Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[Severlin]

Greetings,

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

(I just wanted to say that these changes will likely be tweaked further as we do more DPS testing as we implement the changes and incorporate player feedback.)

Stalwart Defender

Stand Fast: When activated you also gain +4 bonus on all saves for 20 seconds.

Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Vanguard

Fix the bug with the DC of Shield Charge.

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Alacrity:

• +2 to all ability scores
• +15% Doublestrike
• +15% Doubleshot
• +4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
• +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

Tier One

Action Boost:
Attack Boost now adds +4/+6/+8 to hit and damage for 20 seconds.
Fix the bug where the 3rd Haste Boost says it lasts 30 seconds.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Tier Two

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Weapon Meditation is removed.

Ascetic Training:
Conditioning changed to +1/2/3 Fortitude Saves, +5/+10+15 Hit Points, +5/+10+15 Fortification

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy changed to Critical Mastery.
Add Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor.

Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Four

Critical Damage removed as it was combined into the tier three Critical Mastery.

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. Requirement changed to Weapon Focus.

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.)

Tier Five

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

Sev~

[skaught78]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

[Axeyu]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

[ComicRelief]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...

[ForgettableNPC]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

[Severlin]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

1/1/1

In the past I would list the cumulative cost and I just did that again out of habit. Apologies.

Sev~

[Seikojin]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

It has been shared a few times, but there is an order of necessity going on, and fighter was next on the list. I think Arty is next, but I can't search nor recall what was after fighter... Oh wait monk? Since Monk is terribly broken in design. They may push that off for a later date so they can fix it and druid at the same time.

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Well it won't stack with the others out there, so it won't be OP. However it does mean fighters will be critting hard fairly quickly.

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee.

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

Ninja'd by Sev.

Overall, I am looking forward to the changes, no matter how they come along. It does seem like being s&b will still be the way to go, but I will see how I fare as a kensai twf pure 20 fighter (which is what I wanted to be since day 1).

The stat boosts are awesome. I think removing requirements is clever. The t5's are good too, however the ranged stuff is lacking in the sense that you get generalized buffs, nothing immediately useful like a strike/shot combo. However I could see racial AA's liking some t5's here instead of the racial tree.

It will be interesting to see min/max doublestrike and shot builds for a bit on lam. See if they can eek out a few more pings of damage.

I still wish the specialization line just went away. Put it in tier 1 of the core, have it boost via cores, and add something in the specialization slots for different playstyles. Like anti-req formats, so you can pick one. And have it be swf, twf, and thf. Make the bonuses not always stack, so you can combo with barb or what-have-you, but not op.

Like replace the t1 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Savant with one handed weapon: Can benefit from the swf feat and use any shield you are skilled with.
2. Flourishing duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand strike chance.
3. Devastating heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing blow damage.

Like replace the t2 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Expert with one handed weapon: +5% doublestrike chance while SWF. (make bonuses not stack with other trees/abilities.)
2. Expert duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand double strike chance.
3. Expert heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing effect chance.

Like replace the t3 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Master with one handed weapon: +1 to hit and damage per core in Kensai when SWF
2. Master duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +5% offhand double strike chance and +1 per kensai core to hit and damage.
3. Master heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +2 per core to hit and damage.

Like replace the t4 specialization with a multi-selector clickie:
1. Tactical with one handed weapon (action boost): For 20 seconds, your SWF strikes hit 2 targets instead of 1.
2. Tactical duelist (action boost): For 20 seconds; While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% chance to daze your opponents who are hit by your attacks.
3. Tactical heavy weapon user (action boost): For 20 seconds; While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% to knock opponents down with your attacks (Str DC = 10+Str/Con mod+Tactical DC enhancers).

[vyvy3369]

While it's great that you're re-considering the requirements for Weapon Group Specialization, it still seems like it could use some improvement. Tier 1 has no req. Tier 2 requires Weapon Focus. Tier 3 requires Weapon Specialization, which requires Fighter 4. Tier 4 now requires Weapon Focus again, instead of Greater Weapon Focus which required Fighter 8. I don't think this makes sense to require Fighter 4 for a Tier 3 enhancement. Perhaps move Weapon Specialization to Tier 4 Weapon Group Specialization?

While I enjoy the active combat nature of melee, Opportunity Attack sounds like too much work to keep it up for 10 Melee Power. The intent seems to be similar to Follow Up from Vanguard, which increases Melee Power by 3/6/9 for 12s, but that ability is triggered based on an active attack that I would be using even without Follow Up. In my opinion, either increase the duration and make it function more like a mini-Blitz (which is the other ability it seems based on), or tie it into some other active attack(s) that we would be using anyway. For example, perhaps 1-2 stacks of 5-10 Melee Power, with the 10% chance per hit to add another stack, max of 2. Or for the other alternative, maybe have it activate some % of the time when using any tactical ability.

[DagazUlf]

Just to preface things, I started playing DDO in pre-beta with my incarnation of my favorite PnP Fighter, and I've been waiting very patiently for this enhancement pass because I'm still playing him! So far, it is really not feeling like there's enough being done here.

My observations/feedback:

- Enhancing Criticals and Tactical Feats do seem like a good route for Kensai
- Something a little more "interesting" at that Tier 4 slot would really help
- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy
- An additional tie-in from enhancements to the feats for beefing up Armor, or MRR, or PRR would help Fighters get a little more competitive
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

[CThruTheEgo]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

[hirmor]

Meh... Not much there... Deadly Strike should have a range variant that scale with range power...

[count_spicoli]

THese changes are ok and will def improve fighter. But seems mostly generic too me. SInce kensai is the combat specialty enhancement tree for fighter why not add some kind of tactics cooldown shortner. SOmething like the cooldowns of your tactics is recuced by 1/2/3 seconds cumulitive so you could effectively reduce your cooldowns from 15 to 9. Putting no tactical bonuses in this tree seems bad to me.

ALso the change to last stand is ok except in game right now it gives +4 con which my dwarven con build stalwart really likes . WOuld like to keep that. It also when you hit the hp boost it leaves your hp bar half empty. Would be cool if you made the hp bar full when you hit the hp boost since the cooldown is so long. RIght now it really does no good unless you got a johnny on the spot healer.

The change to power boost to all stats is muy bieno and the crit bonus in the tier 6 is really sweet. Overall i like it but would like to def see some tactics enhancements worked in.

[count_spicoli]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...

This is just plain wrong. As someone with 15 fighter past lives you already have the ability to customize your fighter to thf or twf with all the feats you get. I have played many twf fighter lives and they are far from underwelming.

[count_spicoli]

And if you dont like tactics which is a fighters specialty as they are hand to hand combat specialists why not play a pally or a barb. Then you can just swing away until your hearts content.

[count_spicoli]

But first and foremost sev i want to say these changes are good and all but if i cant play the game due to this mess lag going then what good are they?

[Grailhawk]

Kensei
13 To Hit (Kensei Focus, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
17.5 Damage (Spiritual Bond, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
3 Seeker (Crtical Mastery)
19 Double Strike (Strike With No Thought, Alacrity)
0 Off Hand Double Strike)
0 Off Hand Proc
1 Crit Multiplier (Strike With No Thought)
5% Crit Chance (Keen Edge)
7 Extra Action Boosts (Alacrity)
30 Melee Power (Opportunity Attack, One with the Blade)
25 Armor Piercing (Shattering Strike, Strike at the Heart)



Tempest
7 To Hit (Whirling Blades)
16.85 Damage (Whirling Blades, Growing Storm, Dual Perfection (6.25 @ 60 STR))
3 Seeker (Critical Mastery)
10 Double Strike (Whirlwind, A Thousand Cuts)
25 Off Hand Double Strike (Dervish)
20 Off Hand Proc (Tempest, Whirlwind)
1 Crit Multiplier (Deflect Arrows)
0% Crit Chance
0 Extra Action Boosts
15 Melee Power (Dervish, A Thousand Cuts)
0 Armor Piercing
2d6 Effects (Storm Dance, Storm Tempest)

If we say Offhand procs are just a fancy kind of double strike Tempest goes to 32.5 double strike

Stat	Kensei	Tempest	Winner
Damage	17.5	16.85	Wash
To Hit	13	7	Kensei
Seeker	3	3	Wash
Double Strike	19	32.5	Tempest
Crit Multiplier	1	1	Wash
Crit Chance	5%	0	Kensei
Extra Action Boosts	7	0	Kensei
Melee Power	30	15	Kensei
Armor Piercing	25	0	Kensei

Base class Favored Enemy and Weapon Specialization feats kind of balance each other out +3 To Hit +4 Damage +8 Melee Power counters +10 FE Damage. But Ranger wins hands down at self healing.

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

Suggestions

• Add some healing amp to one of the fighter trees add it in the core or as a rider on other good enhancements. You don't need barbarian levels here but you need fighters to have enough to make there weak healing options better
• Fighters need a second DPS oriented no Weapon and Shield tree or Fighter vanguard needs to do more for non W&S Fighters. Guess you could also update Harper a bit but that has bigger issue.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

[Grailhawk]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

Important part in bold.

This go a long way for any melee multi class build. My first thought when seeing this at level 6 was WOW to low level but thing taking a step back I realized it don'ts really make anything OP now as everyone has a crit multiplier by 20. This just opens up some options for classes that don't and probably should get a crit multiplier (Warpriest for instance) ... Or maybe this just sets the precedent so that we can give those classes a multiplier either way it really don't hurt anything now.

[vyvy3369]

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

Maybe I'm mis-reading it too, but I looked at it more as a Smite that has a blitz-like recharging mechanism. You start off with 2 charges. If you have fewer than 2 charges, every damaging attack has a 10% chance to give you another charge. Gaining charges has an internal cooldown of 1s. Which means that if you're attacking fast enough to constantly regenerate charges, you should basically be hitting this attack every 6s, but not sooner than that or you'll be wasting charges. Sounds like a huge pain.

[Grailhawk]

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

Where does the idea that this stacks with it self come from?

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an
opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

I read that as an active ability that is used to keep up a +10 melee power boost nearly 100% of the time.

No one attacks at less then 1 per second so I read this as a once per second you have a 10% chance to gain a charge.

So on average you will recharge at least one ever 10s.

Now I'm not sure if "but no more than once per second" means you only get one try per second or if it means you recharge and then cant recharge again for 1 second.

If only on try per second then on average this is a little bit more then a passive 5 melee power (6 i think).

If its the recharge delay then its worth more and on some builds will probably be essentially 100% up time of 10 melee power as the more attacks you make per second the more chance you have of getting it to recharge every second.