Hey Sev & Devs, It's time for Throwing expertise, nothing else will do it.

[Zebedar]

Sev and Team,

Since last year the team had made various noises and posts about how you wanted to encourage 'other thrower' builds. And how you wanted them to be viable beyond shuriken. To that end the people on the loot design side of things have delivered with several different throwing weapons. A tentative set of steps were started with the mechanic, and some with DWS. But the problem remains that unless it is a shuriken there is no plausible way for a throwing weapon to do anything except gimp the build. As it stands now shuriken are the only throwing weapon that allow players to buy 'expertise'. That of course gives the player a percentage chance to double shot based on the dexterity, which due to the attack speed of throwing weapons is essential.


I have discussed this with Devs on lamma, in PMs, and in person, all of them, including Severlin have indicated that they would like to see throwers be able to diversify and add to the game. All of them admitted that shuriken are currently the only logical choice for thrower because of access to 'shuriken expertise'. Much more importantly, several of the hands on devs that I have been lucky enough to speak with have indicated that there is no inherent restrictions within the DDO legacy code that would prohibit 'expertise' being extended to other throwing weapon.

Now, in this brief lull after the anniversary and in light of the tremendous success of the new feats is the time for the Developers to take this opportunity to finally make a feat for 'throwing expertise' allowing characters to purchase a specific expertise feat for specific weapons. Granted it would have been handy to have it available for Gnomes to buy 'throwing hammer expertise' for the Gnome roll-out but it's still recent enough to be a great addition. Additionally Monk players would still retain the established edge with shuriken and 'advanced ninja trainings', but not to the level of exclusion of all other throwing builds.

There is a tremendous hunger among players to try their hands at viable thrower builds outside of monk throwing shuriken, a relatively small change and feat introduction could make the Devs and players shared interest in more thrower builds possible. Now is the time, so please Devs lets make this happen.

[Mithis]

I totally support the opinion expressed here.

When I was planning the TR on my thrower I really wanted to do something other than shuriken but in the end I just couldnt justify it.

[goldengibblet]

Sev and Team,

^So much this!

I look at all the work put into new named items like 'Return to sender' and as the system stands now all that work is wasted. No body can afford to try and use it.

[Coyopa]

^So much this!

I look at all the work put into new named items like 'Return to sender' and as the system stands now all that work is wasted. No body can afford to try and use it.

Return to Sender is a wasted weapon anyway since it makes no attack rolls when Improved Precise Shot is turned on. (Neither the epic nor heroic versions make attack rolls with IPS turned on.) The same is true of many/most/all throwing axes.

I know this about Return to Sender because I got one on my thrower (mainly to glamer, if we're being honest), but I thought I would try it out because it could have been a fun weapon from time to time. Testing both in quests and on the training dummy showed there are no attack rolls made with IPS turned on, but there are attack rolls as long as IPS is off (meaning that you do not need to turn Archer's Focus on).

EDIT: Oh, and just in case I need to be this explicit ... no attack rolls means no damage rolls are ever made, either.

[Avocado]

If they add thrower feats for all types of throwing weapons shurikens will still be the preferred weapon because they get that benefit of +1 thrown from monk trees.They would need to add to more than just expertise feats for this to increase build diversity. Perhaps +1 in a fighter tree as part of Kensei focus. +1 in the Gnome trees (as you stated). +1 while swashbuckling. I don't think this is something that will happen as an update but will be implemented as small changes through updates (as the new trend of update suggests).

A tremendous hunger? I dont think so. I would say the people who play throwers would like to see that, however, the rest of us who dont play throwers or care to dont care to see more of this play style implemented.

/Not signed

Why?
I want to see them fix casting, which is a core element to the game, before they fix flavor builds for the sake of a few players.

[goldengibblet]

If they add thrower feats for all types of throwing weapons shurikens will still be the preferred weapon because they get that benefit of +1 thrown from monk trees.They would need to add to more than just expertise feats for this to increase build diversity. Perhaps +1 in a fighter tree as part of Kensei focus. +1 in the Gnome trees (as you stated). +1 while swashbuckling. I don't think this is something that will happen as an update but will be implemented as small changes through updates (as the new trend of update suggests).

A tremendous hunger? I dont think so. I would say the people who play throwers would like to see that, however, the rest of us who dont play throwers or care to dont care to see more of this play style implemented.

/Not signed

Why?
I want to see them fix casting, which is a core element to the game, before they fix flavor builds for the sake of a few players.

See this is just the type of thing that makes the forum community so dysfunctional. First you try to casually discredit the idea and undercut it by spouting some more ideas that have nothing to do with the suggested idea of expertise. Then you bring up +1s here and there to make it more confusing. Then you talk down about people wanting it, ignoring the fact that the lack of expertise cause the majority of the 'dont care', then throw in an insulting little 'not signed' just to be rude.... all very confusing... until:

You finally admit that you really don't want it to happen because it might interfere with a caster pass, and all the previous **** was just to screw up a thread because you are afraid that something for other players may stop you from getting what you want.

Really really obnoxious behavior. Oh, and BTW the parting 'flavor and few' comment? totally divorced from reality and just petty snark on your behalf.

All that? perfect example of the kind of garbage that makes it so hard to even discuss things on the forums, you should learn to behave like an adult or stop posting.

[goldengibblet]

Return to Sender is a wasted weapon anyway since it makes no attack rolls when Improved Precise Shot is turned on. (Neither the epic nor heroic versions make attack rolls with IPS turned on.) The same is true of many/most/all throwing axes.

I know this about Return to Sender because I got one on my thrower (mainly to glamer, if we're being honest), but I thought I would try it out because it could have been a fun weapon from time to time. Testing both in quests and on the training dummy showed there are no attack rolls made with IPS turned on, but there are attack rolls as long as IPS is off (meaning that you do not need to turn Archer's Focus on).

EDIT: Oh, and just in case I need to be this explicit ... no attack rolls means no damage rolls are ever made, either.

Definitely a bug that needs to be fixed! it's on the know issues list. How great would it be to be able to use it well after it's debugged and with a 'throwing dagger expertise' feat?

[Grace_ana]

Return to Sender is a wasted weapon anyway since it makes no attack rolls when Improved Precise Shot is turned on. (Neither the epic nor heroic versions make attack rolls with IPS turned on.) The same is true of many/most/all throwing axes.

I know this about Return to Sender because I got one on my thrower (mainly to glamer, if we're being honest), but I thought I would try it out because it could have been a fun weapon from time to time. Testing both in quests and on the training dummy showed there are no attack rolls made with IPS turned on, but there are attack rolls as long as IPS is off (meaning that you do not need to turn Archer's Focus on).

EDIT: Oh, and just in case I need to be this explicit ... no attack rolls means no damage rolls are ever made, either.

This explains a lot. I had to turn off IPS on my experimental thrower life because the return to sender was just passing through things. Though if I recall, I had the problem with a few other throwing weapons too. I wonder if having it happen with the RtS bugged out other weapons as well?

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I ran an iconic non-shuriken thrower life recently to actually compare. It was bad. Really bad. I would say that the damage I was doing with epic level weapons at late epic levels was about equivalent to the damage I did on my bow ranger at level 13 or so. That's just ridiculous.

I agree that an expertise feat would help. The other option, if they wanted to differentiate, would be to give us a feat that allowed each throw to do significantly more damage. Kind of like the difference between great crossbows and repeaters. This is the route I'd actually like to see. Maybe a feat for throwing daggers and darts with a big increase in threat range and multiplier, and a feat for throwing hammers and axes that multiplies the base damage? That way there is a bit of a differential between the three types and gives more flavor and options.

I was really disappointed in the mechanic tree in that it seemed to be trying to throw a bone to non-shuriken throwers, but it fell way short. Bonuses that went only to certain weapons weren't given to throwers, which made no real sense since throwers are so far behind. I assume they didn't want to overly buff shuriken, but something has to give.

[Zebedar]

This explains a lot. I had to turn off IPS on my experimental thrower life because the return to sender was just passing through things. Though if I recall, I had the problem with a few other throwing weapons too. I wonder if having it happen with the RtS bugged out other weapons as well?

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I ran an iconic non-shuriken thrower life recently to actually compare. It was bad. Really bad. I would say that the damage I was doing with epic level weapons at late epic levels was about equivalent to the damage I did on my bow ranger at level 13 or so. That's just ridiculous.

I agree that an expertise feat would help. The other option, if they wanted to differentiate, would be to give us a feat that allowed each throw to do significantly more damage. Kind of like the difference between great crossbows and repeaters. This is the route I'd actually like to see. Maybe a feat for throwing daggers and darts with a big increase in threat range and multiplier, and a feat for throwing hammers and axes that multiplies the base damage? That way there is a bit of a differential between the three types and gives more flavor and options.

I was really disappointed in the mechanic tree in that it seemed to be trying to throw a bone to non-shuriken throwers, but it fell way short. Bonuses that went only to certain weapons weren't given to throwers, which made no real sense since throwers are so far behind. I assume they didn't want to overly buff shuriken, but something has to give.

Great post! Preseently I am focusing and hope that we can all lobby for a feat that has the various 'expertise' routes instead of those other suggestions because I was told by two different Devs, that it was the simplest method to address the imbalance because the code and precedents to do so were already there for the Shuriken.

I'm a as big of a fan of all the other throwing and other weapons feats that people suggest on the forums, but I'm also a realist. So I am trying gather support and get developer focus on 'throwing expertise' as it is the simplest and therefore most reasonably attainable change we can hope for from the Team at this time of limited resources.

Simply put, the one change could provide not only a huge quality of life boost for players but also birth a large expansion of builds and playstyles that are ready to go if just given the chance.

Let's all let Severlin and his Team know that we think this is a good idea and something we would support and like to see!

[goldengibblet]

Good point, focus on the achievable, the implementation of a already established game feature like 'expertise' to help instead calling for wholesale changes and new features and feats. That makes good sense!


FYI I cannot not think of any case in the last few years when Turbine has used any suggestions that were made entirely of whole cloth, I.E. brand new ideas, feats, spells, etc... the only changes I've seen them use from player input are the application of things already in play or elaborations on ideas that the Developer initiated. So wise plan Zebedar.

[Gauthaag]

I have couple logical objections:

1) improved precise shot - its clearly nonsense that thrown projectile can go thru several enemies and inflict still same dmg. I would suggest exclude thrown weapons from IPS
2) expertise feats as suggested and shuriken expertise shouldn't work with returning weapons - u cant simply throw multiple projectiles if u re holding just one. No problems with stacks of ammunition

and third - its just obvious try to gain more power. shuriken has its expertise feat but no futher support. daggers are heavily supported in assassin tree, axes by dwarf tywa enhancements and LD destiny.

[Grace_ana]

I don't think it's less achievable to have a few feats for different items. At the very least, it's not unreasonable to propose it. They've coded new feats repeatedly, even recently. I don't really want to see no difference between every single kind of throwing weapon.

I have couple logical objections:

1) improved precise shot - its clearly nonsense that thrown projectile can go thru several enemies and inflict still same dmg. I would suggest exclude thrown weapons from IPS
2) expertise feats as suggested and shuriken expertise shouldn't work with returning weapons - u cant simply throw multiple projectiles if u re holding just one. No problems with stacks of ammunition

and third - its just obvious try to gain more power. shuriken has its expertise feat but no futher support. daggers are heavily supported in assassin tree, axes by dwarf tywa enhancements and LD destiny.

These aren't remotely logical.

The first two complaints would kill thrower builds completely, end of story, RIP. The third is laughable. Power grabs...for thrower builds? Because they are so OP? Let me tell you, even with the things you cite, a non-shuriken thrower build is at best a third of the damage of any other comparable build. I know, I've tested. It's crazy how gimp they are.

[Gauthaag]

I don't think it's less achievable to have a few feats for different items. At the very least, it's not unreasonable to propose it. They've coded new feats repeatedly, even recently. I don't really want to see no difference between every single kind of throwing weapon.




These aren't remotely logical.

The first two complaints would kill thrower builds completely, end of story, RIP. The third is laughable. Power grabs...for thrower builds? Because they are so OP? Let me tell you, even with the things you cite, a non-shuriken thrower build is at best a third of the damage of any other comparable build. I know, I've tested. It's crazy how gimp they are.

and? have u seen any morning star tempests? nope, because morningstars are worse than khopeshes and scimitars. Still no one is asking for making morningstars better or give them special feats. same with throwing weapons - shurikens now have the best synergy - deal with it.

I wouldn't mind making some new feats for throwers to make each of them quite unigue, but simply taking shuriken expertise and applying it to other throwers is nothing more than obvious power grab.

[Grace_ana]

and? have u seen any morning star tempests? nope, because morningstars are worse than khopeshes and scimitars. Still no one is asking for making morningstars better or give them special feats. same with throwing weapons - shurikens now have the best synergy - deal with it.

I wouldn't mind making some new feats for throwers to make each of them quite unigue, but simply taking shuriken expertise and applying it to other throwers is nothing more than obvious power grab.

To make a shuriken build work, you really need to have monk levels as well for the ninja enhancements. That's why it was pointed out than putting some thrower tings in enhancements wasn't enough, because others have enhancements and feats.

Now, if your claim was that the only way to have a workable tempest was to have a build that included only scimitars - that's it - and also have three levels of pally, that would be more comparable. That's not a power grab; that's pointing out the ridiculousness of the narrow margins thrower build work with.

Maybe you should try to run some thrower builds.

[Gauthaag]

To make a shuriken build work, you really need to have monk levels as well for the ninja enhancements. That's why it was pointed out than putting some thrower tings in enhancements wasn't enough, because others have enhancements and feats.

Now, if your claim was that the only way to have a workable tempest was to have a build that included only scimitars - that's it - and also have three levels of pally, that would be more comparable. That's not a power grab; that's pointing out the ridiculousness of the narrow margins thrower build work with.

Maybe you should try to run some thrower builds.

I have run enough shuricannon variations to be able estimate what power output could expanding shuriken expertise to other throwers bring.

and if u don't like my Morningstar example, what about light n heavy nonrepeating crossbows - they need some love too.

Anyway, like I said I m not against any change, but saying its definitely needed asap is quite exaggerating when there are still more important changes left.

[Coyopa]

Definitely a bug that needs to be fixed! it's on the know issues list. How great would it be to be able to use it well after it's debugged and with a 'throwing dagger expertise' feat?

It's only on the known issues list because I threatened to bump a thread every day until it got added to the known issues list. This required me to follow through on my threat about three times or so and then Cordovan apparently got tired of seeing the thread hit the top of the list every day.

I would very much like to see other types of throwing weapons be a viable choice, other than just always having to use shurikens. My thrower, currently, is 12 ranger/7 bard/1 arti. However, since I have a Celestia for that character, he no longer gets the swashbuckling bonuses to doubleshot and such. I have currently planned a 13 monk/6 ranger/1 rogue life for him next, but the problem is that this will force me to regularly uncenter since I have a very nice ML 27 Solar Throwing Hammer of Improved Disruption that I use on most undead (not zombies; shurikens are just faster, even without the disruption or undead bane). So, I'll be looking for other combinations to choose from, though I'll quite miss the bard levels for the spells and other abilities it brought.

[goldengibblet]

I have run enough shuricannon variations to be able estimate what power output could expanding shuriken expertise to other throwers bring.

Not nearly enough it seems, because you seem to be unaware of the fact that Shuriken are the only weapon that benefits from something called "Advanced Ninja training" which allows for a monk specifically throwing only shuriken to get a percentage chance for a extra shuriken twice. Once for shuriken expertise and then again for "advanced Ninja training". Remember that fact from all those 'variations' of shuricannon you ran? huh? do you? Not only that, And what does that mean?

Well it means that a character running a monk shuricannon or it's variations would get twice the double shot of a of a character with 'dart expertise' or 'axe expertise', perhaps you missed that TWICE THE DOUBLE SHOT. Tell me, I'm curious how many shuricannon variations have you played? and how could you forget that little fact? the very basis for the shuricannon???? Or were you just glossing over it because you thought: hey these guys shouldn't get stuff, I want stuff, I will just pull the words 'power grab' out of my ear and try to ruin any chances they have by misrepresenting that facts and attempting to warp the message.

If you weren't just trying to be a jerk and screw with people for whatever your motive is you would have read the first posts, where Zeb and other specifically covered how it would just be 'throwing expertise', and that shurikens using Advanced Ninja training would still have the superior rate of projectiles.

I really hate people who just hop into threads just to see if they can screw things up for the thread participants with blatant trolling and misrepresentations of the facts, I wish Cordovan would kick people off who HABITUALLY DO IT.

It's only on the known issues list because I threatened to bump a thread every day until it got added to the known issues list. This required me to follow through on my threat about three times or so and then Cordovan apparently got tired of seeing the thread hit the top of the list every day.

I would very much like to see other types of throwing weapons be a viable choice, other than just always having to use shurikens. My thrower, currently, is 12 ranger/7 bard/1 arti. However, since I have a Celestia for that character, he no longer gets the swashbuckling bonuses to doubleshot and such. I have currently planned a 13 monk/6 ranger/1 rogue life for him next, but the problem is that this will force me to regularly uncenter since I have a very nice ML 27 Solar Throwing Hammer of Improved Disruption that I use on most undead (not zombies; shurikens are just faster, even without the disruption or undead bane). So, I'll be looking for other combinations to choose from, though I'll quite miss the bard levels for the spells and other abilities it brought.

Wow, thanks for getting it on the know issues list for us man! No doubt that a separate 'throwing X expertise' for each weapon type could really benefit the game and make throwers, while not equal, at least viable to play with other characters. People who say, power grab, or flavor builds really don't know what they are talking about, and it makes me sad to see the input and experience of people like you buried under that type of garbage.. so keep up the good work!

i don't think it's less achievable to have a few feats for different items. At the very least, it's not unreasonable to propose it. They've coded new feats repeatedly, even recently. I don't really want to see no difference between every single kind of throwing weapon.




These aren't remotely logical.

The first two complaints would kill thrower builds completely, end of story, rip. The third is laughable. Power grabs...for thrower builds? Because they are so op? Let me tell you, even with the things you cite, a non-shuriken thrower build is at best a third of the damage of any other comparable build. I know, i've tested. It's crazy how gimp they are.

qft!

[Attropos]

See this is just the type of thing that makes the forum community so dysfunctional. First you try to casually discredit the idea and undercut it by spouting some more ideas that have nothing to do with the suggested idea of expertise. Then you bring up +1s here and there to make it more confusing. Then you talk down about people wanting it, ignoring the fact that the lack of expertise cause the majority of the 'dont care', then throw in an insulting little 'not signed' just to be rude.... all very confusing... until:

You finally admit that you really don't want it to happen because it might interfere with a caster pass, and all the previous **** was just to screw up a thread because you are afraid that something for other players may stop you from getting what you want.

Really really obnoxious behavior. Oh, and BTW the parting 'flavor and few' comment? totally divorced from reality and just petty snark on your behalf.

All that? perfect example of the kind of garbage that makes it so hard to even discuss things on the forums, you should learn to behave like an adult or stop posting.

The thing about development is that it is a give and take. I happen to agree with the person you are responding to, and for the very reason you are saying, because dev time is extremely limited and doing one means less time for another.

There is an entire playstyle that is currently unplayable with a very few, extremely fringe cases. Dc casting. Either saves or spell pen are completely out of control in LE content (ie only a hugely multi-tr'd/specced/geared dc caster can do anything in LE). I would much rather have dev time focused on reviving a certain playstyle than spending time improving playstyles with an already viable build (shurikens).

It's not that I wouldn't like to see more options for throwers, and I wholeheartedly agree that it would be nice for throwers to have options other than shurikens, but there are some core issues with playstyles that need to be addressed first before throwing weapons.

Throwing weapons are a subsection of ranged. There are multiple examples of ranged builds. There is one throwiing build in particular. It would be nice to have some diversity there, but when your options for casters (which are almost a 3rd of possible classes) are bad DPS builds (with the exception of a warlock who has good survivability and ok dps) or nothing, you have to address that first.

/notsigned

[Avocado]

See this is just the type of thing that makes the forum community so dysfunctional. First you try to casually discredit the idea and undercut it by spouting some more ideas that have nothing to do with the suggested idea of expertise. Then you bring up +1s here and there to make it more confusing. Then you talk down about people wanting it, ignoring the fact that the lack of expertise cause the majority of the 'dont care', then throw in an insulting little 'not signed' just to be rude.... all very confusing... until:

You finally admit that you really don't want it to happen because it might interfere with a caster pass, and all the previous **** was just to screw up a thread because you are afraid that something for other players may stop you from getting what you want.

Really really obnoxious behavior. Oh, and BTW the parting 'flavor and few' comment? totally divorced from reality and just petty snark on your behalf.

All that? perfect example of the kind of garbage that makes it so hard to even discuss things on the forums, you should learn to behave like an adult or stop posting.

The forum is dysfunctional because everyone wants something different. It is the nature of every forum for every game. Don't call out DDO on being the only one of its kind. DDO is mild compared to LOL or WOW.

I guess you misunderstood my post. The current trend is to add little fixes to classes with each update. I am saying that in regards to those little fixes they can add those throwing things. However, I dont see any other thrower options becoming viable without a full fledged update to the play style. I dont want to see a whole update devoted to throwers because its a waste of time. Its a neat flavor style to be sure but it isnt worth precious dev time. I think were lucky Turbine is still making content. It may seem doom and gloomy, but the devs saying they dont want to make anymore full passes for classes screams bad news to me. The minimal changes that came with arti were a joke. Turbine does not have the resources to be making flavor styles viable and to make core DDO mechanics be useful again.

Making spells viable in epics is not something I want. It is something that is needed for the game to survive. If Turbine keeps neglecting casters this game is going to go south quick. If they neglect a play style that is for flavor, it will not ruin the game.

tl:dr
All forums are dysfunctional. Get used to it.

This change (regarding more thrower feats) is not something is wholeheartedly going to make the game better.

[Avocado]

I have couple logical objections:

1) improved precise shot - its clearly nonsense that thrown projectile can go thru several enemies and inflict still same dmg. I would suggest exclude thrown weapons from IPS
2) expertise feats as suggested and shuriken expertise shouldn't work with returning weapons - u cant simply throw multiple projectiles if u re holding just one. No problems with stacks of ammunition

and third - its just obvious try to gain more power. shuriken has its expertise feat but no futher support. daggers are heavily supported in assassin tree, axes by dwarf tywa enhancements and LD destiny.

No. Dont make changes to IPS. It is one of the only things keeping rangers alive. Its a skillful feat and requires a bit of actual effort to get to work effectively. Good rangers are always trying to move around and align targets to get maximum damage.

I dont see how they would implement a system that would be viable for throwers if returning weapons didnt work on expertise feats. How are named throwing weapons supposed to be at all useful? This is a step in the opposite direction and will make no one play throwing builds.

Trowing weapons are supported in other trees but not to nearly the same extent as shurikens. The support for thrown weapons in other trees besides monk are there to make viability out of using thrown weapons if you have no other choice but still want to be useful in a fight. Say for crystals in shroud/FOT, Miorr in HH (for those w/o evasion), and range rangers on cliffs. Im sure there are others but those are few I thought of.