Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[Severlin]

Greetings,

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

(I just wanted to say that these changes will likely be tweaked further as we do more DPS testing as we implement the changes and incorporate player feedback.)

Stalwart Defender

Stand Fast: When activated you also gain +4 bonus on all saves for 20 seconds.

Last Stand: The passive portion of the enhancement is improved to be: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength, +10 Physical Resistance Rating, +10 Magical Resistance Rating, and +2 to the DCS of all Tactical Feats.

Vanguard

Fix the bug with the DC of Shield Charge.

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

Alacrity:

• +2 to all ability scores
• +15% Doublestrike
• +15% Doubleshot
• +4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
• +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

Tier One

Action Boost:
Attack Boost now adds +4/+6/+8 to hit and damage for 20 seconds.
Fix the bug where the 3rd Haste Boost says it lasts 30 seconds.

Reed In the Wind: Cooldown is reduced to 15 seconds. Damage increased to +1/+2/+3[W].

Tier Two

Improved Dodge AP cost changed to 1/1/1.
Improved Dodge now has a multi-selector.
Improved Defense: +2/+4/+6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Weapon Meditation is removed.

Ascetic Training:
Conditioning changed to +1/2/3 Fortitude Saves, +5/+10+15 Hit Points, +5/+10+15 Fortification

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy changed to Critical Mastery.
Add Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor.

Shattering Strike: Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds, Fortification loss no longer has a saving throw. No longer requires Weapon Mediation.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Four

Critical Damage removed as it was combined into the tier three Critical Mastery.

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

New: Strike at the Heart: Your weapon attacks have the Improved Destruction effect.

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. Requirement changed to Weapon Focus.

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.)

Tier Five

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

New: Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

Sev~

[skaught78]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

[Axeyu]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

[Kompera_Oberon]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Except that it is a Competence bonus, which is almost all other forms of crit multiplier bonus and so will not stack. So, not really.

Without any boost to self healing Fighters will still be backseat to Paladins and Barbarians who have that capability in spades.

[Dungeoner49]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

Aye, while I don't typically make multiclassed or self-heal-less charas such as fighters, they too need an update on their enhancements just like every other tree and class. I do too however think that arti's really need some serious increase in viability in epics as most of their damage comes from their rune arms which have saves that epic critters will almost always make on EE and to a slightly lesser extent EH difficulties. My 1st life lv 28 per shot bow based pure elven ranger has about 5x the lethality and 3.x the surviablility of my 1st life lv 25 repeater only pure warforged artificer when saves are involved. I know for a fact that while both repeaters and single target rune arms are devastating at low level to mid levels, but they lack the proper scaling that allows them to be good at high to epic levels as in EE Cabal for One I was barely shaving off a milimeter of a hobgoblins health on with 3 full repeater volleys or a full rune arm charge (its been 4+ months so I don't remember what rune arm) where my ranger is able to deal more than enough damage to kill a small squad while kiting at the top of ladder platform at the north end of the dungeon by myself in around 30 seconds or less thanks to the following enhancements, ED, and sneak damage from deepwood stalker: Pin, merciful shot, headshot, sniper shot, and " That annoying Skyrim Patella Meme". I also remember that I cried myself to sleep due to my lack of effective damage output after I finished Cabal with my artificer that night.

[ComicRelief]

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...

[ForgettableNPC]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

[Severlin]

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

1/1/1

In the past I would list the cumulative cost and I just did that again out of habit. Apologies.

Sev~

[DagazUlf]

Just to preface things, I started playing DDO in pre-beta with my incarnation of my favorite PnP Fighter, and I've been waiting very patiently for this enhancement pass because I'm still playing him! So far, it is really not feeling like there's enough being done here.

My observations/feedback:

- Enhancing Criticals and Tactical Feats do seem like a good route for Kensai
- Something a little more "interesting" at that Tier 4 slot would really help
- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy
- An additional tie-in from enhancements to the feats for beefing up Armor, or MRR, or PRR would help Fighters get a little more competitive
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

[count_spicoli]

THese changes are ok and will def improve fighter. But seems mostly generic too me. SInce kensai is the combat specialty enhancement tree for fighter why not add some kind of tactics cooldown shortner. SOmething like the cooldowns of your tactics is recuced by 1/2/3 seconds cumulitive so you could effectively reduce your cooldowns from 15 to 9. Putting no tactical bonuses in this tree seems bad to me.

ALso the change to last stand is ok except in game right now it gives +4 con which my dwarven con build stalwart really likes . WOuld like to keep that. It also when you hit the hp boost it leaves your hp bar half empty. Would be cool if you made the hp bar full when you hit the hp boost since the cooldown is so long. RIght now it really does no good unless you got a johnny on the spot healer.

The change to power boost to all stats is muy bieno and the crit bonus in the tier 6 is really sweet. Overall i like it but would like to def see some tactics enhancements worked in.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

- Opportunity Attack seems kind of goofy/kludgy

Agreed. As Sev wrote:

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

So the way I see this is you have 6 tries at 10% chance to go from 10 melee power to 20 melee power that only lasts 6 seconds? On top of that you only have 2 charges of this ability per rest.

Does the initial six seconds restart if you manage to get a second stack?

If you are a lucky enough to proc the 2nd stack on the first second of attack, then you have at most 7 seconds at +20 melee power?

This seems a lot like the old iteration of Master's Blitz and the challenges with getting stacks going combined with the limit of only 2 stacks total benefit.

I'm sure others here will have some ideas how to make this better. Unless I am missing something, it just doesn't look very worthwhile at the moment.

[Hobgoblin]

J
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

just to say-

Alacrity:
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

seems nice to me!

to compare - fb gets you +4 con and a small chance to deal massive damage
oc - 4 con sr hp and more healing amp
rav - 4 hp and pk rage type ability


kotc - 7d6 good aligned, mp, and +4 cha
sad- +2 con+2 cha +10 prrmrr
van- mostly ds and 1w on shields

ranger
not going there - as the power creep is strong with that one

so it seems in line with them right now

[CThruTheEgo]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

[Grailhawk]

Nothing very original here compared with previous class revamps. It would be nice if these revamps did something to distinguish the classes, rather than homogenize them. That's my opinion anyway.

+1 crit multiplier available at level 6 is a low level for a powerful ability. Reminds me of swashbuckler. Coupled with the stalwart defender tree, a 6 level fighter splash will offer a great deal of both offense and defense. Are you all (devs) sure this is the route you want to take? I realize many have expressed dislike that the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancements have been either tier 5s or level 12/18 cores and how that favors pure classes over multiclass builds, but with a change such as this we could see a 6 fighter splash become the new standard for many melee builds. It is definitely a change in favor of multiclass builds, which we haven't really had much of lately, so maybe it is an appropriate change.

Important part in bold.

This go a long way for any melee multi class build. My first thought when seeing this at level 6 was WOW to low level but thing taking a step back I realized it don'ts really make anything OP now as everyone has a crit multiplier by 20. This just opens up some options for classes that don't and probably should get a crit multiplier (Warpriest for instance) ... Or maybe this just sets the precedent so that we can give those classes a multiplier either way it really don't hurt anything now.

[hirmor]

Meh... Not much there... Deadly Strike should have a range variant that scale with range power...

[Seikojin]

Really?! Like really really?
How many times are you going to tweak around with fighter? I've lost count of how many times you have messed with this class...

Meanwhile, classes that people want to play that are falling way behind like wizard, arti, druid get left in the dust AGAIN...

Any hope for some tweaking of these classes?

It has been shared a few times, but there is an order of necessity going on, and fighter was next on the list. I think Arty is next, but I can't search nor recall what was after fighter... Oh wait monk? Since Monk is terribly broken in design. They may push that off for a later date so they can fix it and druid at the same time.

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Well it won't stack with the others out there, so it won't be OP. However it does mean fighters will be critting hard fairly quickly.

Not to derail a Kensai specific thread, but there are those of us who play fighters yet don't like playing the "clickie cooldown" game, who don't particularly care for boosts or tactics. There's still no specific ENs for TWF or THF. The previous changes to SD were good in that it removed a lot of shield-specific ENs, but there could be (and should be IMO) more for the TWF and THF fighters. I've always asserted that fighters are (arguably) the most flexible class, and yet we seem pigeon-holed by the ENs into being "specialists" (kensai) focusing on specific classes of weapons or "sword & board" - no TWF, no THF, and no "bowmen" (though, yes, the case can be made that if you're going to focus on using a bow, be a ranger, but that is besides the point). I'm not suggesting there be a fighter tempest or arcane archer EN lines, per se, but there are so many possible builds with fighter (DEX based, STR based, INT based, THW, TWF, SWF, etc.) the current ENs just feel limiting.

But no one listens to Zathras...

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee.

Wait, so the Improved Dodge AP cost is getting changed to 1/2/3 for 6 AP total?
Why not just keep it at 2/2/2? What's the point in changing it?

Ninja'd by Sev.

Overall, I am looking forward to the changes, no matter how they come along. It does seem like being s&b will still be the way to go, but I will see how I fare as a kensai twf pure 20 fighter (which is what I wanted to be since day 1).

The stat boosts are awesome. I think removing requirements is clever. The t5's are good too, however the ranged stuff is lacking in the sense that you get generalized buffs, nothing immediately useful like a strike/shot combo. However I could see racial AA's liking some t5's here instead of the racial tree.

It will be interesting to see min/max doublestrike and shot builds for a bit on lam. See if they can eek out a few more pings of damage.

I still wish the specialization line just went away. Put it in tier 1 of the core, have it boost via cores, and add something in the specialization slots for different playstyles. Like anti-req formats, so you can pick one. And have it be swf, twf, and thf. Make the bonuses not always stack, so you can combo with barb or what-have-you, but not op.

Like replace the t1 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Savant with one handed weapon: Can benefit from the swf feat and use any shield you are skilled with.
2. Flourishing duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand strike chance.
3. Devastating heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing blow damage.

Like replace the t2 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Expert with one handed weapon: +5% doublestrike chance while SWF. (make bonuses not stack with other trees/abilities.)
2. Expert duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% offhand double strike chance.
3. Expert heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% glancing effect chance.

Like replace the t3 specialization with a multi-selector:
1. Master with one handed weapon: +1 to hit and damage per core in Kensai when SWF
2. Master duelist: While wielding two weapons, you gain +5% offhand double strike chance and +1 per kensai core to hit and damage.
3. Master heavy weapon user: While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +2 per core to hit and damage.

Like replace the t4 specialization with a multi-selector clickie:
1. Tactical with one handed weapon (action boost): For 20 seconds, your SWF strikes hit 2 targets instead of 1.
2. Tactical duelist (action boost): For 20 seconds; While wielding two weapons, you gain +10% chance to daze your opponents who are hit by your attacks.
3. Tactical heavy weapon user (action boost): For 20 seconds; While using a two handed weapon weapon, you gain +10% to knock opponents down with your attacks (Str DC = 10+Str/Con mod+Tactical DC enhancers).

[Grailhawk]

Kensei
13 To Hit (Kensei Focus, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
17.5 Damage (Spiritual Bond, Power Surge, Alacrity, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Master)
3 Seeker (Crtical Mastery)
19 Double Strike (Strike With No Thought, Alacrity)
0 Off Hand Double Strike)
0 Off Hand Proc
1 Crit Multiplier (Strike With No Thought)
5% Crit Chance (Keen Edge)
7 Extra Action Boosts (Alacrity)
30 Melee Power (Opportunity Attack, One with the Blade)
25 Armor Piercing (Shattering Strike, Strike at the Heart)



Tempest
7 To Hit (Whirling Blades)
16.85 Damage (Whirling Blades, Growing Storm, Dual Perfection (6.25 @ 60 STR))
3 Seeker (Critical Mastery)
10 Double Strike (Whirlwind, A Thousand Cuts)
25 Off Hand Double Strike (Dervish)
20 Off Hand Proc (Tempest, Whirlwind)
1 Crit Multiplier (Deflect Arrows)
0% Crit Chance
0 Extra Action Boosts
15 Melee Power (Dervish, A Thousand Cuts)
0 Armor Piercing
2d6 Effects (Storm Dance, Storm Tempest)

If we say Offhand procs are just a fancy kind of double strike Tempest goes to 32.5 double strike

Stat	Kensei	Tempest	Winner
Damage	17.5	16.85	Wash
To Hit	13	7	Kensei
Seeker	3	3	Wash
Double Strike	19	32.5	Tempest
Crit Multiplier	1	1	Wash
Crit Chance	5%	0	Kensei
Extra Action Boosts	7	0	Kensei
Melee Power	30	15	Kensei
Armor Piercing	25	0	Kensei

Base class Favored Enemy and Weapon Specialization feats kind of balance each other out +3 To Hit +4 Damage +8 Melee Power counters +10 FE Damage. But Ranger wins hands down at self healing.

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

Suggestions

• Add some healing amp to one of the fighter trees add it in the core or as a rider on other good enhancements. You don't need barbarian levels here but you need fighters to have enough to make there weak healing options better
• Fighters need a second DPS oriented no Weapon and Shield tree or Fighter vanguard needs to do more for non W&S Fighters. Guess you could also update Harper a bit but that has bigger issue.

[IronClan]

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

I agree the current setup looks at first glance to put them some measure ahead of Paladin, and allows some more multiclass flexibility and more potential trade offs for multiclassing, and IMO the trade off of Paladin having better healing makes this perfectly fine.

Ranger is it's own problem, it needs a nerf, in terms of melee it's the best DPS, has DoD for AOE, while also being the best mitigation, and every bit as good self Healing as a Paladin. Ranger should probably be great single target DPS, bad AOE, and overall lower DPS than either Paladin or Fighter, with the current mitigation left alone. All ofc IMO.

[GlassCannon]

<snip> - Read the original post if you're confus.
Suggestions

• Add some healing amp to one of the fighter trees add it in the core or as a rider on other good enhancements. You don't need barbarian levels here but you need fighters to have enough to make there weak healing options better
• Fighters need a second DPS oriented no Weapon and Shield tree or Fighter vanguard needs to do more for non W&S Fighters. Guess you could also update Harper a bit but that has bigger issue.

Agreed. I retooled my Fighter when the trees went live then promptly parked him due to having only 1 truly "Frontline Raw DPS" tree. My Fighter has always been a "Huge HP, Huge Damage" build and uses a Greataxe. I second the motion to have a tree supplementary to this specific effort or an expansion on the current Kensei tree (like Kensei Mastery sub-tree that soaks up the rest of the 80 AP while providing amazing bonuses after level 12 or 16 or whatever).

As far as Multiclass Stacking goes, for the sake of balance I would make a lot of the Enhancements not stack with each other so I could keep my NPCs power levels under 9,000.

[ComicRelief]

*snip*

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee.

*snip*

Heh - I tend to think of fighters as the backbone on melee...or at least, they should be.