Tired of melee being king

[noinfo]

Seems like you provided your own proof. Nothing should be a panacea, PK included.

Seems you have disprove your own statement. 1 quest out of 3 updates but crushing content.

Please follow the advice below. Let me know how it works out.

1) Play a Deep Gnome
2) Play a Wizard
3) Cycle through your 3 PK spells/SLAs
...
5) Profit!


Step 4 would be to build your character for spell pen and illusion DC.

You will kill anything other than the occasional champ and of course bosses.

That being said dc casters are better now than they have been in ages. U27 and 28 need a save pass.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Seems you have disprove your own statement. 1 quest out of 3 updates but crushing content.

Please follow the advice below. Let me know how it works out.

If by disproving my own statement you mean disproving your own statement, then sure. Yeah, I have followed my own advice, and yeah, it works just fine. If you build your character to have only PK, you've built it wrong. I'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand. Why you would you choose to view Wizards as being binary escapes me. PK either kills everything or it sucks?

And unless you only play solo, your group can help you kill anything that PK wont. Much of the time they will be happy to have the opportunity to kill something.

[Powerhungry]

I would say weapon damage and caster damage is out of balance in epic levels and the reason is maybe that the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 rules are very good but insufficient for an online game.
Another player told me the 3.5 rules are not even made for epic levels, I must admit I just bought the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook to learn more about DDO and I am not at all a table top player.
I think DDO should change the rules if necessary by staying as close as possible to the 3.5 rules.
A caster fix is not quickly done and need a lot of changes if you want to balance them for epic levels.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think casters are broken and don't working at all because I say a lot changes are need.
I mean it is just more then maybe only give them more dice for there damage spells.
A sorcerer whose chain lighting would do suddenly 20k damage per target would break the game if nothing else changes.
But if you find the right balance with cool down, SP need etc. it could be that high.
Other things are possible too, like the spell power goes down to zero after you cast an spell and then raises within a given time to the max score. So if you rapidly cast this spells each spell is weak and need a lot spell points/damage and if you gather your power you have a better spell points/damage ratio and awesome numbers but relatively low dps.
Or a sorcerer could be stunned for a brief time after he do such a high damaging spell ... a lot is possible, it just need ideas and the right balance and both is not an easy task.

DDO used to be based very closely to the 3.5 rules. Since update 19 or so (the changing of metamagic feats to spell power was the beginning) they have gotten further and further from 3.5. This game is D&D in name only. Also, heroic and epic content are almost two separate games (with the advent of epic destinies).
In PnP a CR20 critter will have about 1k hp. In DDO that 1hp critter will get one-shotted at level 20 due to the power avalanche (you can no longer call it a power creep...).

[Uska]

DDO used to be based very closely to the 3.5 rules. Since update 19 or so (the changing of metamagic feats to spell power was the beginning) they have gotten further and further from 3.5. This game is D&D in name only. Also, heroic and epic content are almost two separate games (with the advent of epic destinies).
In PnP a CR20 critter will have about 1k hp. In DDO that 1hp critter will get one-shotted at level 20 due to the power avalanche (you can no longer call it a power creep...).

We haven't been anything close to 3.5 for many many years sadly. The first mistake was the enhancement system the original way with 4 things wasn't so bad but now its way overboard.

[noinfo]

If by disproving my own statement you mean disproving your own statement, then sure. Yeah, I have followed my own advice, and yeah, it works just fine. If you build your character to have only PK, you've built it wrong. I'm not sure why this is hard for you to understand. Why you would you choose to view Wizards as being binary escapes me. PK either kills everything or it sucks?

And unless you only play solo, your group can help you kill anything that PK wont. Much of the time they will be happy to have the opportunity to kill something.

You are the one making the blanket statement claiming that wizards destroy content, I just quoted you and now you back peddle, its ok, outside that one quest I know you could not provide any real support for your statement. I have said that dc casters are better than they have been In ages but are not where they need to be.

There is no quest in u27 onward where I would see pk dominating its that simple rendering your argument invalid, unless you are talking normal or maybe hard in epic or legendary. Dc casters still need attention.

[haku-ba]

Dc casters still need attention.

So Mil, what attention do they need do you think? You said the save pass for the U27/28 content would be good, but would that be the way to go really? As Memnir intimated, any change will most likely result in game imbalance changes I imagine. There is no question that melee/ranged DPS is out of control now. Good builds now don't have much difficulty in the game and even the raids can be soloed with the exception of the mechanics that specifically are designed to require some 'extra' people to complete them. Some balancing back to casters may be a valid point I believe; I am not sure DC balancing is in such need though. As you display each time we run together, a good DC caster is now much more effective than they used to be! However, a nuking sorc seems to be a waste of time still.

Personally, I would like to see more quest mechanics that make content worthwhile for a variety of builds, so that in harder quests casters/melee/dps can all be worthwhile. This I think is better achieved by different quest design rather than class changes to 'even' out the play styles. For example, the Whisper fight in HH is not bad. Throw in some mobs doing damage or effects that can't be reached by melee and it would be even trickier.

Class tweaks are all well and good but I still get the most enjoyment from fun quests. Unless they are bard tweaks that is

[noinfo]

So Mil, what attention do they need do you think? You said the save pass for the U27/28 content would be good, but would that be the way to go really? As Memnir intimated, any change will most likely result in game imbalance changes I imagine. There is no question that melee/ranged DPS is out of control now. Good builds now don't have much difficulty in the game and even the raids can be soloed with the exception of the mechanics that specifically are designed to require some 'extra' people to complete them. Some balancing back to casters may be a valid point I believe; I am not sure DC balancing is in such need though. As you display each time we run together, a good DC caster is now much more effective than they used to be! However, a nuking sorc seems to be a waste of time still.

Personally, I would like to see more quest mechanics that make content worthwhile for a variety of builds, so that in harder quests casters/melee/dps can all be worthwhile. This I think is better achieved by different quest design rather than class changes to 'even' out the play styles. For example, the Whisper fight in HH is not bad. Throw in some mobs doing damage or effects that can't be reached by melee and it would be even trickier.

Class tweaks are all well and good but I still get the most enjoyment from fun quests. Unless they are bard tweaks that is

You might have noticed that I only use him for one quest from the updates or to perform cc in LE raids. Keep in mind as well that he is as powerful as a dc wiz can get and yet content from u27 on save 1 quest is less than ordinary. I have so many characters it is simple for me to switch to whatever I feel like playing but I i will say that if I was limited in choice wizards would not be even close to first choice at the moment. If your in doubt I am happy to take you through that content. Or ask your brother to go run these on ee with him. And yes I agree with nuking sorcs needing help too..

[haku-ba]

You might have noticed that I only use him for one quest from the updates or to perform cc in LE raids. Keep in mind as well that he is as powerful as a dc wiz can get and yet content from u27 on save 1 quest is less than ordinary. I have so many characters it is simple for me to switch to whatever I feel like playing but I i will say that if I was limited in choice wizards would not be even close to first choice at the moment. If your in doubt I am happy to take you through that content. Or ask your brother to go run these on ee with him. And yes I agree with nuking sorcs needing help too..

Oh, so if they changed the DCs in U27 content would that make the DC Wiz class balanced with melee/ranged? Is it only balanced if the DC wiz is 'dominating' content? What exactly would a balanced quest look like at the end of the run, or how would I 'know' it was balanced now? Is it possible to 'balance' classes any more now anyway? I think it is not an unusual statement to say that DPS is totally dominant in DDO now and for DC casters DPS most likely means insta-kills. So unless you can insta-kill stuff as a caster the class won't be 'balanced'? Is that the kind of thing you think would be best?

With the decline of most aspects of the game in favor of DPS, the wizard class would seem to have naturally become unfavorable due to its design, would it not?

I am genuinely interested in what you think, as for a long time running epics stuck at level 20 with your 60 or so toons you called for an end game leveling mechanic and then it happened and we were all the better for it! I was impressed with your vision to call for something long before the epic leveling system was even discussed. I know you can remember a time when DC casters were top of the line for epics. Is the only solution to class balance in DDO a cycle of changes and then counter changes repeating endlessly till the servers are switched off?

[noinfo]

Oh, so if they changed the DCs in U27 content would that make the DC Wiz class balanced with melee/ranged? Is it only balanced if the DC wiz is 'dominating' content? What exactly would a balanced quest look like at the end of the run, or how would I 'know' it was balanced now? Is it possible to 'balance' classes any more now anyway? I think it is not an unusual statement to say that DPS is totally dominant in DDO now and for DC casters DPS most likely means insta-kills. So unless you can insta-kill stuff as a caster the class won't be 'balanced'? Is that the kind of thing you think would be best?

With the decline of most aspects of the game in favor of DPS, the wizard class would seem to have naturally become unfavorable due to its design, would it not?

I am genuinely interested in what you think, as for a long time running epics stuck at level 20 with your 60 or so toons you called for an end game leveling mechanic and then it happened and we were all the better for it! I was impressed with your vision to call for something long before the epic leveling system was even discussed. I know you can remember a time when DC casters were top of the line for epics. Is the only solution to class balance in DDO a cycle of changes and then counter changes repeating endlessly till the servers are switched off?

Q

The u27 and to a lesser degree u28 were a time when the debs wanted us to have to target a single save out of the 3 to be able to disable a mob. This means mobs in that content had a single weak save and the others unreachable at the time even with extreme rebuffs. The gear and extra feats we have now let dc casters (specifically wiz) operate strongly in most content up to that being a few exceptions notably toes where whole groups spawn with dw or fom. Even now with max gear and stuff watching a reader walk through rebuff and Dane balls, hols and webs due to fire then needing multiple Efrain to kill is just silly

Rebalance saves and sr. Introduce new spells (plenty of suggestion in threads) particular long cd spells to deal with orange named or deathwarded (imprisonment )

My wiz dominates in curse the sky in a group but would struggle and be inefficient solo and the whole group moves faster. Really what is needed right now is a consistency pass. With a firm level cap they know what dc can be achieved by what level of character and balance around it.
The occasional quest where they are not able to contribute as much is ok but remember the game now promotes limited characters played and people will not choose to play one that is not effective in most if not all content

Sorry auto correct making a mess will fix when on pc.

[Kompera_Oberon]

You are the one making the blanket statement claiming that wizards destroy content, I just quoted you and now you back peddle, its ok, outside that one quest I know you could not provide any real support for your statement. I have said that dc casters are better than they have been In ages but are not where they need to be.

There is no quest in u27 onward where I would see pk dominating its that simple rendering your argument invalid, unless you are talking normal or maybe hard in epic or legendary. Dc casters still need attention.

I am not backpedaling, that is your invention. Wizards can and do destroy content with PK. You are the one adding conditionals such as "unless you are talking [blah blah]." Once again, PK sucks except where it dominates? Again, when PK isn't landing, there are alternatives.

I've been a vocal advocate that the devs finish the class passes they have shelved or given scant attention to for literally years, so I am well aware that casters in general, not just DC casters, and not just arcane but also and especially divine, still need attention. All of the new feats, races, and gear they have introduced since about U29 have helped arcane casters but have fairly well ignored divine casters. Master of Light granting +10 max level to Divine Punishment is a joke, along with a good number of other examples.

[Gljosh]

During the time that I have played, melee were strong BUT needed DR beaters in later game, Casters were powerful BUT mana pots were hard to come by, and Ranged was all about Manyshot. Oh and pretty much everyone wore robes/outfits.

Over time, Melee went back and forth from being WICKEDLY powerful to back pack buddy.

Casters are slightly better off (SLAs and mana pots) but suffer against the HP bags.

Ranged are slightly better off as well (or were before the Manyshot adjustment), more spots to perch, more feats.

Overall players power has increased while the game has not kept up. Melees "feel" more powerful because of the enhancement passes (Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue, and Bard have had full passes). Just compare a q-staff Rogue to a Q-staff Monk, the difference is the enhancement pass. Most of the casters (Druid, FvS, Arti) don't have a third functional tree.

Every adjustment made to one class needs time to be balanced out with the other classes.

[Selvera]

DDO used to be based very closely to the 3.5 rules. Since update 19 or so (the changing of metamagic feats to spell power was the beginning) they have gotten further and further from 3.5. This game is D&D in name only. Also, heroic and epic content are almost two separate games (with the advent of epic destinies).
In PnP a CR20 critter will have about 1k hp. In DDO that 1hp critter will get one-shotted at level 20 due to the power avalanche (you can no longer call it a power creep...).

1k HP? That's a little high for a CR 20 creature. Here, I'll give you a reference, one of D&D age-old mythical beasts that's been carried down from edition to edition as possibly THE most powerful monster there is (except maybe some of the most ancient of dragons).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm

Here's a nice quote I found about the tarrasque

The Tarrasque is the physical equivalent to a demilich. It is called THE Tarrasque for a reason: there's only one. It is nearly indestructible, even harder to kill, and reserved for parties whose only challenges come from combatting deities.

The Tarrasque’s lair has nothing in it, except the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque does not horde treasure, like dragons or liches. Your reward for felling this freak-accident of nature is the equipment you can have crafted from its teeth, claws, hide, and (if you roll high enough on treasure), a slew of coins and equipment from slightly-less fortunate adventurers.

If you plan to combat the Tarrasque, (or are unlucky enough to encounter it above ground) it is HIGHLY recommended that you have 8 or more party members. Odds are that 3-4 of you will be eaten or dismembered, so have enough extra party members to compensate for the loss of damage or healing... this is an incredibly-long encounter.

In ddo the description would be something more like this:
The tarrasque is kind of annoying since DDO doesn't have a wish or miracle spell to make it stay dead, but unless you just run past it and ingore the very low damage it does, just hit it a couple times and it'll spend about five minutes unconscious. That should be plenty of time to run past it and finish the quest.

[Gljosh]

1k HP? That's a little high for a CR 20 creature. Here, I'll give you a reference, one of D&D age-old mythical beasts that's been carried down from edition to edition as possibly THE most powerful monster there is (except maybe some of the most ancient of dragons).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm

Here's a nice quote I found about the tarrasque



In ddo the description would be something more like this:
The tarrasque is kind of annoying since DDO doesn't have a wish or miracle spell to make it stay dead, but unless you just run past it and ingore the very low damage it does, just hit it a couple times and it'll spend about five minutes. That should be plenty of time to run past it and finish the quest.

The saddest thing is that with those stats, it would be what like a level 8 Raid boss?

Maybe if Thunderforged did not have a 50% Max HP ability AND be Metalline, things would be different.

Actually earlier today we ran Fleshmaker on Heroic Elite and had a champ that Absorbed Bludgeon and Slash and appeared to be running in FotW ED. Maybe the best path forward is to have Champ Mobs that have high DRs against specific melee damage types, in a similar fashion to Casters.

[HuneyMunster]

3. Especially on Dire Charge in conjunction with Cormyrean Knight Tactics and/or KTA. It's a little sad when a Pale Master can have a better DC with Dire Charge than his or her spells.
.

Ive pretty much maxed evocation dc on a Warlock minus epic evocation and don't have epic increased potential for total of -3 to what I could get. I'm sitting at 82 Charisma and finding Burst of Glacial Wrath a lot weaker than Dire Charge. Also a lot of mobs seems to be immune to this spell as the spell don't work most mobs in LN Codex and the Shroud such as Kobolds, while 75 dc Soundburst from Exalted Angel has about 30-50% chance to stun. Epic feat Embolden Spell doesn't effect it and I don't think Arcane Insight does either.

[noinfo]

I am not backpedaling, that is your invention. Wizards can and do destroy content with PK. You are the one adding conditionals such as "unless you are talking [blah blah]." Once again, PK sucks except where it dominates? Again, when PK isn't landing, there are alternatives.

I've been a vocal advocate that the devs finish the class passes they have shelved or given scant attention to for literally years, so I am well aware that casters in general, not just DC casters, and not just arcane but also and especially divine, still need attention. All of the new feats, races, and gear they have introduced since about U29 have helped arcane casters but have fairly well ignored divine casters. Master of Light granting +10 max level to Divine Punishment is a joke, along with a good number of other examples.

Look out heroic waterworks here comes my completions level 30 caster to destroy you o heroic casual. No kobold will be left to remember or fear my pk.

Anyone with common sense will clarify their statement particular when I have clearly addressed problem unbalanced content. I am only concerned with elite, if you want to discus anything else which by your issue with my qualifiers you are free to do so and I will agree casters and pk are great in hard or normal.

Yes divines need a boost too and so do sorcs.

But if you think pk destroys content at end game I call bs.

[Chacka_DDO]

I think most players expect exactly this ... the grass should be equal green on both sides from an objective standpoint. So whats your suggestion to make this happen? (this forum is called Suggestion and Ideas)