Wild Shape + Weapon Finesse?

[lpguy26]

Ok.. I've been looking at the DDOWiki and there are a couple discrepancies.. or I'm plain misunderstanding/misreading which is entirely possible. I want to know if Weapon Finesse works as it does in pen and paper and applies to a Druid's natural attacks when in Winter Wolf form.

The Wild Shape entry states this:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Wild_Shape
• The ability that determines your attack and damage bonus is strength. Abilities that change the ability that applies to damage such as Flame Blade or Weapon Finesse do not change the damage and attack of your natural attack.

However, the Weapon Finesse entry states this:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Finesse
The following weapon types benefit from Weapon Finesse: Dagger, Handaxe, Kama, Kukri, Light hammer, Light mace, Light pick, Rapier, Shortsword, Sickle, Unarmed or in a Druid animal form.

Which is correct? Does Weapon Finesse apply to attacks as the feat entry states or does it not, as the Wild Shape entry states?...
Sorry for the confusion and thanks ahead of time for the replies!

[unbongwah]

The good news: Weapon Finesse does apply its DEX to-hit to animal forms. The bad news: none of the DEX-to-dmg effects will carry over to animal forms; dmg is always based on STR.

[lpguy26]

The good news: Weapon Finesse does apply its DEX to-hit to animal forms. The bad news: none of the DEX-to-dmg effects will carry over to animal forms; dmg is always based on STR.

Thanks for the reply Unbongwah... glad to hear dex to attk works, but even with the dex to dmg enhancements from rogue it will not transfer? Is this WAI or has this been mentioned as slated to be changed in a future update? If not, that is most unfortunate... :/

[unbongwah]

glad to hear dex to attk works, but even with the dex to dmg enhancements from rogue it will not transfer?

Correct: neither will Improved Weapon Finesse (DWS), Ninja Training, nor any weapon effects which natively do DEX-to-dmg (e.g., Flint).

Is this WAI or has this been mentioned as slated to be changed in a future update?

...Maybe? Wolf builds have been such a broken mess for so long, I have no idea what is and isn't supposed to be WAI, other than the TWF bugs were confirmed a long time ago. It's been 2 1/2 years without any fixes, though, so who knows how long it will be?

FYI, this thread is the most comprehensive effort to figure out what does & doesn't work with wolf form: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...orking-with-it

[RD2play]

side track, ... Does this also mean the PDK training does not work with Animal form? or TYWA ??

[unbongwah]

Correct: AFAIK, none of the alternate-stat-to-dmg effects apply to animal forms (or unarmed atks).

As to whether they're supposed to: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues

The Deepwood Stalker enhancement "Improved Weapon Finesse" is not applying to Unarmed attacks or Handwraps.

To me that implies Imp Weap Finesse is supposed to work with unarmed combat but doesn't; so if / when Turbine gets around to a monk / handwrap overhaul, they'll fix this issue. But the Magic 8-Ball is very vague on when that might happen...

[lpguy26]

side track, ... Does this also mean the PDK training does not work with Animal form? or TYWA ??

I would assume yes... that PDK training wouldnt work as well... and yeah I know about the TWF not WAI on the wild shapes, and know a few people who are exploiting this, but I'd rather not make a build based on a bug or exploit, only to have it fixed afterwards lol.

Edit: Also Unbongwah, my friend here at work states (don't quote me!) that the unarmed damage/handwraps issue is in the works to be fixed per producer Vargouille November 30th newsletter... dont have the time to confirm this tho..

[unbongwah]

Devs have acknowledged that handwraps are buggy and fixing them is on their to-do list. If I had to guess, I would presume they'll fix them when they get around to a monk overhaul, hopefully later this year.

I suspect at least some of the druid / wolf bugs have to do with how they coded unarmed atks (and in particular how they "broke" them after U19), so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out eventually.

Anyway, OP, if you want a wolf build which avoids the known TWF bugs, build around GSWF atk speed + doublestrike bonuses instead. Although ironically, Dance of Death is still really useful even if you're avoiding the TWF chain; partly because it's such a great AoE, ofc, but also because some of the other T5 abilities don't work with wolf builds. E.g., I think Keen Edge and Crit Rage are both broken on wolf builds.

[RD2play]

I would assume yes... that PDK training wouldnt work as well... and yeah I know about the TWF not WAI on the wild shapes, and know a few people who are exploiting this, but I'd rather not make a build based on a bug or exploit, only to have it fixed afterwards lol.

Edit: Also Unbongwah, my friend here at work states (don't quote me!) that the unarmed damage/handwraps issue is in the works to be fixed per producer Vargouille November 30th newsletter... dont have the time to confirm this tho..

We are all pushing for the handwrap fix to be done this year at least, but there is no certainty it will. I for one do hope they get to it this year (including natural fighting bugs). As well as getting the 3th trees for classes that still don't have them. However Atm the lag needs to be resolved first so I feel it is going to be pushed back further,.. if they where working on it even. which no one knows really (well maybe sev does)

*(this is al conjecture on my part)

[lpguy26]

Again, Thanks for all the replies.. The build I'm going for is using the Deep Gnome Iconic class... (one of my guildies in HeManWomanhaters Club on Cannith has started an all Halfling/Gnome group and this toon is to join them)

I was looking at doing 9 Druid/6 Wizard/5 Rogue and following mainly the Natures Warrior and Eldritch Knight Enhancement trees. With the knowledge that Dex to DMG wont work though I may stay away from doing more than 2 levels of rogue (just far enough to get Evasion and max out UMD/Bluff) and use the remaining levels for more Druid and just do a 12/6/2 split... Suggestions? Again all future replies are greatly appreciated!

[unbongwah]

I for one do hope they get to it this year (including natural fighting bugs).

AFAIK, there are no bugs with NF; it's just a pretty weaksauce feat line, so hopefully it gets buffed whenever Turbine gets around to fixing / buffing druids.

I was looking at doing 9 Druid/6 Wizard/5 Rogue and following mainly the Natures Warrior and Eldritch Knight Enhancement trees. With the knowledge that Dex to DMG wont work though I may stay away from doing more than 2 levels of rogue (just far enough to get Evasion and max out UMD/Bluff) and use the remaining levels for more Druid and just do a 12/6/2 split... Suggestions?

TBH, I think NW & EK are both weak DPS trees; and I'm skeptical that combining them is the best way to go.

One of the big issues with wolf builds in epics has always been they don't benefit from most +[W] modifiers, in particular the ones on weapons. This was bad enough when druids first came out and +2.5[W] was the best you could get; now that +5[W] weapons are the norm in endgame, it really puts wolf builds at a serious disadvantage. This got worse after the U28 balance pass, which reduced wolf form crit range from 17-20/x3 to 18-20/x3 w/IC:Blunt. AFAIK, none of the crit range bonuses like Keen Edge or Crit Rage apply to wolf form, hence my earlier post.

So wolf builds look for ways to compensate for those shortcomings:

• Maxing out your atk speed thru SWF feats + Haste / Wind stance / Fatal Harrier.
• Maxing out your hit rate thru TWF bugs and/or doublestrike bonues (Shield Mastery, Natural Fighting, etc.).
• Maxing out your on-hit dmg effects and/or investing in sneak atks. [One of the more radical examples: rog 12+ / druid 2+ using just base wolf form, relying on lots of sneak atks to make up for the lower base / crit dmg.]

Basically, as a wolf build, you're trying to make lots of little hits which add up to big DPS (in theory).

Ironically, if you don't want T5 Tempest (due to all the filler you have to take), your second-best option might be...T5 Deepwood Stalker: +30% Doublestrike from Killer + Strikes Like Lightning, +5 Melee Power, extra sneak atks (at least +3d6), up to +8 dmg from Thrill of the Hunt + Favored Hunter + Extra FE, Exposing Strike (good w/Adrenaline or lots of sneak atks); Survivalist is a nice perk if you use lt armor (Evasion) for extra HPs & PRR.

[lpguy26]

Well, this was mostly based off the Fenris build from 2013.. so yeah I was going to go 1h club - offhand Lg shield ..
IC Blunt
Shield Mastery
Imp. Shield Mastery
3x Nat. Fighting

and try to push Doublestrike as far as possible.. One thing I know is this isnt going to be a "max damage" optimized build.. I'm trying to have a little survivability in there as well but unsure of whether or not survivability at the cost of damage on this build is worth it. Also, yes.. was trying to max out bluff/sneak attack as much as possible with the NW tree and levels of rogue to boost DPS as well.

Thanks for your continued help/suggestions!