pit (Original location), Shroud, and Demon Web Trial by Fury

The more unique ones are the ones that are not Squares but are lights on the floor like Monastery of the Scorpion, the solution takes a little more then a single method and even with a solver it can become difficult as mobs run over sections. This particular one not only needs patience it needs support from other party members to control the mobs.

Another similar puzzle can be found in Enter the Kobold where you are ported around in a pattern much like a knight on a chess board. While one could memorize a pattern to get the whole board, most just keep going until it is all lit up.

Light Path Tiles
This is where you turn a tile to light a path. These are memorization puzzles and they are found in quests like Twilight Forge (Green Room), Ghost of a Chance, The Scoundrel's Run, Cannieth Challenges the ones where you are in the Manner, Delirium, VoN5 and more - This is probably one of the more used puzzle types. While the Mirrors in Deathwyrm are a different take, they are similar in nature to this type.

Wheel Puzzles
6 symbols on a wheel with the solutions scattered in the dungeon where the puzzle is. Seen in The Pit, Haywires Foundry, The Crucible, Under the Big top and a few other places. One of my favorite places this can be found is in Schemes of the Enemy - Solve a puzzle to unlock a door and also in the end fight if you solve the puzzle it depowers the teleporting defense system making it easier to kill as it is not porting during that time. It is a swell way to make this last fight a far cry easier then many make it.

Maze
Mazes could be something as simple as the Gates in Maze of Madness or Complex like the areas most groups skip in Deathwyrm. Other places that utilize maze The Crucible and Prey on the Hunter.


Personally I would like to see more puzzles like Master mind and deduction (Riddle) based on in game dialog. It would be even cooler if such puzzles (riddles) were based on different perception skills, such as Search, Spot, and Listen or even would be something that with strategy you can discover such as if you sneak and are not spotted you get to overhear a conversation or when you rescue an NPC in a room Such as in Chains of Flame with the dwarf they give you knowledge you will need to proceed.

That's a nice compendium. Again I do not enjoy most of the puzzles, as most are just metagaming (memorize the answer) even if at first they could indeed be solved by wits. But they get old super fast, as soon you pick the pattern and just solve. Monastery is the only one I like as people need to be a bit clever with the mobs touching it.


I don't think that puzzles in DDO allow for much replay value, and they certainly do not appeal to my PnP instinct, which is about cooperation (and not standing looking at a puzzle and solving it). If I wanted to solve puzzles (without gameplay elements around it, and that's most puzzles in DDO), I would buy puzzles not play DDO.

So give me gameplay elements that are puzzle like (needing to fill different roles and what not) but not literal puzzles. ZzzzZZZZzzz von5 puzzle. Yay a test to how smart I am (nope!).

[Thrudh]

I love all the puzzles in DDO.

I've only memorized a few... The replay is high for me since I do not repeat quests over and over. On a typical life, I will run most quests only once in heroic and epic (I can usually get through 3 epic lives without repeating much).

And this takes me a couple of months. So by the time I TR again and repeat a quest, I have forgotten the puzzle, and have to figure it out again.

One thing I will admit, many puzzles are better for solo play. But I think they are a very cool part of DDO.

[tapster]

On the topic of puzzles my favourite by far is the light puzzle at the end of siegebreaker.