Fighter - Kensei upcoming changes (and SD tweaks)

[Saekee]

I would break up part of the 20 melee power/ranged power out of tier 5 and sprinkle it through the cores, even starting at the first, like 2 rp and melee power per core and make the tier 5 only 10 melee power/ranged power. Or something like that. I have not crunched the numbers fully.
this would further make splashing fighters worthy, even one level--not just a feat but more fight power.

[Marshal_Lannes]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes. Please consider moving the crit effect to L12 or L18. Or better yet, as yourself this - why would I go L20 fighter when I can take L6 Fighter and multi-class?

[Anaximandroz]

I have 2 live of fighter (one fighter 20), but i have a question: does 4 of the 6 cores of defender tree need a shield equipped?
Asking because em both lives i felt compelled to be S&B or be losing a good part of the defender power.
If the answer is no; good. If is yes; Please, for the sake of build diversity, change it.
The sacred defender is so much better (not only because gives defenses and utility -healing and rises -), but because doesn't matter the kind of pally you can use it full. the stalwart forces you on S&B and, virtually, only give more defenses (the CC from core 3 will need heavy investment in vanguard, making this tree a secondary at best).
I was thinking something like:

Overbalance:
Main hand weapon: on vorpal knock (save - like stunning shield). Its on you main weapon only, so 2wf wont be op. Goes off more often, then need a save. Or just make this an special attack with cooldown; giving the tree a reliable cc and bringing it close to the sacred defender.

Stand Fast:
Remove the shield requirement, increase the saves bonus you are giving or the time and add "Passive: +10 or 20 hamp". At this time i think the only front line class without some kind of hamp is the fighter, and is high in the tree, so no easy splash.

Defensive sweep:
Remove shield requirement, add "Passive: +20 hamp", keep the threat bonus and make similar to dance of death, but only 3w and 2 targets per swing.

Last stand
Remove shield, add hamp, and i would think in a little more stacking saves (become under effect of GH maybe), because this feels like a panic button.

[Hobgoblin]

J
- We really, really need a sexy capstone here. Pretty lackluster at this point.

just to say-

Alacrity:
+2 to all ability scores
+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

seems nice to me!

to compare - fb gets you +4 con and a small chance to deal massive damage
oc - 4 con sr hp and more healing amp
rav - 4 hp and pk rage type ability


kotc - 7d6 good aligned, mp, and +4 cha
sad- +2 con+2 cha +10 prrmrr
van- mostly ds and 1w on shields

ranger
not going there - as the power creep is strong with that one

so it seems in line with them right now

[Lonnbeimnech]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes. Please consider moving the crit effect to L12 or L18. Or better yet, as yourself this - why would I go L20 fighter when I can take L6 Fighter and multi-class?

Should be

Power Surge: You gain +8 Psionic bonus to all attributes for 60 seconds and a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you gain On Hit: +2 Ki

[Xaxx]

The fighter update really needs to put kensai back a bit where it was... make it more what its supposed to be a single weapon eastern (monk) centric blend tree like it kind of was. That or get rid of it.

Quite simply fighter needs a new prestige tree and it should be Weaponmaster.

A general weapon select kind like exists in kensai with decent boosts, or a weapon select that goes to one specific weapon with bigger boosts for the pigeonholing your doing to yourself. It would be achoice between different versions from different versions of dnd of the weaponmaster concept. That's my two cents on this whole dang thing.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Where does the idea that this stacks with it self come from?

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

See bold part.

I read this as +10 melee power and if it procs (10% chance) you gain another +10 melee power.

Entirely possible I am reading this wrong.

I guess looking at it some more, it could be considered as an "action boost" type active attack with only 2 boosts that are recharged via the 10% proc chance per attack?

Also, what is the cool down on this attack?

[maddong]

So 14 paladin no trees or 12 ranger with 2 core 12 trees or 6 fighter with 1 tree???

That doesn't seem right.

Put the +1 crit mult at core 12.

Move the 20 mp/rp to 5 at core 6, 15 at core 18.

[ComicRelief]

This is just plain wrong. As someone with 15 fighter past lives you already have the ability to customize your fighter to thf or twf with all the feats you get. I have played many twf fighter lives and they are far from underwelming.

I never stated they were "underwhelming". Extending your feat argument, you already have the ability to customize your fighter to a "specific weapon" wielder with all the feats you get, implying Kensai isn't 'needed'. I am not saying "get rid of kensai." Far from it. I'm simply asserting there are many build options out there NOT covered by the EN lines that could use a little love - the two most common (probably) being TWF and THF.

[ComicRelief]

*snip*

I wanted kensai to be retooled from the ground up, however we have to remind ourselves that we should not have it break existing playstyles. The buffs in kensai are less strict than before, so this will open up a twf or thf to get as equal as an advantage as other builds. And that is kind of the point of fighters anyways. The bard of melee.

*snip*

Heh - I tend to think of fighters as the backbone on melee...or at least, they should be.

[Lauf]

Greetings,

We are currently looking at tweaks to Stalwart Defender and some solid Kensai changes.

Sev~

Overall I like the changes in terms of balance, but they strike me as very very similar to what other classes have, without really having anything unique.

I would have liked to see something in the enhancements that would say 'weapon master', like ignoring a noticeable chunk of enemy fortification, instantly retaliating against melee attacks, deflecting arrows... come to think of it, the swashbucker tree is a lot more in line of what I would expect a weapon master to have, at least as far as flavor. maybe have a look at it and borrow a few ideas.

I also think reed in the wind requires a lower cooldown, even if it means reduced dodge values or duration. a 30sec cooldown is a bit much to use in normal rotations, and a 9% dodge on successful attack isn't really an 'oh ****' button.

maybe have an enhancement that reduces cooldowns for tactical feats? or gives a chance to reset them on a crit or something...

at the moment it seems all your focus went into bringing the kensai damage/ survivability up, and little thought was put into making it feel like a kensai.

[Grailhawk]

New: Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

See bold part.

I read this as +10 melee power and if it procs (10% chance) you gain another +10 melee power.

Entirely possible I am reading this wrong.

I guess looking at it some more, it could be considered as an "action boost" type active attack with only 2 boosts that are recharged via the 10% proc chance per attack?

Also, what is the cool down on this attack?

So the first bolded implies you can use this twice and the part you bolded describes how to recharge.

I think your second read where you think of it kind of like an "action boost" (smite is a better example IMO) is more accurate.

[Axeyu]

+1 Crit multiplier at L6 is far too powerful. When you combine this with the SD stance at L6 you are going to see a bunch of L6 Fighter splashes.

That's exactly why +1 crit multiplier at L6 is a very good thing. Multiclassing needs reinvigoration.
If you think pure fighters till won't be competetive then that should be fixed by buffing level 12-20, not by removing one of the few great multiclassing tools we have seen for a long time.

[Ralmeth]

Cool to see the updates! As Kensai is being changed to a generic DPS tree, I would recommend to change the name to something more generic, such as Weapon Master, as the tree really isn't focused on being a Fighter/Monk combo. Just a thought.

[Cetus]

We are looking to improve the Fighter to make it more competitive with other classes. We have already begun the process by allowing Fighters to take feats to add lots of Tactical bonuses and extra passive mitigation. We want to further boost the class with enhancement trees changes.

Hey Sev,

So, in order to make them more competitive with other classes we need to look at 1) Raw DPS numbers 2) To-hit 3) Survivability 4) Unique class-distinguishing factors that make the class fun to play/feel different (i.e. boosts, tactical moves, crowd control, debuffs, insta-kills, AoE attacks, etc.) and 5) The often mentioned but, I feel erroneously mislabeled, "benefit" of the fighter FEATS

Let's look at the DPS upgrade:

Strike with No Thought: You also gain a +1 competence bonus to critical multiplier.

Alacrity:

• +2 to all ability scores
• +15% Doublestrike
• +15% Doubleshot
• +4 Action Boost uses (even though it is currently bugged to be only 1, it will be 4)
• +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows. This one is present in tier 2, tier 3, and tier 4

Opportunity Attack: 2 Charges, Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] Damage. Your Melee Power is boosted by 10 for 6 seconds. Each time you damage an opponent, but no more than once per second, you have a 10% chance to add a charge up to a maximum of 2.

A Good Death: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds. Extra damage now activates if target is below 30% health. Extra damage scales with Melee Power. Requirements are removed.

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.

Deadly Strike: No longer requires an action boost. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Change the on vorpal ability to cause an extra 500 damage which scales with 400% melee power.

Weapon Master: You gain +3 to hit and damage with all weapons.

For a two-handed fighter, where they would stand now: 1 multiplier, 20 static melee power, +9 damage (extra +2 for each of the three improved weapon spec tiers and +3 from tier 5), +6 activation-dependent melee power, and increased utility of A Good Death/Deadly strike attacks.

Where they should stand: In my view, the qualitative damage of a fighter, raw swing-for-swing DPS, should be LOWER than a barbarians. However, it should not be lower than a paladins - given the massive defensive perks that exist for the paladin class. A quick thought-comparison shows that: holy sword effectively negates the +1 competence bonus to multiplier (strike with no thought) and the +1 competence bonus to threat range (keen edge) that the fighter tree offers, zeal cancels 10% of the 15% doublestrike capstone, divine might offsets the straight damage perks and TACTIC DC's (which comes from weapon spec and new tier 5 ability and miscellaneous tactic bonuses) by a large margin - as my paladin had like a 44-50 charisma - which yielded somewhere between 18-20 extra points of strength, which = 9 or 10 modifiers. Divine sacrifice and smites are fantastic ultra-low cooldown abilities that greatly augment paladin DPS - and these, in my opinion, greatly surpass the left-over fighter DPS perks not mentioned yet (good death/deadly strike, miscellaneous double-strike bonuses from cores, weapon focus/spec feats).

So it seems, that these DPS changes, although a good start, are inadequate in making fighters rival the paladin class (which they should), much less the barbarian (which they shouldn't). I don't have enough experience with other competing DPS builds at the moment, so can't comment there.

Suggestion for raw DPS:

What is the underlying philosophy of the Kensei tree? It's to be a master with one chosen weapon group. A lot of the flavor for playing a Kensei can stem from a theme-based approach (similar to the various elemental savants); where a Kensei that is specced, for example, in using heavy blades obtains various abilities that pertain to the usage of that type of weapon (i.e. a bleeding DOT that scales with melee power, maybe a DC-based instakill decapitation attack, a limb-chopper ability infused into the weapon, an alacrity bonus to attack speed as blades slice faster through the air, an improved trip type effect as a limb-severing feature, whirlwind, maybe a boomerang type ranged ability that "throws your sword" at somebody (of course, I don't know tech limitations)). Perhaps a kensei that is specced for hammer use acquires abilities that give a mass stunning effect, maybe proc an earthquake for 3 seconds with a DC based on str modifier (again, not sure about tech - but brainstorming), maybe give a raw damage bonus here vs. alacrity (hammers are slower to swing). Give DR bypassing capabilities - a master of a weapon should not be subject to the same DR problems as everyone else

This approach would really improve the 4th point I made in my opening remark - add flavor, and a sense of something unique/different to the class, while maintaining lower raw DPS than, say, a barbarian. Of course, attaching a 20 melee power buff is a plus, but it does not add anything unique to the class. Everyone is getting melee power...so what? Every time you do this, you are effectively removing the central reason for different classes to exist in the first place, they all start playing the same and by taking the short and easy way out, you are doing a disservice to the game.

The rest of the DPS enhancements:

1. What happened with power surge? It has remained exactly the same. One would think that the core bonuses would get better as a fighter progresses through the ranks, but the +1 multiplier is present at level 6, while a non-stacking, limited use, +8 psionic bonus to str is given at level 12? This discourages pure fighter progression (why go to 12 when I can go to 6, get my multiplier and then leave the fighter class?).

Frankly, the power surge ability should be renamed to "minor jolt" rather than a POWER SURGE. I suggest either upgrading power surge in any of the following ways, ALL of which include the +8 stacking - not psionic bonus to strength, having this stay as a psionic bonus has been a kick between the legs for years now:

a. a 1% chance to regenerate an action boost per hit while under this effect
b. Swapping it with strike with no thought
c. While under the effects of power surge, your to-hit goes up 1 per level of fighter (this idea is here to help mitigate my 2nd point with regard to to-hit).

2. Attack boost: Just remove this. It's competing with HASTE BOOST. This is no contest, never was, never will be. This ability should occupy some lone corner of the tree, or get removed entirely. I've been saying this for more years than I can count, and it still persists for whatever reason. Let it go.

3. One cut: No changes to this ability? This ability, from what I remember, USED AN ACTION BOOST just to get a vorpal ability for 60 seconds? I loathed taking this ability. It is not fun, adds nothing of practical value, acts as an AP sink, and deters from classing deeper into fighter. PLEASE ADDRESS THIS

4. Spiritual bond: Another useless, poorly worded, and often broken (as far as I remember?) core ability that satisfied a lot of the negative remarks just made with regard to one cut. What's the point of this existing? It's playing a game of +1's here and there - doesn't give the class any flavor, doesn't portray any practical value in this newly formed "bond" between the fighter and his or her weapon. I suggest removing this entirely, and instead giving a useful tactical ability to the Kensei, more to-hit (I'll address this later - as to-hit should be the prime forte of a weapon-specialized fighter, in my view), or best of all, a theme based progression to the weapon types chosen in the first core - to build on my previously introduced idea

I'm very glad that the pre-requisite chain and the AWFUL meditation ability have been removed, as they weighed down the class quite a bit. However, these cores that I singled out are doing exactly the same - they are weighing down the appeal of the class and they simply must be addressed for the class to thrive.

Well ****...this is all that time allowed me to contribute for now. I'll continue this post later on, where I really feel the need to address the survivability and feat situation. The feats are a huge issue for me. Giving the fighter class bonus feats, to then just take away a good portion of them with useless/marginally significant requirements has been a fundamental design flaw for...forever now - this is a good time to change this, hopefully...

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

[Kompera_Oberon]

The +1 crit multiplier in a level 6 core is fantastic. It will hopefully open up a lot of multiclasss options.

Except that it is a Competence bonus, which is almost all other forms of crit multiplier bonus and so will not stack. So, not really.

Without any boost to self healing Fighters will still be backseat to Paladins and Barbarians who have that capability in spades.

[Vulkoorex]

So where's the self healing?

[LordTigerDawn]

You are missing thrown weapons in:


Weapon Group Specialization: You gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one handed weapons and repeating crossbows, and +1 to hit and +4 damage with two handed weapons and non-repeating crossbows.

They are included in the kensei focus but then are completely forgotten (as usual) in the rest of the tiers.

[maddong]

Since most combat classes now do seem to already have a +1 crit mult, the biggest options that +1 crit mult at level 6 open up seem to be:

Bard 3/Fighter 6/X 11
17-20/x5 light picks for 17AP

Fighter 6/Barb 14
+1 crit mult vs FB capstone/death frenzy

Fighter 6/Monk 14
+1 crit mult shortswords (maybe even more interesting once handwraps count as weapons)

[IronClan]

I think Defender needs a T5 small heal over time tick to compensate for Paladin Tanks being so much better at self healing. OR maybe needs to have some DPS in it. or more mitigation? Go one direction or the other, make Fighter much less self healing and more mitigation or DPS. The thing that Ranger and barbarian failed to accomplish (they have no trade offs) so in Fighter strengthen the tradoffs, so you can nerf Ranger (reduce DPS, eliminate AOE TWF entirely) and Barbarian (Reduce self healing a lot).

I think Vanguard needs more DPS benefit to compensate for this same issue. It can be higher DPS than Paladin as the tradoff for Paladin having much better self healing and saves. Perhaps Kensei Keen Edge could apply to Shield unlike Holy Sword? Also the core Crit multiplier in Kensei could also apply to Shields. Sword and Board is woefully behind Ranger DPS and also Ranger mitigation, if Ranger's mitigation or DPS aren't going to be nerfed, then Both Paladin and Fighter S&B needs significant DPS or Mititgation improvements. Right now Ranger is a Master of all trades. No trade offs needed, IMO this should be addressed with Ranger nerfs (and I am a big time nerf hater but I don't see any alternative).

One with the Blade: You also gain, as part of the passive bonus, +20 Melee Power and Ranged Power. Requirements are removed.


Sev~

Change this to 1 melee power per fighter level, and an additional 5 melee power at fighter class level 20, to partially add a trade off for the benefit of Monk and various other Multiclasses here. Otherwise CK with Monk Splash is getting too good. If you structure it like this it's less "low hanging fruit" kinda like how movement speed is put in Rogue and Bard to add some tradeoff for multiclassing.

Otherwise I really like the Kensei changes as they stand, I am glad you didn't go crazy with making Fighter unfriendly for multilcassing by making the 18 core and capstone dumptruck sized bonuses. Because of this I feel my suggestion for making OwtB "per fighter level" of melee power is fair and balanced and not overly punishing of multiclassing, it will help give some trade off to 18 fighter 2 Monk or Rogue, or a 12 Fighter 6 whatever 2 something else, but not so much that people will feel they absolutely have to go 20 fighter.

20 fighter = 25 mp
18/2 = 18mp but gets benefit of 2 splash
12/6/2 = 12mp but gets benefit of 6 whatever 2 splash etc.

Please allow the Core Multiplier to apply to Shields, so Vanguard can recover some of the serious deficit to Paladin vanguard (Paladin is still much better saves and Self healing built in).

Fighters have decent healing opportunities with Cocoon, and Sacred ground heal over time or Bladeforged , heal scrolls etc. please don't cave to the people who want you to make it auto healing like Barbarian.


All of these comments are made ignoring the huge issue with Ranged kiting builds being back to trivializing LE content, and are predicated on Barbarian's self heal being further adjusted and Ranger's mitigation or DPS being adjusted and the TWF AOE eliminated or having some sort of serious trade off added for it's use. If none of that is going to happen then Fighter needs more mitigation and self healing or DPS spiked up to compensate for the deficit of those. Perhaps 2 weapon multipliers instead of 1.