Warpriest is for FS, Radiant Servant is for Clerics.

**Enderoc** · 04-17-2016, 12:40 PM

I think there should be more of a division between FS and Clerics. The Warpriest tree should be strictly Favored Soul and there should be a "Priest" of the Chalice type of tree similar to Paladin for Cleric, but mixing up a bit with having defensive spell like abilities/enhancements or something not entirely focusing on melee , and maybe being allowed to cast Holy Sword as a 9th level spell at cap. Zeal at 18 perhaps.

**Discpsycho** · 04-17-2016, 05:12 PM

Some changes to deities' favored weapons could go a long way. Something as simple as a +1 crit range for the T5 Warpriest enhancement (or a comparable attack speed bonus, or crit multplier, or some other non-trivial benefit to melee) would be a powerful incentive for T5 Warpriest over Radiant Servant for Clerics and would justify pure FvS Warpriest, which is already forced into more of a glass cannon role because T5 AoV (though the DR/10 isn't awful). Even changing the level 12 feat, which is only accessible to FvS and Cleric (Paladin's doing just fine for melee dps), to a crit range or multiplier, would be a huge boon for warpriests.

I wouldn't be super opposed to casting Holy Sword/Zeal, but you could shift core abilities around and throw that into the 5th or 6th cores instead of making it a spell. Or split the benefits and add them to different cores. Or do the same with Zeal. I would just prefer to throw these already-gimped melee builds a bone and not take their 9th level spell slots

**FranOhmsford** · 04-17-2016, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Enderoc

I think there should be more of a division between FS and Clerics. The Warpriest tree should be strictly Favored Soul and there should be a "Priest" of the Chalice type of tree similar to Paladin for Cleric, but mixing up a bit with having defensive spell like abilities/enhancements or something not entirely focusing on melee , and maybe being allowed to cast Holy Sword as a 9th level spell at cap. Zeal at 18 perhaps.

You do realise that the Iconic D&D Cleric is a Mace and Shield using Melee Character who's spells prior to Lvl 9/10/11 {when he gets Flame Strike} are buffs and heals only!

You do realise that that same Cleric has only a handful of DPS/Instakill spells even at Lvl 30 and is most likely still mainly a Melee!

You do realise that DDO has turned the Cleric into something it's not with the insistence on making TU as weak as possible and refusing to accept that a Cleric's few DPS/Instakill Spells should not be subject to the same ridiculous DC demands as a Wizard or Sorcerors because that means the Cleric has to specialise in DC Casting to an extreme where you may as well be playing a Wizard or Sorceror!

Cleric DPS/Instakill Spells could be given massive SP Costs where a Cleric would only be able to cast say Implosion {at say 750 sp per cast} a couple times per quest without running out of SP {And that's with using a Major Mnem Pot every single quest too!}. But that Implosion is guaranteed to work! {Blade Barrier at say 300 sp per cast, Destruction at 250 sp per cast, Slay Living at 150 sp per cast etc.}.

And FavSoul is not Iconic to PnP at all!
It was never even heard of prior to 3.5!
The problem here is that FavSoul has already taken away from Cleric and we don't need it taking even more away!
As we're stuck with a clearly superfluous Class in FavSoul Warpriest should be Cleric Only and FavSouls should be given another Spellcaster Tree that can be used partially with AoV or completely separate from AoV.
Bladeforged FavSouls being clearly more suited to Melee anyway likely already multiclass Fighter/Paladin or Barb anyway and completely ignore the Warpriest Tree!

Warpriest as a Tree does not compete with Fighter/Paladin/Barb/Swashbuckler/Warchanter/Tempest etc. so any Multiclassed Melee FvS is likely to completely ignore it!

I'm actually going to say this again because it's blatantly obvious when you think about it:
FavSoul is a Superfluous Class!
There's no reason for it to exist in DDO!
It has nothing that other classes don't get!
It's a Cleric Light!
Heck Druids are better Party Healers if that's what you want to play but don't want to be a Cleric!
And since Fey Warlock arrived the Light Spamming Divine is in the same superfluous boat!

Fey Warlock was literally the last nail in the coffin of both Clerics and FavSouls!
If Radiant Burst worked even half as well as EB/SB {just on Undead mind you, not on everything like those do} it might actually be worth using! {if only to bring the HP down from Max to help a subsequent TU - not sure if that makes a difference to TU at the moment but it should}.
Turn Undead itself needs it's DC looking at bigtime! And multiple Cleric Specific Heroic, Epic and Legendary items made with DC bonuses for it and upgraded to have those bonuses in the case of current items!

**Discpsycho** · 04-18-2016, 01:19 AM

I'll agree that Turn Undead is weak. Things that use Turn Undead charges, however, are not. I'd say Turbine worked their way around that particular corner they painted themselves into.

Clerics have more spell slots than FvS and some built-in healing, potentially giving them a significantly larger handful of spells than the light-based evocation class while increasing utility. Divine Disciple adds extra spells to the spellbook, giving them a broader range of spells than FvS (Lantern Archon, Crown of Retribution and at-will spells being the only spells granted in AoV). This seems like a Wizard/Sorc comparison to me, but with divine classes that lose CC in favor of healing and another set of buff spells.

I think you've got some rose-tinted glasses regarding DDO's source material. First off, DDO is not 3.0, 3.5, nor Pathfinder (3.75?), so it's a little ridiculous to complain about the existence of FvS on these grounds. Or if you like, sign my (nonexistent) petition to remove Warlocks because they don't appear in the original PHB. More importantly, in PnP, Clerics had a whole slew of offensive spells - debuffs, kill spells, etc. Granted, they depended heavily upon alignment, but that aspect can't carry over particularly well to an MMO. Since heavy armor is really nice at low levels, of course players are going to give their Cleric 18 Strength and a shield and save their spells for healing/buffing, especially considering how backloaded spells are in earlier editions.

I'll admit it's a little tougher to stack Wisdom than Int or Cha, but Druid casters seem to do ok, so Cleric DC's can't be catastrophically worse. The trees don't add as much to DCs or caster levels as the arcane trees (*cough Pale Master cough*), but in the context of the extra healing utility it's reasonable to have spells fail occasionally. It's unfortunate that endgame is currently so absolute that DC is the be-all and the end-all, but I see clerics land spells outside of EE just fine. Introducing a no-fail Implosion, Slay Living, etc would further encourage zerging and non-cooperative play, not to mention it would also benefit Warpriests, who could cast the spells about 2/3 as often with the same effect AND be primary melee folks.

You're right that Warpriest doesn't stack up against primary melee classes in damage, but it makes a decent splash for folks wanting more self/group heals via Ameliorating Strike. Take the Steel Shrine, which until recently was a self-healing tank with solid dps (LE raids killed the dps, unfortunately)

Sovereign Host FvS are essentially the Warlocks of party healing. Just metamagic the bejeezus out of your free CLW, stack devotion and crit, and save your mana for when you want to kill things. Get yourself a LR +1 Heart of Wood, roll Morninglord, spec into EA and drop a Sunburst / Divine Wrath duo for a Warlock-level burst that heals allies, debuffs enemies and isn't centered on you. The ability to do both of these on the same character seems like a decent niche to me.

**JOTMON** · 04-18-2016, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Enderoc

I think there should be more of a division between FS and Clerics. The Warpriest tree should be strictly Favored Soul and there should be a "Priest" of the Chalice type of tree similar to Paladin for Cleric, but mixing up a bit with having defensive spell like abilities/enhancements or something not entirely focusing on melee , and maybe being allowed to cast Holy Sword as a 9th level spell at cap. Zeal at 18 perhaps.

meh, don't have much interest in pigeon-holing.

But do agree cleric needs a lot of work to even begin to be considered a class worth playing again.

Clerics should be walking undead destroyers with all that positive energy.. and yet.. on personal comparison I have found almost every other class better across the board.
Clerics are currently weak agains tundead, no aura debuffs, no good sla's(wrlocks can consume soul/hurl through hell vs undead) clerics...pft... turn undead=fail....
Dev's shied away from having clerics as contributors to the team and really tried to make them dedicated babysitter healers.. which ended up with where clerics are now.. a near dead class...
Players should be saying get a cleric or two.. there's a bunch of undead in these quests... not get more dps, or a warlock, or UMD and a stack of halt undead scrolls instead...

Radiant Servant party curing options are nested to high in the tree, all clerics should be able to access low levels of useful healing SLA's.
Aura should be a Tier 3 with add-ons for T4/T5 to entice advancement not bunch of mediocre stuff to just get aura and as a result force clerics into a radiant servant tree with secondary choices in two suckier trees.

Cleric have poor utility usage from scrolls, or alternative non-mana resources.. a stack of heal scrolls works just as well from any UMD user as it does from a cleric, better from an artificer.

Clerics fell apart back in 2010 , and with good reason, higher mob damage with the inability of clerics to party heal mana efficiently along with weak alternative support doing anything else.

Hopefully at some point a cleric revamp will come along and introduce Divine pacts that give Clerics deity choices along the lines of what Warlocks are getting with their pacts.
and maybe some day clerics will actually be useful against undead where it counts at all levels.

**FranOhmsford** · 04-18-2016, 08:19 PM