Please stop using an absurd number of mobs in every quest

[Wizza]

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

[dunklezhan]

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

Haven't played the new quests but very disappointed if its just another packmob overload. I'll not try to deny that it makes it more challenging (for me), but its becoming formulaic and very tired as an approach now. I'm also at a loss as to how it can not increase lag.

[azrael4h]

I actually stopped and quit playing the other day because of this very issue. While there are outside factors involved as well, after running through Creeping Death, I turned one too many corners to stare at one too many batches of HP-inflated critters, and just said screw it. I quit playing for several hours. Even now, I'm looking more at the game as a chore to play.

I had more fun running around Vol earlier today, despite having ran it so much I can do it asleep at this point, than running newer, less ran quests simply because since Druid's Deep or so, the dungeon design has devolved into halls full of monsters leading to rooms full of monsters, ad infinitum. It's become stale and boring, to the point that I look more forward to TRing and rerunning old favourites than seeing what new stuff is in store. Not a good thing if you want me to buy stuff once you fix the store so I can.

I was playing some Doom maps (yes, people still put out tons of mods and maps for Doom and Doom 2, even after 20+ years!). One of the things I noticed in the higher quality maps, is that even on UV, they tend to rely more on clever placement of mobs rather than overwhelming numbers. A well placed chain gunner can send even a veteran player scrambling. An Arch-Vile can be devastating.

[Rys]

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy jeeeenkins

[Wizza]

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy jeeeenkins

The issue mentioned in the OP is even worse when your DDO partner rushes into the a bunch of shaman kobolds. And guess who dies -_-

[Lonnbeimnech]

I actually stopped and quit playing the other day because of this very issue. While there are outside factors involved as well, after running through Creeping Death, I turned one too many corners to stare at one too many batches of HP-inflated critters, and just said screw it. I quit playing for several hours. Even now, I'm looking more at the game as a chore to play.

I had more fun running around Vol earlier today, despite having ran it so much I can do it asleep at this point, than running newer, less ran quests simply because since Druid's Deep or so, the dungeon design has devolved into halls full of monsters leading to rooms full of monsters, ad infinitum. It's become stale and boring, to the point that I look more forward to TRing and rerunning old favourites than seeing what new stuff is in store. Not a good thing if you want me to buy stuff once you fix the store so I can.

I was playing some Doom maps (yes, people still put out tons of mods and maps for Doom and Doom 2, even after 20+ years!). One of the things I noticed in the higher quality maps, is that even on UV, they tend to rely more on clever placement of mobs rather than overwhelming numbers. A well placed chain gunner can send even a veteran player scrambling. An Arch-Vile can be devastating.

The quests with an impassable barrier every 3 feet that can only get through after killing all the mobs, like creeping death and the druids chain, are the worst design in the game, imo, even worse than 'protect the suicidal NPC' quests.

Combined with the new approach of saturating a quest with mobs, and yeah, its just boring and time consuming.

[azrael4h]

The quests with an impassable barrier every 3 feet that can only get through after killing all the mobs, like creeping death and the druids chain, are the worst design in the game, imo, even worse than 'protect the suicidal NPC' quests.

Combined with the new approach of saturating a quest with mobs, and yeah, its just boring and time consuming.

They could always have you protect a suicidal NPC while going through over-stuffed hallways full of hp-inflated mobs that you have to kill to remove barriers every 3 feet.

Artificial barriers are always bad design.

[Seikojin]

Threnal is a good chain for mob density, type, and strategy.

I agree that mob packing like they have been doing is boring. I think if we had earlier access to the quests, we could provide mob placement feedback and get things into the release.

But their super tight schedule and deadlines for releases don't allow that.

[PsychoBlonde]

Really? I found the 2 new quests to be rather LIGHT on mobs, actually. How many people were in the group with you?

[Wizza]

Really? I found the 2 new quests to be rather LIGHT on mobs, actually. How many people were in the group with you?

Two persons. And I found them heavily filled with mobs.

[Rys]

The issue mentioned in the OP is even worse when your DDO partner rushes into the a bunch of shaman kobolds. And guess who dies -_-

You?

_{(Time was up, it wasn't my fault, we almost got'em, you had to share your experience with me anyway because I was the only one brave there)}

.

[Enoach]

I think this is an issue of confusion with quest design.

What is the appropriate density of mobs?

First any discussion on density of mobs should be noted that it should be based off a standard party of 4. Running with less you should be picking up the slack and running with more, well "many hands make light work"

I do agree, after 3 corners of "Oooh Mobs" and "Oh Mobs must die to proceed" your pushing the patience buttons on many players. Personally anything repeated more than 3 times - Lather, Rinse, Repeat drives a mechanic into the ground. And I like Temple of Elemental Evil, but even I think the hallways full of Mobs standing to be activated was the wrong approach. All those rooms and so many are empty - That's where they should be and mobs in the hallway should be wandering - say walking the full length in a patrol not standing at a junction like they are waiting for an invading army.

My first suggestion is a mechanic should not - repeat should not be used more than 3 times in a single dungeon.

Next it the issue of how many HP should "annoyance" (Not a boss and not a continue point fight) have?

One problem I think is that every mob be it in Heroic or later in Epic all seem to be inflated HP sinks. This is what I think drove many players to put their DPS to 11, which then drove Mobs Damage to 12. This becomes a never ending cycle of one-ups-menship where one release Mobs get the upper hand and later the characters get the upper hand.

I like the idea that entering a dungeon there is a risk that I'm going to die, but no one likes to know they will die 8 to 20 times because of a mechanic or the fact that the Boss is simply going to one-shot them. Don't get me wrong the end boss in Legendary Shroud is one I absolutely love because of his Hellball. Something that can be mitigated but can also be a big thorn in a players side. And in a Raid that is appropriate.

I think the other issue I have is the mix. Challenge is hard to create if all the mobs fall easy prey to a single tactic. Players figure that out and exploit that. Champions helped in the upper difficulties, but more really should happen. Mix it up, much like a balanced party make-up Divine, Arcane, Heavy and light melee as well as a tactical melee. Make it so concentrating on just one of Fortitude, Will and Reflex saves wont be more than 1/3 effective..

I'm not in favor of 4 on 100 at a time. But 4 on 12 still makes sense to me as long at it is not 12 of the same all the time.

[Hobgoblin]

it would make sense to me to have a couple of areas where you fight swarms.

but for me, if you want to have a general rule of hp, cant you spread it out some?

have a caster a couple of big brusiers (that hit hard enough to 2 or 3 shot you without some cc or insane dps) and a few archers. in another room have a grease trap or wind trap that blows you around while you have archers plinking you.

something like that.

not move 4 feet have 10 20k kobolds swarm you, move 10 feet another 10 20k kobolds. repeat process

[Saekee]

if it is possible to use stealth techniques to bypass, then load'em up!

I have not played the new quests but I hope we get to kill gnomes in one of them.

[BigErkyKid]

if it is possible to use stealth techniques to bypass, then load'em up!

The problem is that in many quests stealth is simply run and wings...

I don't think it is a problem of the AI necessary, where did the kobolds that run and hit alarm bells go?

That's the kind of stuff that prevents the idiotic invis zerging and get provides some interesting encounters.

[Saekee]

The problem is that in many quests stealth is simply run and wings...

I don't think it is a problem of the AI necessary, where did the kobolds that run and hit alarm bells go?

That's the kind of stuff that prevents the idiotic invis zerging and get provides some interesting encounters.

agreed! Even things that make sense like guard dogs/wolves that can detect runners or people who are lousy at stealth

[axel15810]

I'd agree with this. Got really bored of the HP levels of the mobs in the new quests, it's just really boring. It doesn't make the mobs more challenging, just makes the quest take longer.

Would like to see less mobs, but more dangerous. Generally this has been my feeling with mobs. Or give them less HP, but give them more damage.

[Krell]

I was just thinking the other day, surely we won't be seeing Kobolds in new quests for a while.

[Wizza]

I was just thinking the other day, surely we won't be seeing Kobolds in new quests for a while.

Surely. Now the kobolds come with a Fire Burst that does 20k dmg and some insane DR on ther boss (I believe, not quite sure it was the kobold who had the DR. I know mummy for sure).


Just for the sake of it: this trend is fairly noticeable in heroics too. I've been leveling a ranger with Rys for the past months and the new quests are considerably just a pain in the ass to run. Tried Creeping Death and Curse the Sky and mobs had over 2k HP, over 2 million of mobs and the xp was..15k. Logged off immediately after the two quests. Yeah, great game Turbine tho.

[tapster]

Just for the sake of it: this trend is fairly noticeable in heroics too. I've been leveling a ranger with Rys for the past months and the new quests are considerably just a pain in the ass to run. Tried Creeping Death and Curse the Sky and mobs had over 2k HP, over 2 million of mobs and the xp was..15k. Logged off immediately after the two quests. Yeah, great game Turbine tho.

This.

The HE run is just boring now. It's not a challenge it's just a time sink, can I grind the mob down before it I fall asleep. There is no reason to run it except for favour and if I was that masochistic I'd run it waaaaaay over level just to get it over with.

And before anyone says its 'the challenge'...I can run it, I choose not to as it's BORING.

But then I was in the 'keep champions as they are' camp when they were originally introduced.

And as much as I want to play this mythical end game, everytime I end up in the Epic levels I'm in the same boat. I might as well play on EN/EH as it's fun. EE is just a slog. The return of tiered loot might help but that's unlikely. Heaven for-fend that that 'ultra' mode is ever introduced I might as well book a day of work for the amount of time it's gonna take me to slog through a couple of hundred 1KK hp mobs.

Please, please, please provide quality not quantity. Give me quests I want to replay because they're good fun, they drop good loot, they actually have a mechanic that isn't <run> MOAR MOBS <run> MOAR MOBS <run> BARRIER <repeat> trash loot. Unless I get that lucky drop (effectively zero considering the amount of chests I've pulled) all I do is take the guild renown LIKE I ALWAYS DID.

TBH I'd prefer it if you didn't release anything and concentrate on all the other quality of life issues and other systems. (*cough* Cannith). But then I'm only clamouring for a Cannith pass as trash loot is so trash.

Consider this when/if you release a classic module. We all have our favourites (Tsojcanth is mine) but whichever one is chosen please give it the respect it deserves. HH was a good example, ToEE should have been better, Ravenloft or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (I hope) could be amazing - except deathblock defeats the purpose of almost the entire dungeon - so probably not that then

Ahh well rant off.