Possibly time to reconsider drawbacks of Combat Expertise

[Enoach]

Defensive Combat Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls but gain +10% feat bonus to Armor Class.

Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active.
Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

(Note: The in-game description incorrectly implies that the to-hit and AC modifiers are limited by your Base Attack Bonus, and the AC bonus type is unspecified.)

Notes

Spell like abilities are not subjected to the increased cooldown
----------------------------------
In particular the three times their normal cooldown, especially since SLA abilities and ED abilities are not effected by this.

This was initially added as a replacement of dropping out of stance when a spell was cast. The idea was to prevent CE from being too good a feat that casters would use it to have a strong AC (not getting into the effectiveness of AC alone in this discussion). With the loss of stance and now with 3x cooldown by far the melee caster be it divine or arcane is effected the most by this.

I want to propose a different penalty instead that helps prevent this from being too good with spell casters but does not pose such a penalty on the Melee character that happens to use spells also. Reduce the cooldown of 3x to 1.5x and reduce the DC of spells by 2 and reduce Spell Penetration by 1; thematically because your concentration is on your defense so it is harder to keep your concentration on the resistance of your spell.

The cooldown still is a trade off for the melee type that uses only healing/buffs but also makes this a trade off for the primary caster that is looking to CE for more defense.

Just a thought is all.

[Tilomere]

There are no drawbacks to CE.

In heroics everything works, and in epics it only increases the cool downs of weak heroic abilities you shouldn't be using anyways, except to trigger ED abilities. CE is a fantastic caster feat.

[Marshal_Lannes]

There are no drawbacks to CE.

In heroics everything works, and in epics it only increases the cool downs of weak heroic abilities you shouldn't be using anyways, except to trigger ED abilities. CE is a fantastic caster feat.

Isn't this the problem with the feat? It is called combat expertise, it is a fighter feat! It should not benefit casters. I would make the cooldown effect SLAs and/or give better benefits to fighters. There is no way combat expertise should be useful to classes that spend their time studying spell books.

[unbongwah]

I don't really care about lore, but if I did, I wouldn't have a problem with saying a caster who takes CE (or Resilience) has studied how to channel their magical energies into improving their defenses and blah blah blah.

In any case, you think Tilo's praising CE, but he's really just dumping on heroic spells (again) for (still) being useless in endgame.

[hp1055cm]

Can't say I've ever used Combat Expertise. Why would a fighter take that over Precision or Power Attack? Always thought of it as a waste of a feat slot.

Also, what good is a 10% bonus to AC to an Epic caster? How do you not find a better caster related feat to take?

[AbyssalMage]

Can't say I've ever used Combat Expertise. Why would a fighter take that over Precision or Power Attack? Always thought of it as a waste of a feat slot.

Before they divorced AC from PnP, it was a popular feat. After the divorce though, it slowly lost favor to the point now that you are correct, "Why would a fighter take that over..." The enhancement and Armor Up revamp have just solidified its role of never being taken, for me personally.

[Memnir]

I took CE on a Intelligence Fighter I'm trying out, first time I've leveraged that part of the Harper tree. CE seemed to fit thematically.
If it were not for the fact that I love Imp. Trip (which is unreasonable, I know - but I do) I'd have taken a trip to Fred already.


I wouldn't call CE totally useless. Just nearly so. Even without considering the cool-down penalty of it, the feat needs some more meat to it. Considering the cool-down... I'd be okay with it being lessened or removed.

[Enoach]

There are no drawbacks to CE.

In heroics everything works, and in epics it only increases the cool downs of weak heroic abilities you shouldn't be using anyways, except to trigger ED abilities. CE is a fantastic caster feat.

Hoping this is Tongue-N-Cheek .

Isn't this the problem with the feat? It is called combat expertise, it is a fighter feat! It should not benefit casters. I would make the cooldown effect SLAs and/or give better benefits to fighters. There is no way combat expertise should be useful to classes that spend their time studying spell books.

Can't say I've ever used Combat Expertise. Why would a fighter take that over Precision or Power Attack? Always thought of it as a waste of a feat slot.

Also, what good is a 10% bonus to AC to an Epic caster? How do you not find a better caster related feat to take?

Before they divorced AC from PnP, it was a popular feat. After the divorce though, it slowly lost favor to the point now that you are correct, "Why would a fighter take that over..." The enhancement and Armor Up revamp have just solidified its role of never being taken, for me personally.

I took CE on a Intelligence Fighter I'm trying out, first time I've leveraged that part of the Harper tree. CE seemed to fit thematically.
If it were not for the fact that I love Imp. Trip (which is unreasonable, I know - but I do) I'd have taken a trip to Fred already.


I wouldn't call CE totally useless. Just nearly so. Even without considering the cool-down penalty of it, the feat needs some more meat to it. Considering the cool-down... I'd be okay with it being lessened or removed.

Here is the thing the Fighter class does not have a Drawback on using this feat because outside of EDs they generally don't have the ability to cast spells that are effected by this cooldown. The ones that are hurt by this are those such as Paladin (tank style build) or even Cleric (tank style build). And yes I know forum says tanks are useless and if it is simply a hard to hit HP bag I would agree but there is a lot more to being a tank then being able to take a hit.

I just really think the 3x cooldown hurts the wrong builds but at the same time don't want CE to be to good an option for a pure caster to gain 10% AC since they are casting spells and a -5 to hit means nothing to them.

[Tilomere]

I just really think the 3x cooldown hurts the wrong builds but at the same time don't want CE to be to good an option for a pure caster to gain 10% AC since they are casting spells and a -5 to hit means nothing to them.

-5 to hit doesn't mean anything to anyone. My current melee build is at +134 to hit right now.

[Enoach]

-5 to hit doesn't mean anything to anyone. My current melee build is at +134 to hit right now.

At epic levels I agree, however, at heroic it can especially when not well equipped or your current BaB is not 1 to 1 because of class splits.

[Tilomere]

In any case, you think Tilo's praising CE, but he's really just dumping on heroic spells (again) for (still) being useless in endgame.

I really like AC though, and CE. My most recent caster druid build even has it.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Isn't this the problem with the feat? It is called combat expertise, it is a fighter feat! It should not benefit casters. I would make the cooldown effect SLAs and/or give better benefits to fighters. There is no way combat expertise should be useful to classes that spend their time studying spell books.

Stop trying to apply logic to a game which has dragons and spells and elves. Combat Expertise is a name, that is all. It is a Feat available to be taken by anyone with an INT of 13+ (you know, like a Wizard), and using the name as an argument to try to restrict the usability is ... well it just isn't an informed position.

Can't say I've ever used Combat Expertise. Why would a fighter take that over Precision or Power Attack? Always thought of it as a waste of a feat slot.

In these days of LE content with one hit kills, having a high AC is not a bad thing.

[Qhualor]

Here is the thing the Fighter class does not have a Drawback on using this feat because outside of EDs they generally don't have the ability to cast spells that are effected by this cooldown. The ones that are hurt by this are those such as Paladin (tank style build) or even Cleric (tank style build). And yes I know forum says tanks are useless and if it is simply a hard to hit HP bag I would agree but there is a lot more to being a tank then being able to take a hit.

I just really think the 3x cooldown hurts the wrong builds but at the same time don't want CE to be to good an option for a pure caster to gain 10% AC since they are casting spells and a -5 to hit means nothing to them.

this is true that fighters don't have the ability to cast spells, but they are one of the best classes to multi class that also can cast spells. ive been in groups with cleric/fighter tank builds that were pretty good, but I doubt they had CE. I wouldn't believe the forums that tanks are useless. ive grouped with a few in Legendary hard/elite TS, Hound and high level content and watched them take far less damage than the rest of the group and hold agro.

its funny you bring this up because I was looking over this feat last week and comparing it to PnP thinking of how to improve it. I would be interested in seeing more discussion on this and anything else feat related.

[AbyssalMage]

Hoping this is Tongue-N-Cheek .
Here is the thing the Fighter class does not have a Drawback on using this feat because outside of EDs they generally don't have the ability to cast spells that are effected by this cooldown. The ones that are hurt by this are those such as Paladin (tank style build) or even Cleric (tank style build). And yes I know forum says tanks are useless and if it is simply a hard to hit HP bag I would agree but there is a lot more to being a tank then being able to take a hit.

I just really think the 3x cooldown hurts the wrong builds but at the same time don't want CE to be to good an option for a pure caster to gain 10% AC since they are casting spells and a -5 to hit means nothing to them.

I think the point you may have lost is that it doesn't hurt caster builds either, unless you are lazy and dislike turning things off and clicking "tons" of buttons, like me. Look at my sig (as of 4/9/16) in ways that make CE penalty useless programming. Is it tedious, yes, but players have been working around it for awhile (6+ years) now. I support the thread in the sense that I hate turning things on/off so that I can use them most effectively.

[HastyPudding]

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone playing a caster and considering CE. Casters have enough feats to worry about without extras that provide a minuscule boost for the cost of a feat; casters would be better off with the usual metamagics, spell foci,epic spells, etc. Even enlarge or eschew materials is a better feat slot than CE.

I wish they would do something useful with Combat Casting. Then, I might consider using a feat on something other than the necessities.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Stop trying to apply logic to a game which has dragons and spells and elves. Combat Expertise is a name, that is all. It is a Feat available to be taken by anyone with an INT of 13+ (you know, like a Wizard), and using the name as an argument to try to restrict the usability is ... well it just isn't an informed position.


In these days of LE content with one hit kills, having a high AC is not a bad thing.

Logic must work even in fantasy worlds. You must have a set of rules or the audience loses interest. CE is clearly a martial feat meant to represent the introduction to tactical fighting (hence it being a prereq for something like whirlwind attack). Fantasy examples of what I would call CE would be Syrio former first sword of Bravos from Game of Thrones and Water Dancing style or Zaknafein Do'Urden and his combination of defense and offense. It would require hours and hours of study and practice, something spell casters would not have the time or aptitude to do. One way I would restrict it without changing the feat would be to require martial weapons training as a prereq to CE. This is of course a discussion in theory as I don't see there is any way the Devs around going to go back and redo old feats with what they have on their plate.

[Aelonwy]

Defensive Combat Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls but gain +10% feat bonus to Armor Class.

Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active.
Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

(Note: The in-game description incorrectly implies that the to-hit and AC modifiers are limited by your Base Attack Bonus, and the AC bonus type is unspecified.)

Notes

Spell like abilities are not subjected to the increased cooldown
----------------------------------
In particular the three times their normal cooldown, especially since SLA abilities and ED abilities are not effected by this.

This was initially added as a replacement of dropping out of stance when a spell was cast. The idea was to prevent CE from being too good a feat that casters would use it to have a strong AC (not getting into the effectiveness of AC alone in this discussion). With the loss of stance and now with 3x cooldown by far the melee caster be it divine or arcane is effected the most by this.

I want to propose a different penalty instead that helps prevent this from being too good with spell casters but does not pose such a penalty on the Melee character that happens to use spells also. Reduce the cooldown of 3x to 1.5x and reduce the DC of spells by 2 and reduce Spell Penetration by 1; thematically because your concentration is on your defense so it is harder to keep your concentration on the resistance of your spell.

The cooldown still is a trade off for the melee type that uses only healing/buffs but also makes this a trade off for the primary caster that is looking to CE for more defense.

Just a thought is all.

I like your suggestions. I think the feat should also come with a small bonus to PRR, thematically its a defensive feat and a +5 bonus to PRR might just bump it into the realm of possibly useful and thus appeal to more people.

[Chai]

There was a point ~2011 or so where we should have been afraid that caster AC tank builds would be OP.

That era is long gone. Even if there was no penalty whatsoever for combat expertise, tanky caster types wont be OP any time soon.

Someone could make a case for a warlock, but having to feat the AC and PRR all out takes away from slots they could be using for offense.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Logic must work even in fantasy worlds. You must have a set of rules or the audience loses interest. CE is clearly a martial feat meant to represent the introduction to tactical fighting (hence it being a prereq for something like whirlwind attack).

I was trying to nicely point out that it is your logic which is flawed. Logic in general is just fine.

Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active. Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

Please try to tell me using your special brand of logic why a feat intended only for non-casters would bother to specifically call out two impacts to casters: three times spell cooldown is irrelevant to a non-caster, and being warded against rage effects is a good thing for a caster.

You use phrases like "CE is clearly a martial feat meant to [blah blah]" as if they have any meaning considering the subject. Stop doing that. Heavy Armor is clearly a martial feat, as it can only be taken by a fighter. CE is quite different.

[Saekee]

Some players struggle with getting decent PRR and improved combat expertise from LD has been one source. It is especially useful on whirlwind attack monk builds that need CE anyway for the feat requirements.

I think PA, Precision, CE & Resilience should all be overhauled together, Precision being the one needing the least work, if not none at all.