Tired of melee being king

[Rofaust]

When melees have better AC, HP, PRR, same or better DPS and their attacks don't take up SP why are we supposed to want to play a caster wizard, sorc or druid? That Eldritch Knight makes meleeing for casters sometimes a better option than casting I think is very wrong. Casters have not been anywhere close to OP (warlocks notwithstanding) for years. Now that barbarian, fighter, paladin and ranger have all gotten or are getting passes, can casters have a little love please? Indirectly through gnome was nice but not enough.

[Maelodic]

When melees have better AC, HP, PRR, same or better DPS and their attacks don't take up SP why are we supposed to want to play a caster wizard, sorc or druid? That Eldritch Knight makes meleeing for casters sometimes a better option than casting I think is very wrong. Casters have not been anywhere close to OP (warlocks notwithstanding) for years. Now that barbarian, fighter, paladin and ranger have all gotten or are getting passes, can casters have a little love please? Indirectly through gnome was nice but not enough.

Melees do not have the range, control, or aoe damage of casters. Neither (usually) the buffs, self healing, or utility.

[Enderoc]

When melees have better AC, HP, PRR, same or better DPS and their attacks don't take up SP why are we supposed to want to play a caster wizard, sorc or druid?

Your first three factors would be like asking why pure Clerics can't do traps.

[PsychoBlonde]

Melee got "a little love" because they were stinking the place up for a long time. They did a big survey and used that information to plan what order to do the class revamp passes in. Casters were universally near the top of the list, so they're taking a while to get attention.

Also, I've played plenty of casters, they do just fine.

[noinfo]

Melee got "a little love" because they were stinking the place up for a long time. They did a big survey and used that information to plan what order to do the class revamp passes in. Casters were universally near the top of the list, so they're taking a while to get attention.

Also, I've played plenty of casters, they do just fine.

Melee got the luv they needed because non casters were all ranged.

Casters are not fine by a long way unless you are a warlock. DPS hybrid wizards do ok, Sorcs seem to have fallen behind in the area of nuking where they should be king. And DC casters (which had been dead for a long time) are quite a bit better if you don't count U27 or 28 content which the saves are still out of whack and you have a completionist for spell pen. Of course if you want more than an enchanter you are still going to struggle some with necro based saves.
I play plenty of casters and non casters and no they are not fine

[noinfo]

Melees do not have the range, control, or aoe damage of casters. Neither (usually) the buffs, self healing, or utility.

You could only be talking about heroic content because

AOE damage with cleaves etc or DOD is higher than what will be being put out by casters, control really only gets better on a caster if they are enchanters and have high enough spell pen or maybe land a web.

Buffs and utility pretty much not required since gear out performs it by a long way.

[Hobgoblin]

You could only be talking about heroic content because

AOE damage with cleaves etc or DOD is higher than what will be being put out by casters, control really only gets better on a caster if they are enchanters and have high enough spell pen or maybe land a web.

Buffs and utility pretty much not required since gear out performs it by a long way.

just as a note, even though you didnt mention it, dps is way down on a caster. if you are soloing, sure you can hold everything, but then what? a well built meele rips through trash so quick and boss dps is great too. dps on a caster is similar............... as long as you have mana pots.

[PsychoBlonde]

Melee got the luv they needed because non casters were all ranged.

Casters are not fine by a long way unless you are a warlock. DPS hybrid wizards do ok, Sorcs seem to have fallen behind in the area of nuking where they should be king. And DC casters (which had been dead for a long time) are quite a bit better if you don't count U27 or 28 content which the saves are still out of whack and you have a completionist for spell pen. Of course if you want more than an enchanter you are still going to struggle some with necro based saves.
I play plenty of casters and non casters and no they are not fine

DC casting "dead"? Speak for yourself, my druid and arti are doing just dandy. I run with DC casters all the time who just wreck the place.

Is it something you can just pick up and do in all content? No. But I have no problem with there being builds that require heavy investment of time. It's something for people to mess around with. And there are fine DPS options for caster builds as well.

They run a bit slow in the toughest content at present, but that's okay, their turn is coming. It's not like they CAN'T DO the content.

[Chacka_DDO]

I would say weapon damage and caster damage is out of balance in epic levels and the reason is maybe that the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 rules are very good but insufficient for an online game.
Another player told me the 3.5 rules are not even made for epic levels, I must admit I just bought the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook to learn more about DDO and I am not at all a table top player.
I think DDO should change the rules if necessary by staying as close as possible to the 3.5 rules.
A caster fix is not quickly done and need a lot of changes if you want to balance them for epic levels.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think casters are broken and don't working at all because I say a lot changes are need.
I mean it is just more then maybe only give them more dice for there damage spells.
A sorcerer whose chain lighting would do suddenly 20k damage per target would break the game if nothing else changes.
But if you find the right balance with cool down, SP need etc. it could be that high.
Other things are possible too, like the spell power goes down to zero after you cast an spell and then raises within a given time to the max score. So if you rapidly cast this spells each spell is weak and need a lot spell points/damage and if you gather your power you have a better spell points/damage ratio and awesome numbers but relatively low dps.
Or a sorcerer could be stunned for a brief time after he do such a high damaging spell ... a lot is possible, it just need ideas and the right balance and both is not an easy task.

[noinfo]

DC casting "dead"? Speak for yourself, my druid and arti are doing just dandy. I run with DC casters all the time who just wreck the place.

Is it something you can just pick up and do in all content? No. But I have no problem with there being builds that require heavy investment of time. It's something for people to mess around with. And there are fine DPS options for caster builds as well.

They run a bit slow in the toughest content at present, but that's okay, their turn is coming. It's not like they CAN'T DO the content.

You might want to re read. Dc was dead it made a partial comeback. It is not where it needs to be and any casters doing good cps are not dc casting. Would love to hear how wiz dc casters are wrecking old content u27.

[Enoach]

First I don't think it is melee that is King. The problem is DPS is nearly 100% effective in all situations.

Now this is just my opinion but for melee I think the abundance of AoE damage that does high amounts like {ML of Weapon}d6/d8/d10 are a contributing factor in making the melee option too effective by giving them a high damage option for AoE.

Next is that Stun DCs being not on par with fortitude save DCs of DC casters but exceeding them and making it necessary for Saves to be boosted to keep up with melee stuns which in turn hurts the DC Caster.

I'm not sure how this can be fixed but Weapon Effects are generally better then the DC caster as it bypasses saves, spell pen and does not have the resource costs.

No one playstyle should be this effective. It should always be a mix of what works best, and trying to do it only one way should be doable but should be like fighting up hill.

[Memnir]

[ThePrincipal]

just as a note, even though you didnt mention it, dps is way down on a caster. if you are soloing, sure you can hold everything, but then what? a well built meele rips through trash so quick and boss dps is great too. dps on a caster is similar............... as long as you have mana pots.

That's now how it's done. If you are soloing on an arcane you dont mass hold, you mass charm. And run past them to the next door. Most bosses are surrounded by trash mobs, charm and let them kill the boss. It's that easy.

[Hobgoblin]

That's now how it's done. If you are soloing on an arcane you dont mass hold, you mass charm. And run past them to the next door. Most bosses are surrounded by trash mobs, charm and let them kill the boss. It's that easy.

talking about epics. where the mobs saves are super inflated and charms automatically wear off after 6-8 secs.

in heroics a con dumped sorc using a great ax can get to 20, so i am more concerned with epics

[Kompera_Oberon]

Would love to hear how wiz dc casters are wrecking old content u27.

1) Play a Deep Gnome
2) Play a Wizard
3) Cycle through your 3 PK spells/SLAs
...
5) Profit!


Step 4 would be to build your character for spell pen and illusion DC.

You will kill anything other than the occasional champ and of course bosses.

[noinfo]

1) Play a Deep Gnome
2) Play a Wizard
3) Cycle through your 3 PK spells/SLAs
...
5) Profit!


Step 4 would be to build your character for spell pen and illusion DC.

You will kill anything other than the occasional champ and of course bosses.

Step 5 is reality check.
My 90+ Nero dc heroic epic completions with every toy and vs most mobs no fail spell pen does very little in the 27 and some in 28 update. Dual save pk is even worse. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

You will do well in curse the sky in u29, the oozes will luv your pk as will half the kobolds

[Selvera]

On my server it appears that 50% of people in epic content are using a repeating crossbow of some variant, and 25% of the remaining people are playing warlocks.

The rest are split between bow, melee and casters.

Maybe my server's just weird, or maybe melee isn't the problem.

[Discpsycho]

First I don't think it is melee that is King. 1. The problem is DPS is nearly 100% effective in all situations.

2. Now this is just my opinion but for melee I think the abundance of AoE damage that does high amounts like {ML of Weapon}d6/d8/d10 are a contributing factor in making the melee option too effective by giving them a high damage option for AoE.

3. Next is that Stun DCs being not on par with fortitude save DCs of DC casters but exceeding them and making it necessary for Saves to be boosted to keep up with melee stuns which in turn hurts the DC Caster.

4. I'm not sure how this can be fixed but Weapon Effects are generally better then the DC caster as it bypasses saves, spell pen and does not have the resource costs.

5. No one playstyle should be this effective. It should always be a mix of what works best, and trying to do it only one way should be doable but should be like fighting up hill.

(I've labelled your points in red for ease of reference)

1. Absolutely. The main barrier for pure DPS is damage reduction or immunity. The latter is relatively rare for spells and requires minimal effort on the part of casters to diversify their damage types (eg. a Fire Savant taking a few points in Air Savant for combat vs. fire elementals). The former is mostly a barrier for TWF or Repeater builds, but Repeaters builds have alternative damage sources (imbues and spells depending on the build) and the truly impressive TWF builds are run by completionists who have a wide variety of DR-breaking weapons and the game knowledge to use them properly.

2. I'm not sure if I agree entirely. With Lay Waste, which adds +5[W] and +1 Crit Multiplier, using Epic Riftmaker (5[1d12], 20 x4), +5[W] adds 5*1d12, or an average of 5*6.5 = 32.5 bonus damage. Even with a x7 multiplier (Holy Sword / Overwhelming Crit / Headman's Chop / Devastating Crit / Greater Vicious / etc), that's a bonus of ~220, which doesn't look like overkill to me. The +1 Crit Multiplier is probably giving a greater bonus than the +5[W], and Lay Waste / Tantrum are the cleaves with the highest +[W].

3. Especially on Dire Charge in conjunction with Cormyrean Knight Tactics and/or KTA. It's a little sad when a Pale Master can have a better DC with Dire Charge than his or her spells.

4. While I wouldn't say this is as much of a problem on AOE builds, it's definitely the case for boss beaters. A pure Tempest is in the neighborhood of a Shiradi caster for hits/sec, and on-hit weapon effects are better than Shiradi procs.

5. +1. I'll never understand why people get so attached to their PM Necro DC when they have another 30+ spell slots that can't be filled with Necro spells and can easily invest some points in Archmage (depending on the build, they probably already are). Since spellpower shows up on more than just weapons, it's pretty straightforward to achieve mediocre evocation damage with a few no-save spells for those times when DC casting just won't cut it.

[HastyPudding]

I think the game was fine until warlocks shows up. I mean, I LOOOOOVE warlock in PnP and other D&D games and I thoroughly enjoyed warlocks when they first entered DDO. It's one of my favorite classes in any MMO. But...they messed it up royally in DDO. It has broken the game for casters. Before warlocks came along, there was a sort of balance (not a good one, but balance nonetheless) between ranged, casters, and melee.

Before warlocks (in general, build dependent):
Melee - decent to good damage / good survivability
Ranged - good damage / decent survivability
Caster - low single target damage, but decent magic AoE damage / low to decent survivability

Current DDO (in general, build dependent):
Melee - good to top damage / good to top survivability
Ranged - good to top damage / decent to good survivability
Caster - low single target damage, but good magic AoE damage / low to decent survivability
Warlocks - good to great AoE and single target magic dps / good to top survivability

Thus, warlocks have become the premier magic damage class. Sure, sorcerers along with some wizards and spellsinger bards can reach higher damage numbers (nuking/damage), but warlocks have much higher damage output (dps). A cleric, favored soul, or arcanotech artificer are somewhat magic dps classes, since they spam constant, moderate damaging spells, but nothing compared to a decently-geared warlock. Druids are not even in the ballpark of what I would consider a magic damage class: in epics, if they are a caster, they are a healer with good crowd control and small spike damage when they get a good call lightning crit.

I think the whole issue is that warlock's damage being an auto-attack has skewed the balance in DDO. Traditional casters are no longer providing good aoe damage compared to the free, constant aoe damage of a warlock. If Turbine had bothered to listen to my ideas on eldritch blasts when warlock was first announced, we wouldn't have this problem.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Feel free to prove me wrong though.

You will do well in curse the sky in u29, the oozes will luv your pk as will half the kobolds

Seems like you provided your own proof. Nothing should be a panacea, PK included.