Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[janave]

Hey kids.. you can be better looking, smarter, quicker, stronger, more nimble and wise if you 'use' the 'Power Surge'.. Its the BEST in the game if you want to fight! .. Sounds like drug marketing.

You are making this look far stronger than it really is, thats why i really dont like paper calcs, you go in game group up and wont be able to hit anything on a Kensai because the mechs, barbs, wlocks, etc...have already dropped the mobs in nano seconds. So i guess that leaves kensai with some raid utility? spamming improved sunder maybe...

For design decisions
Gameplay > Spreadsheets

If anything 'power surge' is a nice all-saves buff, which is much needed for a FTR. I'd personally just make it +12 STR, and +4 all stats if 18th core taken, +8 all stats when capstone taken. That would be a nice buff, without the suggestion that one has to MC into fighter for best ability scores.

Id rather have Fighters benefit more from the Fighter cores.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

For design decisions
Gameplay > Spreadsheets

Id rather have Fighters benefit more from the Fighter cores.

this.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

All of the collective arguments reinforce a going opinion - that Fighter should be the first Class to expand beyond just three Enhancement Trees. The Kensei tree, while an attempt to reflect version 3.5 rules, does not have a solid "fan base" cheering on the monk aspects, and frankly I don't mind if all monk related stuff in the tree goes away (which apparently it will).

But, some food for thought, and this is coming from a player who despises Monk in D&D of all rules/types, much less DDO -- there should be more serious thought given to preserving a "Kensei" tree while building up a new tree called something toward "Weapon Master" or such that offers variations.

I keep repeating this (and will while the tree editing process churns on) -- you are trying to box in too much stuff into a single DPS tree for the entire Fighter Class. Think about this - one tree, just one, for a Class named "Fighter," that is built for DPS. The Class isn't called "Defender" it is called "Fighter." Where are the DPS trees? You could have an array of Trees here for this utility class:
- A Tree to benefit Ranged Fighters.
- A Tree to benefit Thrown Weapons Fighters.
- A Tree to benefit Unarmed Fighters (oh wait, 3.5 Rules already forced that on us, and it's called "Kensei").
- A Tree to benefit SWF, TWF, and/or THF (each of which theoretically could have their own Tree in this Class).

And these could all be in addition to the StB trees (Defensive trees) in this Fighter Class.

This is also about vision - concepts - the Way Ahead. Is it really that hard to expand beyond three Enhancement Trees in a Class?

[Claver]

C) Hit to the Coin pouch – you stun foes while in combat – 5% proc rate – once per 20 sec

Rename this Kick to the Bread Basket Combine the basic unskilled kick attack with the "caught in the web" animation to make it look like someone got kicked in the unmentionables.

I don't think I would be the only DDO player to take a sadistic and childish joy in incapacitating Ogres with a kick to the jimmies. An overthetop ability like this would be enough to make me want to take 12 levels of Kensei or more to access a "fun" special attack. it doesn't have to be all about power..

Lots of good "tactics" ideas here Propane. There could have been a "Dirty Fighting" tactics progression in the Kensei tree that would have made it more interesting but realistically, there is not enough time for Turbine to rewrite the tree if they want it to go out in April/May.

I would propose a compromise to Severin and any other Devs who may read this:

Launch the Kensei next update (U31) as planned but then in the following update (U32) add a few more Fighter Feats (such as was done with armor and tactics) that incorporate "Dirty Fighting Tactics" such as those proposed by Propane (Glare in he Eyes, Sand in the Face - blinding attack) and (Hit to the Coin Pouch/ Kick to the Bread Basket - stunning attack) as well as some of the good ideas proposed by other posters in this thread (such as Blind Fighting suggestion) that otherwise would take too long to implement in time for U31.

Additional Fighter Feats could potentially provide more reason to stay pure or at least take more levels of Fighter even if not explicitly linked to the Kensei Tree.

- Make the new feats have a relatively high minimum Fighter level requirement (say 10+)

- Make some of the new feats "Tactics Attacks" that would benefit someone specializing in Tactics via Kensei and/or racial trees

A tactics Kensei has Stunning Blow and Trip but really needs a third or fourth tactic (like monks Stunning Fist) to cycle through to make a dedicated tactics build fun and effective - and Sunder doesn't count, it needs to be an incapacitating attack for self defense. Extra Dirty Fighting Tactics feats would bolster the Kensei tree.

[changelingamuck]

Alacrity:
I just miss something that would make it worth a consideration to be a fighter in light or no armor, heavy armor is already very powerful and need no improvement at all. I just have no better idea as being centered in light armor (you are in no armor with One with the Blade anyway) and maybe giving evasion and this with similar reasons as a bard who can get evasion already.
Even more Maximum Dexterity bonus and Dodge cap while wearing light armor is also possible.

Improved Mobility removed.
Add Athletic Mastery: +1/+2/+3 Maximum Dexterity Bonus and Dodge Cap, -1/-2/-3 Armor Check Penalty. Works in any armor. doe's Heavy Armor need furthermore improvement?

I agree that there should be some strengthening of cloth and light armor users in this tree. I had pretty much the same sentiments.

I don't believe that this strengthening of cloth/light armor should be included in Alacrity, which is the level 20 capstone, though. Nearly all of the cloth and light armor users who take fighter levels will be splashing at least one other class (monk, rogue, wizard, whatever).

My preference would be that Athletic Mastery would offer +2/+4/+6 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, +1/+2//+3 Dodge Cap, -2/-4/-6 Armor Check Penalty, and +1/+2/+3 Dodge while wearing no armor or light armor. And medium and heavy armor users would get the benefits from Athletic Mastery that are in your quote here. So, basically, cloth/light armor-wearers would get twice the Maximum Dexterity Bonus and twice the Armor Check Penalty reduction, the same Dodge Cap increase of +1/+2/+3, and the added benefit of +1/+2/+3 Dodge to match the Dodge Cap increase.

I think that cloth armor wearing melee characters are in a especially bad spot in the game now. And this is an ideal tree to give them a little boost to compensate for the major disadvantage of their lack of PRR. I'm not sure about the idea of giving out evasion in this tree though. I'm typically not a fan of giving outside classes access to benefits that were previously exclusive to specific classes. Evasion is characteristic of rogues and monks and I think they should maintain that uniqueness (well, except for bards and shadowdancers have it now, but that wasn't a great move, IMO).

[Aelonwy]

without the suggestion that one has to MC into fighter for best ability scores.

I'm sorry but that says it all right there. I understand that just about any stat now can be used for combat but I cannot wrap my head around how calmly everyone is accepting a +8 to all stat surge and a capstone that is half the completionist feat and acting underwhelmed by it. In my opinion both need a multi-selector. If this is about fighter saves, boost them some other way, say by increasing Resilient Defense or putting a bonus to saves in Surge but if these ability score bonuses are about combat then put them in multi-selector format so people have to make a choice.

I still think fighters need some kind of healing. Either improved healing from potions or maybe something similar to Dwarven Iron Stomach where every time a fighter drinks anything they heal some amount based on fighter level?

Also count me as another person who would prefer Weapon Focus to really matter, that is:

I envisioned it being an enhancement selector much like the one a fighter has in the first level of the tree, and dependent on that choice.

that is to say, if you chose heavy blades, maybe your 'special' active enhancement would be a sweeping strike. if you chose axes, maybe it's limb chop, etc etc.

basically making different types of dps fighters, much like there are different types of dps sorcs.

would this mean some players would prefer one path over another because of the enhancement? absolutely! that's how you create build diversity... more choices. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the enhancements (while different) are not on a completely different level of usefulness, but rather offer a different kind of use.

Oh and while we are it, its always bugged me that there is a Two Handed Fighting Style but there isn't a Kensai Focus for just that style, yes you can choose axes or heavy blades or hammers but if you are 2HF you probably choose to use all three and especially as a fighter (rather than barbarian) you have the feats to take multiple improv crit feats. If there is a Druidic Weapons option, and a Martial Arts option, there ought to be an inclusive 2HF option that excludes any non-two handed melee weapon.

[legendkilleroll]

Cant recall where it was but sure it happened, maybe someone will link it, when Sev said swashbuckler was where they wanted melee's to be, now we already have things like barb and rangers that are above that, now swashes who use light picks or hand axe can benefit from the multiplier so that bar is raised again

As for kensai, i dont think it looks to bad atm, guess will have to see how they do compared to others when lamannia is up,
I like the ideas about different weapon types doing different things, you already choose a group of weapons anyway so as long as one option isnt so far above the rest people will have some different choices to make when selecting weapon group

I do think the 18 core needs to change, i was thinking a multi selector, you could have

Damage option, on crits/vorpals, per hit or whatever

Defensive, ofc nothing like barb gets with healing as that would be too much i think but maybe add something like vampirism to weapons

Support, maybe something to do with tactical abilities, current or a new one, bard got those awesome freeze abilities after all, add some effects that hinder the mob

Sure others will have better suggestions than i do, I dont want to see anything OP, just some ideas as atm the 18 core isnt worth it, classes really need to differ from one another, i know alot always want the crit boosts but then its just the same, has to be some reason to take more fighter levels.

[Selvera]

Thanks Sev, great to get some insight onto what's happening here.

So let me give all of my opinions, because opinions.

Stalwart Defender
Ok, nice to get a capstone buff. I like giving a little bit of incentive to go pure (any class/tree) in this world of everything is multi-classed. Prr/Mrr fits stalwart defender very well.

Vanguard
Bug fixes are always good.
Would also be good to fix the display bug for the shield specialization tree. (Testing has said that it does increase damage, but it does not show up on the inventory damage numbers).

Kensai

Core Abilities

Strike with No Thought: This is something that Kensai needed to catch up with other high-powered melee trees. Sticking it in the level 6 core is an interesting place for it, we'll see how this effects multi classing. previously, strike with no thought was rather lackluster for multi-classed, so it's good to give it a buff.

Power Surge: I like the all-stats buff, opens up more options without significantly increasing the power of the ability.

Alacrity: I like the all-stats buff, opens up more options without significantly increasing the power of the ability.


Tier One

Action Boost: Attack boost seems to be very powerful in heroic, not sure if it will hold up in epics. I would probably start with attack boost, then at around level 20 reset enhancements and pick up haste boost.

Reed In the Wind: I like the buffs, much needed. I might consider having/using it now, as it seems pretty cool, however it's at the same tier as haste boost, so it might remain unused for this reason, unless I'm filling in points to get to 30 for the T5's.

Tier Two

Improved Dodge/Improved Defense: Looks ok, however why did you pick 2/4/6 PRR for improved defense instead of 3/6/10?

Weapon Meditation I'm okay with this. Meditation was rather difficult to use in parties except sometimes while preparing for the boss.

Ascetic Training: I like the conditioning change. Unsure of if contemplation could use a similar buff.

Weapon Group Specialization: On one hand I like this change, on the other hand I feel like this is a huge buff in heroics and much lesser a buff in epics. We'll have to see how this turns out. I would have suggested it be +1 hit/damage and +1 melee(or ranged) power, +1 hit/+2 damage +1 melee(or ranged) power for 2 handed and non-repeating crossbows.

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy Yep, updated, good.

Improved Mobility/Athletic Mastery: makes sense, as fighters are supposed to be the heavy armor masters.

Shattering Strike: DC could have been tactics based, it's okay removing the save I guess.

Weapon Group Specialization: Similar to my note above, but at this tier I would have suggested +2 melee/ranged power (instead of more damage).

Tier Four

New: Opportunity Attack: Interesting, might be useful, might be under-powered, we'll see how effective it

New: Strike at the Heart: Ok.

Weapon Group Specialization: See above, would have suggested this tier get +2 melee/ranged power (instead of more damage).

(We are discussing the possibility of another enhancement in this tier that we are not ready to reveal.) - This sounds like a good idea, I'm excited to hear more.

Tier Five

A Good Death: Looks good.

One with the Blade: Was always confused to what centering did if you weren't multi-classed monk. Also not sure why only melee weapons center.

Deadly Strike: Looks good.

New: Weapon Master: Looks good. It would make sense if this hand the weapon specialization pre-req instead of keen edge.



Kensai abilities that weren't touched that I think should be:

Spiritual Bond: It would be cool if the insight bonuses granted by this would increase spell-power when used with implements.

One Cut: Kensai's have a lot of action boosts to keep track of, especially if you stack them with epic-destany action boosts. Would it be problematic if this was passive vorpal while centered?

Keen Edge: Fix the bug to allow it to work with handwraps.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...[truncated]...Would it be problematic if this was passive vorpal while centered?

To specifically critique this one item - if Kensei is the only DPS/weapon focused tree we get, and no 4th tree is built (or other successive trees), then the Monk pre-requisites should all be removed. If we only have one single DPS tree in Fighter, regardless lore of 3.5 rules, this tree should not force Monk Class into the tree, period. The "Centered" requirement should not ever exist in Kensei, going forward, if this is the only DPS/weapon focused tree.

[Phil7]

I want to raise some awarness on the fact that S&B Fighter is very very strong at the moment in end game with proper gear (and past lives) if he focuses on the vanguard tree. The thing is people are busy ER/IRing their warlocks/mechanics or whatever and you see almost 0 fighters out there.
You can't see how strong he is if there is no1 out there to show you, but trust me my main is a S&B toon. I keep hearing that Paladin is better, but Pally is just easier, with more panic buttons and higher innate saves. The Fighter relies on Cocoon, that is true, but he is a beast... everything is just perma stunned on EEs, kill count is always very high, crit numbers are just mad, and survivability... I can only think of 2-3 other classes that can compete with that.
It's nice of course that you change Kensei, because there was just no reason to invest in it and I never did on my build anyway. And also nice that you buff the Staltwart Defender capstone, cause you have to lose ur perma-stun capstone for it. But please be careful about making him too strong, because once people start IRing into PDK fighters and hit the epic levels you will see how strong he actually is. And then every1 and their grandma will be playing S&B with no freaking clue of what they are doing, spoiled by the relaxing gameplay of their warlocks.

[count_spicoli]

There is no clean tech to reduce cooldowns on other abilities. Similar things in the past were hacked into the script system and somewhat wonky.

Sev~

thanks to the reply sev but this statement is paticularly alarming. What i get from this is that anything that requires real coding or new coding aint gonna happen. Only rehashed enhancements that already exist like crit multiplier, prr/mrr , dmg boosts. This has a feel of we are to busy with other things(arkham) to bother with ddo.

[Selvera]

To specifically critique this one item - if Kensei is the only DPS/weapon focused tree we get, and no 4th tree is built (or other successive trees), then the Monk pre-requisites should all be removed. If we only have one single DPS tree in Fighter, regardless lore of 3.5 rules, this tree should not force Monk Class into the tree, period. The "Centered" requirement should not ever exist in Kensei, going forward, if this is the only DPS/weapon focused tree.

Kensai can become centered with a T5 ability, which they can get at level 12. Is it so bad to require being centered to use a level 18 core ability in the same tree?

[changelingamuck]

thanks to the reply sev but this statement is paticularly alarming. What i get from this is that anything that requires real coding or new coding aint gonna happen. Only rehashed enhancements that already exist like crit multiplier, prr/mrr , dmg boosts. This has a feel of we are to busy with other things(arkham) to bother with ddo.

It can also mean that, based on financial projections, it might not look like DDO would be able to generate a high enough profit margin to justify the cost of the amount of time and labor required for such coding. It's not like they're going to devote more time and labor to a different project just because they're really jazzed up about it. I mean, they have people who do maths to determine how to allocate their resources in order to generate the most $$$. Because it's a business and this is how capitalism works. And if they're not doing something, I think it's a safe bet to assume that they have reason to believe that doing that something wouldn't generate enough $$$ to justify the cost. [No, I don't have any inside information relevant to this. Just making a point about the workings of businesses in general.]

[IronClan]

Ranger also wins because it has Stalker as a second tree to pick up more DPS, Fighters next best DPS tree is Harper.

These changes probably put Kensei/Fighter ahead of Paladins when looking at DPS but Paladins have them beat hands down at survival do to much better self healing.

I agree the current setup looks at first glance to put them some measure ahead of Paladin, and allows some more multiclass flexibility and more potential trade offs for multiclassing, and IMO the trade off of Paladin having better healing makes this perfectly fine.

Ranger is it's own problem, it needs a nerf, in terms of melee it's the best DPS, has DoD for AOE, while also being the best mitigation, and every bit as good self Healing as a Paladin. Ranger should probably be great single target DPS, bad AOE, and overall lower DPS than either Paladin or Fighter, with the current mitigation left alone. All ofc IMO.

[Jetrule]

I am satisfied with the changes to Kensai except..

I would love to see weapon group thrown receive better bonuses for non shuriken throwing weapons as weapon focus crossbows does for non repeater crossbows.

I would like to see the psionic strength bonus remain 8 and other abilities +4.



Stalwart defender needs more work to be comparable to Paladin Sacred defender. They have nothing to compare to Paladin self healing and thus are inferior tanks, even though they have roughly the same defenses in the Fighter Stalwart Defender tree as Paladin does in the Sacred Defender tree. I would love to see it balanced in a different way and one geared more towards pure or nearly pure Fighter tanks.


I would ask for a +10 healing and repair amp bonus to Stalwart cores beyond the second (lvl 3) core. For the lvl. 12 core, let any healing or repair potion also add a secondary effect. Like the Dwarven potion drinking enhancement, Iron Stomach. I would suggest a selector for the Cure serious wounds/repair serious damage spell as the extra effect. And for the Level 20 capstone or 18 core let any potion drank also cast the Panacea spell.

If you are determined to keep self healing away from fighter I would like to see Stalwart focused Fighters be more resistant to physical damage than any other character could achieve. To that end I would suggest a Stacking +2 a.c. and 5 Prr. bonus to each defender Core except the capstone which could easily stand a +10 a.c. and +20 prr. 10 mrr. Rather than the proposed 10/10. I would also suggest adding 5 prr and mrr to each 3rd tier enhancement tied to Stalwart stance. And doubling the bonuses of the defensive action boost. If a fighter cannot self heal A pure fighter defender should be the most resistant to damage character there is.

[IronClan]

My first thought when seeing this at level 6 was WOW to low level but thing taking a step back I realized it don'ts really make anything OP now as everyone has a crit multiplier by 20. This just opens up some options for classes that don't and probably should get a crit multiplier (Warpriest for instance) ... Or maybe this just sets the precedent so that we can give those classes a multiplier either way it really don't hurt anything now.

I agree with you on this score, I think putting it at 12 or 18 would be too "generic" to similar to every other Class, and IMO make Fighters more difficult to multiclass than they should be. We already need 12 fighter for Powersurge +8 to everything.

IMO Fighter should be multiclass friendly and as long as you can't Stack Holysword etc. with 6 Fighter levels for X2 crit (which you obviously can't do because they are typed the same) I don't see a problem. I agree it does Help some potential Divine melees, though I really think Warpriest needs to have it's own crit expansion for "Deity favored weapons" when that time comes.

The place where this gets Juicy is making mix and match bard snyergies... but these weapons are very weak in general and the potential for making a 19-20 HEAVY Pick with a X5 multiplier already exists with Holysword... so I don't see a LIGHT pick with 19-20X5 from a Swash/Fighter multiclass all that concerning myself.

[IronClan]

I want to raise some awarness on the fact that S&B Fighter is very very strong at the moment in end game with proper gear (and past lives) if he focuses on the vanguard tree. The thing is people are busy ER/IRing their warlocks/mechanics or whatever and you see almost 0 fighters out there.
You can't see how strong he is if there is no1 out there to show you, but trust me my main is a S&B toon. I keep hearing that Paladin is better, but Pally is just easier, with more panic buttons and higher innate saves. The Fighter relies on Cocoon, that is true, but he is a beast... everything is just perma stunned on EEs, kill count is always very high, crit numbers are just mad, and survivability... I can only think of 2-3 other classes that can compete with that.
It's nice of course that you change Kensei, because there was just no reason to invest in it and I never did on my build anyway. And also nice that you buff the Staltwart Defender capstone, cause you have to lose ur perma-stun capstone for it. But please be careful about making him too strong, because once people start IRing into PDK fighters and hit the epic levels you will see how strong he actually is. And then every1 and their grandma will be playing S&B with no freaking clue of what they are doing, spoiled by the relaxing gameplay of their warlocks.

Congratz you enjoy your build nothing wrong with that... However mathematically speaking there's no way a fighter Vanguard can keep up with a Paladin presently and the paladin has innate self healing on top of the DPS advantage. This is to say nothing of Ranger. A fighter right now without multiclassing help (I.E paladin or Monk levels) is liable to be rolling with "only save on a 20" saves in EE and LE content.

No only that but a Fighter S&B to get their crit range bonus must forgo T5 of Vanguard, to take Keen Edge from Kensei which is not nothing if you like Shield rush. Which reminds be we need to bug Sev about Fighter Vanguard effectively having no T5's due to the need to take Keen edge...

Last I saw on Lam DPS tests showed Vanguards taking 120-140 seconds to beat down the giant Kobold
Ranger's in the same time frame were down to 40-60 seconds...

The shield+heavy armor is NOT better mitigation, they are arguably similar to Evasion/Light armor + PRR, this is due to the fact that once you have about 100 PRR the opportunity cost of increasing PRR from Heavy armor (no evasion) becomes steep, it becomes steeper still when adding a Shield to replace evasion, it literally halves your DPS. So the trade off that should be there doesn't exist... there's no reason to use a Shield when you can get just as much/more mitigation from Ranger while doubling your DPS at the same time.

BTW Ranger doubles the DPS of a Holysword Vanguard, NOT a Fighter Vanguard who's missing the crit multiplier. After this update though they should be roughly equivalent with Fighter still having a healing disadvantage, their DPS should be roughly similar with more MP for the Fighter to offset the lower self healing as the tradeoff... IMO this is exactly as it should be. Another trade off ofc is that fighter is more multiclass friendly and that's fine as well.

[lyrecono]

too long didn't read

With all these changes, can i now build a pure lv 20 melee fighter and contribute in LE tempest spine (besides being a rez scroll dispenser?)

I haven't played a pure lv 20 fighter/10 epic in a while now but;
Can you actually have a stun/trip dc worthy of LE raid content?
Can you have the hp/saves/prr/mrr to withstand the brutal dp mobs dish out on LE raids? (the 4k polar rays, the 4k hits by sorjec, etc)
Is the dps sufficient to warrant a spot in LE raid content, or will raid leaders skip you in favor of the barb/paly/bard/rog mechanic?

[Tilomere]

In terms of supporting weaker builds the crit multiplier and kensai tree does allow for different and solid repeater and bow builds. I see ranger/fighter/monk bow combos being better, as well as fighter/ranger/x repeater combos.

Still won't get back to the glory days of a barb/ranger/fighter critical rage/sniper shot/weapon specialization using a traded holy sword repeater with double shot before the nerfs, but it will pack enough punch for solid leveling.

The crit multiplier has to stay at core 6 for warpriest type builds to have access to heal and retain the "priest" part of the class.

Unarmed/shape shifted should be removed from kensai as a listed option. It has never worked.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

while were on fighters, it would be nice to know if there are any plans to fix or update the feat list as it pertains to fighters, but also in general.