Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[Cetus]

Actually these are pretty good.

AND PUT IN A TACTICS COOLDOWN REDUCER!!!!! Everyone wants this and it makes total sense.

Yes, this is nearly a no-brainer given how insultingly long the stunning blow cooldown is. I'd even make a case for giving fighters another stunning-like effect within the Kensei tree itself, as fighters simply must have better tactical control of mobs than the other melee classes; which they currently do not.

[Axeyu]

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you wrote here. Isn't the presence of low-hanging abilities (such as the ones I mentioned in a previous post) enough incentive to multiclass several fighter levels?

The existence of unique abilities further down the road, as you class deeper into fighter and eventually acquire the capstone, does not impinge on the perks of a 2, 4, or 6 level fighter splash. It is precisely the absence of unique pure or near-pure abilities that makes multiclassing the only context in which you'll find someone playing a fighter. This has precisely been the fighter's condition for the past several years now - even before I developed my centered kensei build thread - which was a long time ago now. In fact, the centered kensei itself (despite how well the build functioned) existed precisely for the reason that pure fighters were no longer competitive.

So, if you can please provide some specifics as to what you mean, maybe I'd better understand where you're coming from.

With "multiclass build based on the class" I mean a multiclassed build that has fighter as it's main class and not just as a splash.
Capstones does not need unique build defining features to give players incentive to go pure. They just need to be powerful.

To see why your suggestion is bad just imagine if they moved Dance of Death to the tempest capstone. The defining feature of tempest rangers would be reserved for only pure builds, completely killing off any multiclass potential that still remains.

[maddong]

How about making the capstone turn your stunning blow/trip/sunder into no save abilities (they still have cooldowns, right?)?

[Chacka_DDO]

Spiritual Bond: When you have a weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, it gains On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation: This weapon gains a +1 Insight bonus to Enhancement bonus for 20 seconds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack of Meditative Focus is removed at a time.

First of all i think this is not removed, just the possibility to furthermore increase the Enhancement bonus from +6 to +10 at the end?

I think it is sad to remove Weapon Meditation because it is basically a nice idea and it is something unique and gives some flavor to Kensei. The problem is for me, its just not worth to do it at the moment. At last I am not aware I have ever seen a Fighter siting down and actually doing this.
The question is, what should it do to make it useful without just adding even more flat dps to the game?
It just need a good idea to improve it to just make it useful and worth to do it.
Maybe if you have the +10 Enhancement bonus bonus on your weapon you unlock some kind of action boost that makes your weapon Bludgeon Slash and Pierce for two minutes.
The idea is, to be prepare your sword for a fight against a skeleton, The Abbot for example.
another idea could be to make this action boost adding a vampirism effect for 2 minutes on your weapon (by the way, why does vampirsim on weapons not aid vampires but repairs and heals?)
there for sure better ideas out there.

[acdcrocks]

Weapon Meditation is removed.

This is a real shame. Wep med is a cool idea, and i wish it would get buffed to be actually useful to use like, before a boss fight. If nothing else keep this in the kensai tree.

[count_spicoli]

Yes, this is nearly a no-brainer given how insultingly long the stunning blow cooldown is. I'd even make a case for giving fighters another stunning-like effect within the Kensei tree itself, as fighters simply must have better tactical control of mobs than the other melee classes; which they currently do not.

Yes. I'm not saying bring the cool downs to 6 secs like monk because that is one of the great things about monk and that dc modifier is not there main dmg stat like a fighters but something like 1/2/3 cumulative to make all tactics 9 secs instead of 15 would give fighter better cc which is where they should shine. It could even be in the capstone. Tactics reduced from 15 to 9 secs or something like that.

[Cetus]

Capstones does not need unique build defining features to give players incentive to go pure. They just need to be powerful.

In your mind, what is the distinction between "unique build defining features" and "powerful"?

To see why your suggestion is bad just imagine if they moved Dance of Death to the tempest capstone. The defining feature of tempest rangers would be reserved for only pure builds, completely killing off any multiclass potential that still remains.

Alright, when I imagine a situation where dance of death is the capstone, does dervish become the tier 5 ability then? Because in that case I still see a strong reason to splash 12 ranger - in fact, I personally value boss DPS above that of efficient trash clearing, so I don't value dance of death as much as you seem to; and would much prefer the extra melee power and doublestrike.

So...I don't think your example really holds here. But that is besides the point, because in order to revive the fighter class we will need both competitive tier 5 enhancements and more unique and powerful cores on the path to 20. If things like "one cut" and "spiritual bond" persist as core abilities (or anywhere, for that matter), then the class will remain uninteresting.

[Strimtom]

I guess it provides synergy with whatever you've picked from some other tree to do damage with if multiclassing. Including Wis still makes no sense given there's no wis to damage option anywhere still (not that I'm advocating one, I'd always have preferred if Str remained the only melee damage option, and I say that as someone who favours dex builds. Choices.).

For all those wondering why it could be nice to have +2 to all stats from the capstone, consider...

• Strength to hit and damage, from regular melee
• Dext to hit and damage from several weapons, and the elf enhancement tree
• Con to damage from the dwarf tree
• Int to hit and damage from the harper tree
• Wisdom to hit and damage from Harbinger of Nature (Druid past life)
• Charisma to his and damage from PDK enhancement tree.

All fighters can use their main stat, assuming they invest heavily in other places. It also gives fighters +1 on saves and skill checks as a side effect, which doesn't seem overpowered.

[Seikojin]

For all those wondering why it could be nice to have +2 to all stats from the capstone, consider...

• Strength to hit and damage, from regular melee
• Dext to hit and damage from several weapons, and the elf enhancement tree
• Con to damage from the dwarf tree
• Int to hit and damage from the harper tree
• Wisdom to hit and damage from Harbinger of Nature (Druid past life)
• Charisma to his and damage from PDK enhancement tree.

All fighters can use their main stat, assuming they invest heavily in other places. It also gives fighters +1 on saves and skill checks as a side effect, which doesn't seem overpowered.

Also the all stat buff will help with saves, skills, etc. I don't see problems there for the most part. Definitely not the direction I suggested last year, and definitely not where I would have went this year. However it is a better direction than it is on live.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

this is honestly what i was afraid was going to happen with this pass, but oh well because its not as bad as i thought.

cores:

Strike with no thought: meh ok. fighters need this, i guess its fine here. what i dont understand is why its not tied to weapon focus group. it should be, otherwise its too easy of a buff to non fighters. and no, tying it to wfg wouldnt change that much, but lets at least have some consistency. either handicap fighters with the wfg system, or make weapon focus enhancements and feats universal and just remove the variants and multiselectors and requirements.

One cut: this has yet to be addressed. and make no mistake, it absolutely must. as is its literally unusable 99% of the time, do something, anything, to make it better.

Alacrity: i like the increased action boost bonus. i dont understand +2 to all stats though. i guess its more like +3 to all stats since youre still forcing fighters to take kta...so as someone else already suggested id rather it just be a multiselector of +4 to one stat. cause really, on this class, at level 30, +1 saves and +1 skills is pretty meaningless.


tier 1:

reed in the wind: if you are going to keep this ability, please increase the +[w]. its not going to help heavy armor pure fighters. centered kenseis (which are going to make a comeback if this tree is implemented as is) might get some use out of the dodge, but its still only 9% with 40% uptime, and +3[w]. nobody is going to take this. no. body. either put in five more minutes of dev time to make this worthwhile or just leave it as what we already have and spend more time on other things.


tier 2:

improved dodge: ap cost reduction is a very very good thing here. improved defense multiselector is kinda weak though.

weapon meditation: ok, you removed weapon meditation which was kinda bad, and it was filler points to one with the blade which is now REALLY good, so thats ok. but couldnt you have tweaked it so it was a wis-to-str dm/kta variant? i wouldve preferred that. or at least getting some cool fighter specific ability.

weapon group specialization: this is satisfactory, but why not increase the to-hit to +2 per tier? also, why isnt this change listed in tier 1? also, i think its pretty important that the feat requirements for this enhancement line not be reduced or removed...see one with the blade...


tier 3:

critical mastery: about time...

improved mobility: i like that it now works in any armor, but its still going to cost 2 ap per rank? i feel thats still too much considering the costs of all of the prereqs...

shattering strike: i REALLY like that there is no save on this at all now. however, now it must be clarified whether or not this stacks with the fortification debuff from improved sunder, destruction, and improved destruction. it should. if thats a problem, just give this ability a str based dc.


tier 4:

opportunity attack: so, this has no cooldown it seems, which i like. however it may as well have a cool down because the only reason for using it will be the mp buff. i would much rather this ability work this way: 1/2/3 charges, melee attack deals +1/3/5[w] with +0/1/2 crit range and multiplier. each time you damage an opponent, but not more than once per second, you have a 5/10/15% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 1/2/3. at rank 3 adds: on successful tactical ability use, you gain +10 mp for 6 seconds.

strike at the heart: assuming this stacks with destruction and the new shattering strike and improved sunder, this will be nice. i guess itll be mandatory anyway for the to-hit...

mystery enhancement: plus make this an active defensive bonus tied to shield blocking. it would be a great way to increase their survivability and be unique... something along the lines of +str score to dodge and prr while shield blocking with a weapon in your weapon focus group. that way you dont have to add some ******** hamp or healing that people want, but increase survivability of fighters and also keep their dps in check. also it would be different and cool. win, win, win, win.


tier 5:

a good death: ok

one with the blade: ok, this enhancement is clearly not well thought out. its a prime example of "if we just throw enough **** (crit mods and mp) at the wall (various classes which did not start out the same, but ended up the same), itll stick (yes, it is sticking. but now the wall smells bad)." this is a nice buff for fighters, and thats a good thing. the problem is, now its a nice buff for everyone else too. because of the reductions of the prereqs (which i dont understand why that was necessary for this in the first place...) this will only require 5 fighter levels, meaning its completely exploitable by 15/5 pal/ftrs. i wouldnt say that theres anything inherently wrong with that except that this pass is supposed to buff fighters, not paladins. yes, there would be some significant tradeoffs compared to pure pally, but i think +5 mp, + a bunch of to-hit and base dmg, more boosts, higher tac dcs, and 4 (only two really) more feats outweigh losing 4 cha, 3d6 light dmg, and avenging cleave. simply keep the current prereqs (or just make it require the lvl 8 wf feat) to avoid this issue completely. also, why even bother adding the ranged power bonus? i mean hey i wont mind for when i bust out my thrower, or bow if i go 12/6/2 and decide to do that, but the kensei tree being what it is and what you are proposing...doesnt support ranged at all. meh.

deadly strike: can this please either have its cd lowered a LOT or become something better? fighter is going to have a middle of the road crit profile, above average crit chance with average crit multiplier, so guaranteeing a crit every 20 seconds is really insignificant. the on vorpal portion is what you would be clicking this for. so, if this isnt going to change, it should have less than a 20 sec cd. maybe 6 seconds, since its a tier 5 after all.

weapon master: this is a really funny enhancement. various random people clamor for the fighter dps tree to be redesigned as weapon master, and you give them one very on the nose enhancement. and its ok, but its kind of pointless. once again, sure, ill take the free +3 dmg to my thrower or bow while youre handing it out, but once again why are you? a big chunk of fighter dps is tied up in weapon specific enhancements, meaning if you arent using them your dps is garbage anyway. also i like how one being the master of all weapons means they deal 3 more damage than a non master. honestly i think the real value of this enhancement is the lols its bringing me. meh.


regarding the people who want fighting style specific enhancements...do NOT cater to them. there is no way youll ever balance those remotely well, and all forum suggestions of that nature have been simple rehashes of things that other classes have, just less powerful. fighter should be built around fighter, not other classes.


anyway, id say the only thing that you absolutely must change is tightening back up the prereqs on one with the blade. given that, i am thinking that these dps buffs in combination with the dps buffs of 6 monk and 2 paladin will make 12 fighter a viable class again. pure? less sure...

[janave]

I agree with everything above, except the +1 saves from capstone not being useful, every single +1 to saves a Fighter can get is much needed. One of the worst first time experience on Fighters is literally constantly failing saves, 2-3 trash casters can pretty much hold, stun, fear, spam-cast to death, any chance to avoid that is nice, especially if its "free", as in we would take the ability either way for other reasons.

I also think core 18 should be nearly as important as a capstone, lots of older core 18s are lackful beyond reason, and Kensai is no exception, the early +.5W from Vorpal is nice, but it really stops being useful too soon, not to mention sharing cd with boosting.

Suggestions:
A) Passive +1[W] to focus weapons
B) Each time you dont crit get +3 seeker, adds up to 5, resets on critting. + Permanent Vorpal to focus weapons

As for opportunity attack, a manually activated +W attack to trigger an effect that works similar to "Violence Begets Violence" from Shintao - would be interesting.

A tactical Fighter is a very "clicky intense" experience, and so it really have to be fun and rewarding to play -vs- something that just holds left button or toggles auto attack and finishes a quest 10 times faster, not to mention the hit 1-2 and empty a room type of playing.

[Axeyu]

In your mind, what is the distinction between "unique build defining features" and "powerful"?

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.

Alright, when I imagine a situation where dance of death is the capstone, does dervish become the tier 5 ability then? Because in that case I still see a strong reason to splash 12 ranger - in fact, I personally value boss DPS above that of efficient trash clearing, so I don't value dance of death as much as you seem to; and would much prefer the extra melee power and doublestrike.

So...I don't think your example really holds here. But that is besides the point, because in order to revive the fighter class we will need both competitive tier 5 enhancements and more unique and powerful cores on the path to 20. If things like "one cut" and "spiritual bond" persist as core abilities (or anywhere, for that matter), then the class will remain uninteresting.

You are missing the point. You may not agree with the usefulness of DoD (which leads me to wonder how much you have actually used it), but the point is still that locking such a unique ability away behind 20 levels is extremely limiting to the number of builds that get to use it.

The 18/20 cores can have "unique" features, but not "class defining". Otherwise a 17 fighter/3X would not be able to be defined as a fighter, which is utterly stupid.

The tempest cores are not build defining, yet pure ranger is competetive. So your premise that you need to have it is clearly wrong.

I get that you want fighters to be competetive again, so do I, but just really don't want them to get the barb-treatment, which was balancing the lackluster class almost soley by extremely powerful 18/20 cores. It kills off multiclassing. We need more multiclassing, not less.

[Cetus]

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.



You are missing the point. You may not agree with the usefulness of DoD (which leads me to wonder how much you have actually used it), but the point is still that locking such a unique ability away behind 20 levels is extremely limiting to the number of builds that get to use it.

The 18/20 cores can have "unique" features, but not "class defining". Otherwise a 17 fighter/3X would not be able to be defined as a fighter, which is utterly stupid.

The tempest cores are not build defining, yet pure ranger is competetive. So your premise that you need to have it is clearly wrong.

I get that you want fighters to be competetive again, so do I, but just really don't want them to get the barb-treatment, which was balancing the lackluster class almost soley by extremely powerful 18/20 cores. It kills off multiclassing. We need more multiclassing, not less.

It's quite obvious at this point that you're playing a game of semantics. Your 17/3x fighter example presumably acquired all of the cores leading up to that fighter level...right? These cores would contain "class-defining enhancements" of their own - so...maybe you want to rethink that example (unless you think every core should have banal enhancements, with nothing fitting your definition of "class-defining")? It's fairly obvious that a 17 fighter is not as much of a fighter as a level 20 fighter, so if you go toward 20 and acquire the remaining 2 cores - you're now...more of a fighter! Alright, I'm done beating that dead horse...lol

Here's a simple truism that I don't think you're getting: If incentive exists to go toward 18 or 20 levels in a class, you will *always* lock away outstanding abilities available from multiclassing (if the incentives for and against either decision are designed successfully). Otherwise, what gave you the incentive to go that far into the class? There has to be something unique or enticing to drive you in the pure direction - otherwise, 10/10 times you'll choose multiclassing.

Conversely, by multiclassing, you'll *always* lock away outstanding pure or near-pure options. This is what the road to balance between pure and multiclass characters looks like. Otherwise, you'll have crappy capstone or near capstone abilities, and nobody will ever go the pure or near-pure route (which has been the situation for fighters throughout the past several years). So, I really don't know what in the world you're talking about. Fighter will offer quite powerful multiclassing options already, it's pure form is what needs the most love here.

In other words...

THE ENTIRE POINT of pushing for the inclusion of unique and powerful abilities in the level 18 and level 20 cores, is precisely to provide incentive for people to class above 12 levels of fighter, and bring purer fighter builds back from the dead.

In the end, my fundamental stance is firmly on the side of making pure fighters competitive. All of the multiclassing potential will stem from a solid holistic revamp of the class - this includes adding exciting capstones.

It seems that your vision for the class revolves around attaching all of the shiny stuff to tier 5 so you can pick it all up as a 12 fighter. Then, you never have to move another fighter level forward, and get to multiclass out the rest. That's a terrible place for the class to be, in my opinion. And just as an fyi, I happen to like the way the frenzy tree is set up insofar as the incentive to go pure or near-pure is concerned - so there's another somewhat related point of disagreement.

[Axeyu]

And just as an fyi, I happen to like the way the frenzy tree is set up insofar as the incentive to go pure or near-pure is concerned - so there's another somewhat related point of disagreement.

I think this is the entire disagreement. I think that the way the FB tree is set up is horrible and damaging for the game as it almost completely shut out any multiclassing. The result of that design is that 90% of barbarians are pure and 5% are 18/2x, leaving only 1 in 20 barbarians to be multiclassed. In my opinion that is a disaster and a huge failure.


I don't get your problem with the tempest approach. Pure rangers are highly competetive, and the tempest tree is still good and offers a unique feature to multiclassed builds.

[Claver]

We are currently looking at some solid Kensai changes.

Overall..good improvements. I could see myself taking 12 levels for the power surge but need a bit more enticement to go to 18 or 20.

SUGGESTION: Change the Vorpal effect on One Cut to a static ability (there is enough button pushing already in this tree) and consider increasing this to Sovereign Vorpal at level 20

Tier 5 needs a bit more as well to compete with other trees.

Some more defense within the tree would also be very helpful (see suggestions re: Weapon Master below)

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Does the +1 critical multiplier stack with the +1 critical damage multiplier on Good Death? If not, it should.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

This is the best change overall - the bonus to all stats makes me want to try new builds. It will be interesting to see how this stacks with Know the Angels and facilitates Spell Swords builds. Strange to think the best Kensei may be a Great Crossbow user.

Alacrity:

• +2 to all ability scores
• +15% Doublestrike
• +15% Doubleshot
• +4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
• +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

The extra action boosts and bonus to all abilities is a nice start but not quite enough to stay pure. Add an additional +15 melee/ranged Power and a static Sovereign Vorpal ability.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Keep this..the extra [W] makes Tier I more attractive...Can I assume this change will help Shinto Monk version of Reed in the Wind as well

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Glad to see a bonus to PRR...keep this please

[

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.

This is much more useful than might be obvious - nice synergy with all the critical multiplier/range enhancements throughout the tree. This is a very good addition to the tree. I vote to keep it in the final build please

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

The reduced cool down is a big help...30 seconds is way too long for a conditional melee attack. Keep this at 15 seconds please

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

The +20 Melee/Ranged Power is huge. It give me a reason to take this enhancement even if I am not a monk and provides a compelling reason to consider taking Tier 5 of the tree.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

Reduced cool down and elimination of the use of an action boost is a big improvement

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

I'm sure those who run the numbers can demonstrate + 3 damage adds up but its just not that sexy at first glance. Replace this with something else.

My vote is to replace it with an enhancement that bolsters defense, specifically, MRR (see Preternatural Deflection below)

I envision Kensei as being psionic/spiritual warriors with near precognitive abilities to parry incoming attacks and even block magic missles with their focus weapon liken to a Jedi Knight. Something like the Preternatural Deflection enhancement below would help give the tree a bit more flavor.

Preternatural Deflection (Tier V): Equipped weapons that are part of your focus gain +15 MRR, Superior Parrying, and provide the effects of a Shield Spell.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of the Spiritual Bond enhancement in the core of the tree. This feels clunky, doesn't seem to offer much benefit and adds more computations to a game that could benefit from streamlining to reduce the effects of lag.

I'd like to see Spiritual Bond replaced with something else. My suggestion is to replace it with a "Blind Fighting" ability to add more flavor and give a reason to invest in the Listen Skill as well as better support possible multiclass builds.

Blind Fighting: Action Boost: You gain a Psionic Bonus to Dodge equal to your Listen skill for 60 seconds.

[Saekee]

Overall..good improvements. I could see myself taking 12 levels for the power surge but need a bit more enticement to go to 18 or 20.

SUGGESTION: Change the Vorpal effect on One Cut to a static ability (there is enough button pushing already in this tree) and consider increasing this to Sovereign Vorpal at level 20

Tier 5 needs a bit more as well to compete with other trees.

Some more defense within the tree would also be very helpful (see suggestions re: Weapon Master below)





Does the +1 critical multiplier stack with the +1 critical damage multiplier on Good Death? If not, it should.



This is the best change overall - the bonus to all stats makes me want to try new builds. It will be interesting to see how this stacks with Know the Angels and facilitates Spell Swords builds. Strange to think the best Kensei may be a Great Crossbow user.



The extra action boosts and bonus to all abilities is a nice start but not quite enough to stay pure. Add an additional +15 melee/ranged Power and a static Sovereign Vorpal ability.



Keep this..the extra [W] makes Tier I more attractive...Can I assume this change will help Shinto Monk version of Reed in the Wind as well



Glad to see a bonus to PRR...keep this please

[

This is much more useful than might be obvious - nice synergy with all the critical multiplier/range enhancements throughout the tree. This is a very good addition to the tree. I vote to keep it in the final build please



The reduced cool down is a big help...30 seconds is way too long for a conditional melee attack. Keep this at 15 seconds please



The +20 Melee/Ranged Power is huge. It give me a reason to take this enhancement even if I am not a monk and provides a compelling reason to consider taking Tier 5 of the tree.



Reduced cool down and elimination of the use of an action boost is a big improvement



I'm sure those who run the numbers can demonstrate + 3 damage adds up but its just not that sexy at first glance. Replace this with something else.

My vote is to replace it with an enhancement that bolsters defense, specifically, MRR (see Preternatural Deflection below)

I envision Kensei as being psionic/spiritual warriors with near precognitive abilities to parry incoming attacks and even block magic missles with their focus weapon liken to a Jedi Knight. Something like the Preternatural Deflection enhancement below would help give the tree a bit more flavor.

Preternatural Deflection (Tier V): Equipped weapons that are part of your focus gain +15 MRR, Superior Parrying, and provide the effects of a Shield Spell.

As an aside, I'm not a fan of the Spiritual Bond enhancement in the core of the tree. This feels clunky, doesn't seem to offer much benefit and adds more computations to a game that could benefit from streamlining to reduce the effects of lag.

I'd like to see Spiritual Bond replaced with something else. My suggestion is to replace it with a "Blind Fighting" ability to add more flavor and give a reason to invest in the Listen Skill as well as better support possible multiclass builds.

Blind Fighting: Action Boost: You gain a Psionic Bonus to Dodge equal to your Listen skill for 60 seconds.

please put in blind fighting, awesome idea

[Nuclear_Elvis]

As stated elsewhere, the Fighter Class is too diverse to be condensed into just three Enhancement Trees. This is an opportunity to build up an entirely new tree, rather than attempt to pack in so much into one changed tree.

Having said that, Monk should not hold sway over a Fighter enhancement, if you are staying with only three trees and not expanding to 4 or more. All monk related requirements or flavor pushed into Fighter Class is beyond silly. If you want to play Monk Class - then play Monk.

As for multi-classing, I will repeat something from many posts on the Council - multi-classing should not be built into any Class tree. It is Serendipity that should be preserved for when one chooses to splash Classes in the multi-class process. The Fighter tree should be built to make a pure level 20 Fighter viable, with a logical progression of benefits and rewards for continuing on the path to level 20. There has been far too much tweaking, for too long, to take in special considerations of special/unique multi-class splashing. I see Kensei as the ultimate example of this, where Monk infected the tree to this point.

In fact, I'd rather the tree not even be named Kensei, if we only get 3 trees in Fighter. Name it "Weapon Master" or something, and remove all Monk factors.

[Cetus]

As stated elsewhere, the Fighter Class is too diverse to be condensed into just three Enhancement Trees. This is an opportunity to build up an entirely new tree, rather than attempt to pack in so much into one changed tree.

Having said that, Monk should not hold sway over a Fighter enhancement, if you are staying with only three trees and not expanding to 4 or more. All monk related requirements or flavor pushed into Fighter Class is beyond silly. If you want to play Monk Class - then play Monk.

As for multi-classing, I will repeat something from many posts on the Council - multi-classing should not be built into any Racial tree. It is Serendipity that should be preserved for when one chooses to splash Classes in the multi-class process. The Fighter tree should be built to make a pure level 20 Fighter viable, with a logical progression of benefits and rewards for continuing on the path to level 20. There has been far too much tweaking, for too long, to take in special considerations of special/unique multi-class splashing. I see Kensei as the ultimate example of this, where Monk infected the tree to this point.

In fact, I'd rather the tree not even be named Kensei, if we only get 3 trees in Fighter. Name it "Weapon Master" or something, and remove all Monk factors.

Agreed

[Tilomere]

Tempest capstone = Powerful
Dance of Death = unique build defining.

What is this double speak? Quad damage is unique, but 10% more damage is powerful?

Sorry. DoD is overpowered. Bear form is unique. If they nerf DoD at the same time as they release kensai, then the update will be a success. Otherwise you will see 14/6 builds running around just like paladin/ranger.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

What is this double speak? Quad damage is unique, but 10% more damage is powerful?

Sorry. DoD is overpowered. Bear form is unique. If they nerf DoD at the same time as they release kensai, then the update will be a success. Otherwise you will see 14/6 builds running around just like paladin/ranger.

12/6 doesnt work.

to have both +1 crit range and multi you either need 12 ranger levels or sacrifice dod. if it werent for that, i think 12/6/2 ftr/rgr/pal could be incredible, but as it is its straight up worse.

so fighter really has nothing to bring to the table as a splash class for a ranger.